Some help with Ocean Forest...

[su44us]

I was preparing for my next grow, and I have decided to go with Fox Farms Ocean Forest potting soil. I also have a large bag of perlite.

Fox Farms claims that it is a well aerated soil with good drainage that doesn't need to be mixed with anything.

I had been planning to mix 2-1 Ocean Forest(66%) to perlite(33%), but someone else suggested that I should go higer with the perlite.. Maybe even as high as 50% (sounds too high to me).

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what would be an optimal mix for Ocean Forest? Should I add lime? Anything else?

I really screwed up with my first potting mix, and I am determined to do it right this time. Eventually I will probably create my own mixes, but for now, I want to eliminate soil conditions as possible source of problems while I focus on learning other aspects of the grow.

Thanks for taking the time to help.

 

[sproutco]

I don't really like ocean forest soil. They add nutrients so this leaves you guessing when you should add additional ferts in your water and what might be starting to get missing in nutrition. Here is a post I made a few months ago. Take a look.

My original soil mix was 1 part 1/4"-3/8" composted pinebark + 1 part perlite + maybe a little peatmoss for more moisture retention. You could use 1 part peatmoss and 2 parts perlite. Both mixes are fluffy and have good aeration for indoors. Indoors, plants do not dry out like they would in the sun and heat.

You would use 2 pounds of lime per cubic yard of pinebark and 3 pounds of lime per cubic yard of peatmoss(1 pound of powdered dolomite lime is about 1 1/2 cups or 72 teaspoons). This is a low rate of lime because it is better to underlime than overlime. No lime is needed for vermiculite or perlite. 1 pound of gypsum per yard is added for sulfur(1 pound powdered gypsum = 2 cups or 96 teaspoons). Make sure it is powdered dolomite lime. There are 27 cubic feet in a yard. On a small scale, you could put the bark or peatmoss in a bucket. Measure the radius of the bucket and height. Radius x radius x 3.14 x height = cubic inches 1728 cubic inches is a cubic foot For example, we want to add 2 pounds of lime per yard. The bucket is 14 inches in diameter and 12 inches high. 7 radius x 7 radius x 3.14 x 12 height = 1846 cubic inches 1846/1728 = 1.07 cubic feet 1.07/27 yards x 72 teaspoons x 2 pounds = 5.7 teaspoons of lime mixed into the bucket. If you used a square shape, length x width x height = volume in cubic inches. The final soil mix is not limed only the acidic components that need lime like the bark or peatmoss. Once you have the lime and gypsum added to the peatmoss or bark, mix well with the perlite or vermiculite (like you wanted to use) and water thoroughly, let sit for a week. Take 1 part soil and 1 part distilled water and stir. after 30 minutes use your ph meter and test. More lime can be added if needed. You should aim for 5.6 to 6.2 ph with 5.8 best in the nutrient solution and soil.

If mixing your soil is a hassle try fafard 3 or promix. Fafard for sure adds lime and gypsum to there mixes. Promix also has lime added but may not have gypsum. Some of the promixes are too heavy and retain too much moisture because they contain alot of peatmoss. Promix hp (or high porosity) may be there best mix to try. You could easily just add more perlite to further add aeration to these mixes if needed like what lemonade is doing.

The original peatlite formulas were 1/2 peatmoss + 1/2 perlite or 1/2 peatmoss and 1/2 vermiculite. The guys name was Boodley at Cornell university that created them. Both mixes are heavy and probably retain too much water for indoor use but are good for outdoors in hot weather. Thats why I use perlite instead of vermiculite indoors because it does not hold too much water. Today, pinebark is added to soilless mixes because it suppresses disease and can be found cheaper than peatmoss. 35% bark or more is good.

I feed my plants at every watering. You would use 50 parts per million (ppm) nitrogen for small seedlings and 100 ppm nitrogen for regular growing. In vegetative growth in good light, I might raise this to 150 ppm nitrogen. Of course, your nutrient solution would contain more than just nitrogen. The higher the nitrate nitrogen the better. Avoid urea/ammonia. 60%+ nitrate nitrogen is best.

