Solis-Tek 10k "Finisher" vs CMH and UVB penetration.

[febisfebi]

So I currently run 2 hortilux HPS bulbs in cool tube reflectors in my flower room. I got the cool tube reflectors to have minimal drag to the air blowing through. My temp is great right now, and I dont need AC. I am however looking to widen my spectrum, and add some UV rays to increase resin production. I have been looking at using 2 400w CMH bulbs, which I already have ballasts for, but after doing some more research I have found that although CMH has an impressive wide spectrum, it doesnt appear to do much UV spectrum, below 400nm, where the human eye cant see and is harmful to the skin. there are actually laws against making street lamps and such without UV filtered glass. Solis-tek is the only bulb I have found that has a really impressive uv spectrum, and is specially made with glass that lets UV pass thru.
https://www.420magazine.com/forums/g...ighting-8.html
I have been reading about this bulb, and I have few questions:

Why is this bulb called the "finisher" it looks like it would be the perfect addition in a 2-1 configuration with HPS thru the whole flower cycle, since it has super UV and most of the blue spectrum, but teeters down towards the red/yellow, that is well covered by the HPS. Why would you not want UV light until the last week or three?

UV light penetration. Since I am using cooled hoods on my existing lights, I would love to have a cooled hood that doesnt block UV, but we cant all get what we want, so it looks like barebulb as far as I can tell. I am reading that any sort of glass even boroscilate, blocks UV rays. Even CMH bulbs seem to be made of glass that would block some of the UV. Solis-tek is the only bulb I know of that uses "Low-E" or Low Iron Glass, specifically to let UV pass through. Am I stuck using barebulb if I want UV? or does anyone make a cooled hood with this "low-E" low iron glass?
Then again, this guy says that regular Boroscilate glass doesnt contain any iron anyways.
http://www.rollitup.org/t/eye-hortilux-vs-sunpulse-high-times-says-hortilux-death.376849/page-4
So what does that really mean, "low iron" or not, they seem to have a bulb that supposedly has more UV than any other bulb on the market. But we havent seen an independent spetrometer reading for this bulb yet.

If I do end up going barebulb, how hot does this bulb burn compared with CMH or other HID lights you might be using? CMH is supposed to be very efficient, not only because it has more usable light than other HID lights, but people say it burns much cooler than your average 400w HPS or MH. This bulb seems to blow the CMH out of the water for horticultural purposes, particularly those that could benefit from UV, which is exciting because I thought CMH was the next best thing that everyone would be using before long, but it looks to me like we have something better available. I have not heard anything about how hot it burns. I am hoping to run a 1000w DE but Might be convinced to run a 600 instead if the heat is gonna be too much. Should I plan on needing AC? I would rather know upfront if this is a monster to cool. I am hoping to get away with upgrading my intake and exhaust fans, and putting the cooltubes on a separate circuit. aka separate fan/ducting. I am hoping to hear from people currently using this bulb in their setup.

From My research this bulb is supposed to run on a Pulse start ballast, which to me means a MH magnetic ballast. Unless of course you buy a Solis-Tek electronic ballast. Is this just an advertising scheme, or do I need a magnetic MH ballast if I dont want to buy their E-ballast?

They also they make a Double End version of this bulb, which is what I will probably end up using. I have an electronic ballast made for Double End Bulbs, but it is not made by Solis-Tek. I assume this will work just fine for the solis-Tek 10k DE bulb, but I wanted to make sure. since they seem so specific on what kind of ballast to use, but I suspect that is mostly marketing.

Thanks for any light you can shed on this lamp. I was dead set on 2 400w CMH fixtures, but this is starting to look better and better. I just want to know how it works in the real world.

 

[Granger2]

I've seen improvement using these for 2 hours in the middle of 12/12 cycle as supplemental to my air cooled HPS's. I hang them bare bulb vertical, 2 in a 3x3 stall. -granger
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00061V53Y?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

 

[Phaeton]

CMH is the closest to sunlight, plants love it.

Those bulbs with the glass that passes UVA are just high color temperature bulbs. As far as the plant cares UVA and actinic blue are 100% interchangeable, it is UVB that makes a difference and it is not available in residential discharge lamps.

LEDs that advertise UV are also talking UVA and it does not make a difference unless it is the only source of blue. UVB is not available in plant growth LEDs for sale to civilians.

Pretty much the only source of useful UVB is the lizard light T5 and T8's.