Formulating your own nutrient solutions is fun. You will have to learn to measure your fertilizer in parts per million/so many grams of fertilizer per liter of water. You will need a gram scale and "round up" ingredients for a "recipe". Find a good hydroponic book and it should explain how to mix up nutrient solutions following a formula. If this is a hassle, try 20-10-20 peatlite/soilless fertilizer by masterblend or peters. You can find this using the internet for about $20 plus shipping for a 25 pound bag. It is 60% nitrate nitrogen and that is good. It also has elevated levels of micronutrients versus just regular formulations. You will still need a gram scale and learn parts per million. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=31505

Ph of your nutrient solution is important. You need a good ph meter. Like I said before 5.8 ph is best. When you apply a 5.8 ph solution to the soil, the ph of the soil will rise or lower toward this. Eventually it also will be 5.8 You can use sulfuric acid to lower the ph of the solution. You can get this at the auto parts store. Just ask for battery acid or sometimes called qual. Be very careful handling. To raise the ph of the solution, use lye/sodium hydroxide from the grocery store. You will find that you need very little of either to change the ph. You may have to make a stock of maybe 1 teaspoon of either mixed with 1 gallon of water (3.8L). Then add an ounce or two of this stock to your nutrient solution. You will have to titrate/experiment on how much is needed before you find your recipe. This may take many tries at first of too much or too little.

It is probably best you do not add blood meal or bonemeal or anything else other than the lime and gypsum into the soil before you plant. You do not know how much nutrients are present and being released. You end up having to guess at what to add in your nutrient solution. By leaving out added nutrients mixed into the soil, you control what the plants get through your nutrient solution exactly.

How often to water is easy when you use soilless mix. When wet it will be heavy and when dry will become lighter in weight and color. You can just lift a pot and be able to know how much water is there. Eventually, you find a schedule when you will know when water is needed. As the plants roots fill the container, you will begin to have to water more often. As a rule, it is better to have to water more often than have the plant just sitting wet for days and not drying out. That is why you want a light fluffy soil mix.

Be sure to read the links in my signature.

 

[baccas125]

I find that the Ocean forest doesn't hold enuff water. I only add maybe 10% perlite to the mix.

 

[su44us]

Hey sproutco... When you say That I should mix my nutes at 5.8 PH I get confused... In the sick plants thread, it states that Magnesium gets locked out starting at 6.4 and lower in soil. The chart that came with my PHup PHdown kit from GH shows that at 5.8 is on the low side for everything except iron, manganese, boron, zinc. Especially magnesium and phospherous.





(click to enlarge)

This soil PH availability chart (which matches the one I have from GH) would seem to show that PH of 6.5 would be ideal... It seems to me that at 6.5 you catch the fattest part of most of the elements on the chart.

I am just curious as to what leads you to feel that a PH of 5.8 is optimal when I haven't been able to find any sources that show me this.

I know that PH availabity in soil is very different from hydroponics, and that PH is to be kept much lower in a hydro setup.

I'm not trying to step on your toes here.. Just trying to initiate a dialogue which may help me to understand this better.

:smile:

 

[warped]

I use the ocean forest and add roughly the same as baccus, I dont add any lime, just the perlite. Ocean forest is the cats ass. 6.5 is what you want for soil.

 

[sproutco]

I am just curious as to what leads you to feel that a PH of 5.5 is optimal when I haven't been able to find any sources that show me this.

Just because you find information typed somewhere or in a chart does not mean its correct. Ph 5.6 to 6.2 in soilless mix and 6 to 6.5 in soil are good ranges to aim for.

 

[Angel Eyes]

More grows have been ruined by complicated methods than have been ruined by keeping things simple.

I just plant my plants in plain Ocean Forest. I add a little FF Peace of Mind dry fertilizer at bud set (maybe a tablespoon into a one-gallon pot, and then I add a little more FF Peace of Mind at about 2-3 weeks into flowering. That's it, and my plants are healthy and happy and produce plentiful buds given the space and light limits I work with.

I honestly think the complicated graphs and formulas and mixtures and nutritional regimens are more for the grower than they are for the plant. Just give the plant a rich, well-rounded soil, and don't try to max out your nutritional levels. Good light, good ventilation, and TLC beat complicated soil recipes any day. Water thoroughly, and then let the soil get fairly dry and light, then repeat watering. It's easier for you, and much easier on the plant.

I think that most of the complicated methods are more for us humans to avoid boredom than they are for the plant's health. Try one run of keeping it simple, and watch the results. I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[su44us]

Just because you find information typed somewhere or in a chart does not mean its correct. Ph 5.6 to 6.2 in soilless mix and 6 to 6.5 in soil are good ranges to aim for.

Comon sproutco.. No need to get quippy..

I'm just trying to learn. \And keep in mind, what you have posted here is also "some information someone typed somewhere".. and it conflicts with several other sources, including General Hydroponics, whom I don't think makes a practice of making stuff up to look cool :smile: .

For the record, I don't think anyone here is making anything up for any reason whatsoever... Or even that anyone is wrong..

There is merely a discrepency in information between two respectable sources and I would like clarification..

FYI... If I didn't respect your advice, I would ignore, not question...

 

[sproutco]

I really don't understand what your questioning I said.

 

[su44us]

I really don't understand what your questioning I said.

I was questioning why it is you believe that 5.8 should be the target PH in a soil grow..

I expected an educated response that would help me understand the difference between what you say, and what other souces seem to tell me.

I never thought you were "wrong".. I just wanted to know your reasoning.

 

[sproutco]

Here is a quote from the University of Kentucky. Texas Tech and Ohio state university also have easily accesible internet threads that suggest about 5.6 to 6.2 for soilless mixes. Its just based on the availability of all the nutrients. Of course a soil grow, using mineral soil like outdoors, would require a higher ph.

As a general guideline, most woody ornamentals crops produced in soilless mix, desire a pH of 5.5 to 6.2 for optimum plant growth. This generality is not true for all woody ornamental nursery crops, some prefer higher or lower pH. Solubility of mineral nutrients are affected by substrate pH. Iron, manganes, boron, copper, and zinc are most soluble when pH is above 5.0 and below 5.5. On the contrary, as pH increases greater than 6.5, the availability of iron, manganese, boron, copper, and zinc decrease and micronutrient deficiencies symptoms begin to appear. Chlorosis is an indication that the pH is too high.

http://www.ca.uky.edu/HLA/Dunwell/SoillessSubstratemgt.html

The entire link you should take a look at. I have not read it entirely because it just regurgitates something I already know.

 

[sproutco]

Here is something about soils not soilless by Clemson university.

The pH value of soil is one of a number of environmental conditions that affects the quality of plant growth. The soil pH value directly affects nutrient availability. Plants thrive best in different soil pH ranges. Azaleas, rhododendrons, blueberries and conifers thrive best in acid soils (pH 5.0 to 5.5). Vegetables, grasses and most ornamentals do best in slightly acidic soils (pH 5.8 to 6.5). Soil pH values above or below these ranges may result in less vigorous growth and nutrient deficiencies.

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC1650.htm

 

[su44us]

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC1650.htm

Thanks sproutco! The difference in planting mediums and requirements of different kinds of plants is exactly along the lines of what I was looking for.

I hope I didn't offend.. I tend to be brutally efficient when it comes to knowledge farming..

:friends:

 

[sproutco]

You can also find wrong charts.(and information) This one is from texas tech. You can see its too low. It has since been updated.

An Evaluation of pH for Soilless Growing Media

Extremely low 4.5 or less
Very low 4.6 - 4.7
Low 4.8 - 4.9
Slightly low 5.0 - 5.1
Optimum 5.2 - 5.5
Slightly high 5.6 - 5.8
High 5.9 - 6.3
Very high 6.4 - 6.8
Extremely high 6.9 and higher

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/GREENHOUSE/NURSERY/GUIDES/ghhdbk/ph.html

 

[su44us]

More grows have been ruined by complicated methods than have been ruined by keeping things simple.

I just plant my plants in plain Ocean Forest. I add a little FF Peace of Mind dry fertilizer at bud set (maybe a tablespoon into a one-gallon pot, and then I add a little more FF Peace of Mind at about 2-3 weeks into flowering. That's it, and my plants are healthy and happy and produce plentiful buds given the space and light limits I work with.

I honestly think the complicated graphs and formulas and mixtures and nutritional regimens are more for the grower than they are for the plant. Just give the plant a rich, well-rounded soil, and don't try to max out your nutritional levels. Good light, good ventilation, and TLC beat complicated soil recipes any day. Water thoroughly, and then let the soil get fairly dry and light, then repeat watering. It's easier for you, and much easier on the plant.

I think that most of the complicated methods are more for us humans to avoid boredom than they are for the plant's health. Try one run of keeping it simple, and watch the results. I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised.