Arcadia D3+ T5 puts out 250 uw (microwatts) of UVB at ten inches.
Zoo Med Reptisun 10 T5 puts out 200 uw at ten inches
Zoo Med Reptisun 10 T8 puts out 85 uw at ten inches.

Plants that respond to UVB need at least 100 uw for the effect to be realized.
Many plants do not respond well, indica's come from areas without the hard sunlight needed for high UVB and did not evolve to use it.

I recently killed an indica by putting it in with the sativa's in a high UVB (360 uw) budding area. That much UVB also stunts the sativa and the yield is 20% less than the same plant without the UVB.

I personally think it is worth the reduction. Others deem me foolish for giving up the weight.
The commercial area has 120 uw UVB and is a nice compromise. Full growth is attained and the creeper effect is strong enough to still be noticed.

 

[olekingkole]

Granger2, how close to the end do you start using the reptile bulbs? I use them the last two weeks for the entire 12 hours of lights on, but 2 hours would be safer if that's sufficient. I run a perpetual garden and burning nearby, less mature plants is an issue. These lamps really kick out UVB.
I've measured both the reptile bulbs and the Solis-tek 10k bulbs with a UV meter. The Solis-tek 10k does not put out enough UVB to matter, but it is good for improving the final color of buds. The reptile bulbs put out significant UVB and seem to increase potency about 10-15% in the samples I've had lab tested.

 

[febisfebi]

http://www.lighting.philips.com/mai...band/uvb-broadband-tl/928010001201_EU/product

These should throw the reptile bulbs out of the water. in terms of UVB output. 40w of 100% UVB per tube. Nice!. reptile bulbs are mas 10% uvb, and 30% UVA, and the rest, who knows/cares. reptile bulbs are obviously cheaper, but you could use way less of these philips tubes I imagine, since they run at least $50 each.
They have a wideband and a narrowband. I assume the wide would be better but maybe its the other way around?
http://www.lighting.philips.com/mai...nd/uv-b-narrowband-tl/928010000101_EU/product
heres the link to the narrowband. might just be that more power in the specific nm vicinity is better, but I always go for SPD in regular lights. UVB might be different.
these philips tubes are only good for 600hrs, how does that compare to the effective life of reptile bulbs? they are supposed to be 6 month max, but i dont know what kind of light cycle. how many hours are they good for?

 

[timmur]

Check out these mercury vapor lamps and this write up.

 

[febisfebi]

okay so a 275 watt MV lamp puts out MINIMUM distance setting of 24" will produce approximately 150-200 microwatts per square centimeter (uW/cm2) of UVB and 900-1200uW/cm2 of UVA.

the philips tube puts out 2.4w total of UVB. Do you know how to do the conversion? how many square cm are we talking about?
What sort of usable UVB output life do these MV lamps get? it looks like from the graphs they have, the BM2 100w version has pretty decent output still after 6000 hours? is that right?

These radiate a lot of heat, what kind of distance would you keep a 275w and how much area should it cover?
Thanks

 

[Phaeton]

http://www.lighting.philips.com/mai...band/uvb-broadband-tl/928010001201_EU/product

These should throw the reptile bulbs out of the water. in terms of UVB output. 40w of 100% UVB per tube. Nice!. reptile bulbs are mas 10% uvb, and 30% UVA, and the rest, who knows/cares. reptile bulbs are obviously cheaper, but you could use way less of these philips tubes I imagine, since they run at least $50 each.
They have a wideband and a narrowband. I assume the wide would be better but maybe its the other way around?
http://www.lighting.philips.com/mai...nd/uv-b-narrowband-tl/928010000101_EU/product
heres the link to the narrowband. might just be that more power in the specific nm vicinity is better, but I always go for SPD in regular lights. UVB might be different.
these philips tubes are only good for 600hrs, how does that compare to the effective life of reptile bulbs? they are supposed to be 6 month max, but i dont know what kind of light cycle. how many hours are they good for?

I have done some research over the years on UVB and plants. The Phillip's narrow bandwidth UVB puts out 3 watts of UVB at 315 nm, which is at the edge of the correct frequency and coincidentally is the same amount put out by a T8 Reptisun 10, 3 watts of UVB, except the Reptisun 10 also outputs 8 watts of UVA which could be a plus if not supplied by other lighting.

The Phillip's wide band UVB bulb puts out UVB from 270 nm through 380 nm. Any frequency shorter than 315 nm damages the plant with no useful properties at all, none.
These are therapy lights with specific frequencies to inhibit microscopic organisms and will inhibit plant growth as well.

Available bulbs for lizards that will work with plants at the proper distance:
Arcadia D3+ T5, 6.5 watts UVB, 13 watts UVA.
Reptisun 10 T5, 5.4 watts UVB, 12 watts UVA.
Reptisun 10 T8, 3 watts UVB, 8 watts UVA.

What reflector is used can triple what hits the leaf or can halve what hits the leaf.
White enamel reflectors absorb 100% of UV and will cut the output in half. Polished aluminum reflects 95% of UV and can triple what hits the leaf, depending on design.

For lower level UVB two lights which could be used as stand alone grow lights:
Florasun by Zoo Med puts out red dominate full spectrum which includes a half percent UVB (same as the sun) and 2% UVA (less than the sun) and is an excellent sidelight.
Naturesun (formerly Reptisun 2.0) is a full spectrum bulb with a color rendering index of 98, which contains 2% UVB, four times natural sunlight levels but close to correct when used as a supplement with higher powered growlights.

UV is scattered more than blue in the sky and almost as much comes from the horizon as comes from the sun. Plants evolved to use this diffuse glow and any focused direct UV bothers them greatly.

 

[olekingkole]

Where did you get your polished aluminum reflectors? I've found retrofit kits on ebay. Is that what you used?

 

[timmur]

UV is scattered more than blue in the sky and almost as much comes from the horizon as comes from the sun. Plants evolved to use this diffuse glow and any focused direct UV bothers them greatly.

Anyone know of a diffuse reflective material for UVB?

 

[timmur]

Anyone know of a diffuse reflective material for UVB?

I hate to answer myself, but....!

http://anomet.com/aluminum/

 

[Phaeton]

Clones need very low levels of UVB, and not much red for either, picky little things.

White paint absorbs 100% UVB and scatters the rest of the light. An inexpensive T8 shop light has a white enamel reflector, Naturesun (Zoo Med) puts out 2% UVB and the rest is an almost perfect (low intensity) match for the sun at 98% CRI.
The paint absorbs UVB so the plant only receives a dilute bare bulb intensity of UVB while the full spectrum is reflected and focused on the plant. The second bulb can be any high quality growlight, the combination readies the clone for a lifetime of ultraviolet enhanced growing.

There are many ways to light a plant, shoplights are usually about $20 in hardware sections of most department stores or in any Lowes/Home Depot type store. A Naturesun bulb is about $12 at Petco.
I doubt a less expensive system for UV on clones is available.

The Florasun T8 bulbs put out a half percent of UVB and a pair of them work great on clones also, but they cost twice as much and the clones don't use most of the enhanced red portion.

I am all hyped up on the subject right now. I have just finished a room for autoflowers and am dialing in the lights for the initial grow. The plants will be staying in the same room with the same lights their entire life and consistency from their first days to their last is going to make or break the harvests.
Studying autoflowers grown by members shows an alarming tendency towards 3 to 5 ounce yields. That will not do at all, I have a nine ounce minimum yield.
If I cannot reach that goal then I will have a new vegging room with excellent lighting.
Anyway, that is why I am posting so much on light lately, my brain is churning nonstop and new input helps slow it to realistic goals.

Changing the basic spectrum causes disruption and the plant takes a pause in growing while it adapts to new lighting.
Often if a wavelength has been missing and is added later the benefits are be greater than the losses, but... if the frequency supplied by the 'finisher' bulb is available earlier then the benefits will be available sooner as well and yields will be up.

The sun provides a steady light and plants have learned to depend on it.
http://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/light.shtml The parts on molecular structure of chlorophyll can be ignored, the charts are interesting.

 

[Riever]

Thanks to all of you - and particularly timmur and Phaeton - for the great info on the UV B aspects of lighting, the better options available to provide it, and how to implement it without overkill. Including the parts about providing at least a modest amount of it (or any supplemental light) throughout the entire grow process, from clones, through veg, and into flower.

For the last few months I've been lurking and following many of your threads concerning lighting as I'm setting up a 13x13x8 flower room on my own. The people I've worked with for the past few years are die-hard "HPS-only" fans, and I was heading down that path for my grow, until I realized that our commercial grow site with 12 foot ceilings was conducive to 1000-watt HPS, but my smaller venture in a much smaller initial space and 8-foot ceiling, wouldn't be as "Gavita-friendly." That's when I started to read, learned about CMH, supplemental lighting issues such as UV B and far red and deep red.

Thanks for all the help with that.