This is exactly my thinking, not necessarily that micromanagement is a bad thing... Just that I want to go as simple as possible.. Once I get experienced with just growing healthy plants, and feel more confident, I plan on experimenting with all kinds of growing methods.. From mixing my own soil, to soilless and hydro systems and trying to maximize yeild.

Right now.. I am so green, when something starts to go wrong, it requires hours of research and hand wringing before I begin to make headway on a problem.

I appreciate sprout's advice, and have bookmarked several threads of his already for future use.

Lots of really knowledgable people around here.. Hopefully, in couple years, I can repay all the help by helping others learn.

 

[sproutco]

I don't really like ocean forest soil. They add nutrients so this leaves you guessing when you should add additional ferts in your water and what might be starting to get missing in nutrition.

If your trying to get a good crop in and not be guessing, you should not use ocean forest and go totally soilless. Reread my post about how to make a soilless mix and the other suggestions.

 

[su44us]

If your trying to get a good crop in and not be guessing, you should not use ocean forest and go totally soilless. Reread my post about how to make a soilless mix and the other suggestions.

I am also really trying to go completely organic. Right now, PH UP/DOWN are the only non organic things I am using. Do you think it will be more difficult to go organic in a soilless grow?

 

[Guest]

I use Fox Farm soils and my plants love it. What I do is:
1 bag of F.F.O.F
1 bag of light warrior(gives myochrozie fungi and nice large chunky perlite)
mix well
I don't add anything to it and my plants have always seemed very happy in it. When you water , it drains very well however make sure to let this soil dry out pretty good in between waterings(but not to the point of wilting) otherwise you'll start to see some nute lock out probs. , don't ask me why but thats what happens. This mix will feed your plants for a month(in VEG that is) before you need to start adding liquid ferts. In flowering I go right into a half strength nute solution with every other feeding or every third feeding. Personally I would recommend getting fox farm nutes as well , they seem to work really well in conjunction with the soil. The shit's expensive but it's worth it , especially if you use like I explained. Imho Fox Farm soil is the cat's ass.

 

[B.C.]

K.I.S.S.

K.I.S.S.

I use around 30% perlite in my o.f.I reckon I do water more often than if I only used say 10% but that's ok,the more ya water the more air gets to the roots and if there's one thing that I've learned about growing our favorite plant is that it loves lot of fresh air around it roots,hydro or soil. In soil there is an added plus though because the miroherd thrives with all that extra air.Btw all the mirco critters ya need (micor.,trac derma ect.) is already in o.f.no need to add light warrior(unless ya jus want to).When ya first start growin it's best to keep it simple stoner=kiss we all heard this right? 2 cents take care...BC

 

[sproutco]

I am also really trying to go completely organic. Right now, PH UP/DOWN are the only non organic things I am using. Do you think it will be more difficult to go organic in a soilless grow?

Get your basic soilless mix like the 1/3 peatmoss + 2/3 perlite I suggested or promix. You want little dol. lime because your adding cal mag in your water. Then use the flora nova series ferts. They are excellent. 1 bottle grow and 1 bottle bloom. You can always tinker.

Flora nova series
• The marriage of hydroponic & organic gardening methods.
• Extremely easy to use.
• Outstanding for all plant types.
• Superb for Hydroponic, Soil-less, and Soil Cultivation.
• Super Concentrated and pH Stabilized.
• Optimum nutrient absorption is aided by Natural Humic Extracts.


the following specs are in N-P-K-Mg format
Flora Nova Bloom 4-8-7-2
Flora Nova Grow 7-4-10-1.5

ml per gallon (3.8L) of water; numbers are in parts per million

8ml GH Micro 16 ml GH Bloom, is my guru pH's baseline bloom formula (pH is a person) derived from the Mel Frank targets, which suggest a 100-100-200-60 goal for NPKMG values in bloom Both GH Flora series nutes and the Flora Nova series, achieve Mel Franks targets without additives. Here is a link to Mel's specs http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fo...es/profiles.htm
pH's "Lucas Formula" values for 8ml micro, 16ml bloom
n 130
p 106
k 183
Mg 73

8ml Flora Nova grow. Flora Nova is the one bottle solution to nutrients, note this mix is almost identical to Canna Aqua Vega, and GrowGreen's Nute Recipe
n 217
p 54
k 257
Mg 46

8ml fnBloom
n 124
p 108
k 180
Mg 62

Only use 3 to 4ml on seedlings of the grow formula.

How's that for easy.