 

[Starmstr]

I use both 1k DE hps and then hang vert 400 10k bulbs or the horti super blue but it is a horizontal bulb hung at 30" above canopy. And YES it does make a difference. Furthermore I use them through out the flower cycle. The things I gain are:
Tighter flowers
Faster finish times... typically 1 week
and I like to think greater Terps/Oil

I would like a good spectrum DE 65-10k bulb!

 

[DrBlaze]

Those bulbs with the glass that passes UVA are just high color temperature bulbs. As far as the plant cares UVA and actinic blue are 100% interchangeable, it is UVB that makes a difference and it is not available in residential discharge lamps.

I've seen some people state that Sunmaster 10k and Solistek 10k are the same, but according to these charts they are very different, and it seems that the Solistek bulbs actually pass through a fair amount of UV.

The charts show that while Sunmaster has no UVB at all, Solistek has a lot of light right down to 350nm where the chart stops, but it looks like it goes even a bit lower.

 

[Phaeton]

I put the UVB meter on a 600 watt Solis Tek 10K finisher bulb.
At 24" the bulb puts out 2 uw (microwatts) of UVB.
The minimum UVB I have found to have an effect is 45 uw, and right around a hundred works better.
This does double what Sun Pulse emits in UVB, their 10K bulb flickered between 0 and 1 uw.

Lizard light fluorescent bulbs are still the choice for UVB.

Other qualities make the Solis Tek my first choice over GE's CMH bulbs. The wide red spectrum is balanced better for MJ.

 

[worm~]

I put the UVB meter on a 600 watt Solis Tek 10K finisher bulb.
At 24" the bulb puts out 2 uw (microwatts) of UVB.
The minimum UVB I have found to have an effect is 45 uw, and right around a hundred works better.
This does double what Sun Pulse emits in UVB, their 10K bulb flickered between 0 and 1 uw.

Lizard light fluorescent bulbs are still the choice for UVB.

Other qualities make the Solis Tek my first choice over GE's CMH bulbs. The wide red spectrum is balanced better for MJ.

Great thread. When it comes time for an equipment upgrade, Solis-Tek is at the top of my list.

Has anyone run the "finishing" bulb through the entire flower cycle? If so, results were...?

What do you think about the ZooMed PowerSun UV mercury vapor bulbs? They are available in 100 or 160 watts. There is a poster here "Subrovka" that is using an Osram 300 watt mercury vapor bulb and claims success.

I have tried the small cfl's and wasn't satisfied...but I want to believe!

worm~

 

[DrBlaze]

I put the UVB meter on a 600 watt Solis Tek 10K finisher bulb.
At 24" the bulb puts out 2 uw (microwatts) of UVB.
The minimum UVB I have found to have an effect is 45 uw, and right around a hundred works better.
This does double what Sun Pulse emits in UVB, their 10K bulb flickered between 0 and 1 uw.

Lizard light fluorescent bulbs are still the choice for UVB.

Other qualities make the Solis Tek my first choice over GE's CMH bulbs. The wide red spectrum is balanced better for MJ.

Hmm...that's a bit of a bummer. Could you tell me Phaeton what nm range you are actually measuring?

I've got a 8x8 flowering area with 3 trees. A 1000w hps overhead and 2 cmh 330w Alstarts running vert in reflectors for side lighting. Based on how nice that graph looked I was going to add the 400w Solistek 10k as a 3rd vert bulb and run it all through flower.

 

[DrBlaze]

What do you think about the ZooMed PowerSun UV mercury vapor bulbs? They are available in 100 or 160 watts. There is a poster here "Subrovka" that is using an Osram 300 watt mercury vapor bulb and claims success.

I tried to investigate these bulbs last year. I was really interested in the higher power, wide dispersal bulbs they make for zoos.

The guy makes you tell him what your setup is before he'll sell you one. I sent an email saying I was actually looking to pick up a couple so I could experiment with using them in indoor gardening. I never got any reply. Maybe I'll have to try again and this time just pretend I have a giant room full of lizards.

 

[timmur]

I tried to investigate these bulbs last year. I was really interested in the higher power, wide dispersal bulbs they make for zoos.

The guy makes you tell him what your setup is before he'll sell you one. I sent an email saying I was actually looking to pick up a couple so I could experiment with using them in indoor gardening. I never got any reply. Maybe I'll have to try again and this time just pretend I have a giant room full of lizards.

Try these. I have four of the 275 watt ones. Very strong and throw lots of heat. Not ideal but it was hard to find ones that would work well in my setup. The guy knows that some people are using them for cannabis application and doesn't care.