soil remineralization: process and discussion

[*Journeyman*]

how about a newer explanation (that doesn't make it right). Here goes. It's Dr. Ingham:

Yeah...but what was 'unleashed' with deep ploughing of the old seabed? Was it the mineral content or sedimented/layered organic matter or a combination of both? Opening up land based hardpan is not the same as seabed that's been covered for like many, many years by the ocean.

 

[*Journeyman*]

From some reading learned that when settlers tilled virgin ground/forest their crops were plentiful and healthy but without any regular inputs or replacement of what they were taking out their yields/crop health eventually declined. They exposed/opened up what was locked up in the native soil then used it up.

 

[jaykush]

interesting JM, i do know that the subsoil is much more mineral rich compared to the topsoil in most parts of the world. usually deep rooted crops accumulate those minerals and bring them up in there leaves, stems, etc... and when they decompose they are added to the topsoil. problem is most commercial crops are not very deep rooted and like said deplete there reserves with continued cultivation of heavy feeding crops. and not replacing what was taken or even adding most of the crop waste back to the soil.

 

[mad librettist]

ok so back to dr. Ingham to explain that observation and why, if they had not ploughed the soil, they could have fed themselves with much less work and inputs, and gotten healthier food. I'll also refer you to the little book club reading of Teamin with Microbes.

Both should be placed on the surface of the soil, although if greater bacterial activity is desired, mix lightly into the top few inches of soil. Realize that plowing and compacting kills many soil organisms, and soil structure is destroyed.

A mineral crust may then develop, decreasing water infiltration, water-holding capacity, and soil structure is destroyed. The benefit from mixing food into the soil and growing a burst of bacterial biomass may not offset all the detrimental results of the tillage. During periods of optimal moisture and temperature (spring, and fall in some areas), bacterial-food should disappear rapidly, within 2 to 9 weeks if soil organisms are diverse and healthy. Fungal-food takes a bit longer, 6 to 16 weeks for a healthy Foodweb to do it’s job. If the original plant material remains identifiable, after a month or more of warm weather, some part of the Foodweb is lacking and needs to be added.

I'll also point out that the Native inhabitants did not use ploughs, they used weeds to do the work, and they used relationships between plants to their advantage. Their methods needed very little input by comparison, despite not having the advantage of the earthworm enjoyed by Europeans. The worms quickly spread to cover the continent, of course, probably brought to Jamestown in ballast, or some other thing on a boat, can't remember.

 

[*Journeyman*]

It's gotta be about the minerals.

I'll also point out that the Native inhabitants did not use ploughs, they used weeds to do the work, and they used relationships between plants to their advantage. Their methods needed very little input by comparison

Yeah but when Native inhabitants tried to establish major population centers, ala cities, most eventually crashed. What happened is the population exceeded the land's ability to produce...without inputs to make up for what they were taking out. Just look at the Mound people in Ohio as an example. Skeletons at the bottom of the pile were healthy but as you progress upward you'll see more bone/teeth abnormalities. Why? The Nile delta was kind of cool cause natural flooding cycles to replenish the land.

Native populations were pretty darn stable for a very long time on the planet with some natural ebb and flows. The population on the planet only started to take off with the industrial revolution and mainly due to access to inexpensive energy such as coal and oil which skewed the balance.

That's just one angle.

 

[jaykush]

Just look at the Mound people in Ohio as an example. Skeletons at the bottom of the pile were healthy but as you progress upward you'll see more bone/teeth abnormalities. Why?

have you ever read up on the hunza people? they used "glacial milk" to water there crops. which is basically a mineral sediment rich water from glacier runoff. they were extremely healthy and long lived..that is until Mc Donalds and stuff like that moved in and corrupted them sadly.

 

[mad librettist]

so... looks like there are many ways to get minerals, eh?

1)from below
2)from the water
3)as sourced amendments.

anything else?

What i'd like to get across is that intensive food production does not necessarily equal significant mineral loss. the earth is made to produce food, and the plants up top should be the tip of an iceberg, not an oasis.

Also worth pointing out, the natives in north america probably did not all live the same way, as successfully, and as peacefully as one another.

For major population centers, trade, even ambassadors to other "states", check out the Salish, Okanagan, Haida, etc... Very sophisticated.

On the east coast, the Leni Lenape, of course. And I forget who was around Jamestown.

When settlers took their land, did they complain it was fallow? No, before they killed it with ploughs, it probably was as good as "virgin soil" they were cultivating fresh off the boat.

what I'd love to see, thinking it would prove my point, is analysis of mineral content in a burdock root growing in "depleted" soil.

 

[Dignan]

Also keep in mind the possibility that low-producing soil (or lack of food) wasn't exclusively to blame for the demise of all native american societies. Jared Diamond's book "Collapse" goes into great detail about dozens of causes of societal collapse in the span of recorded history.

 

[mad librettist]

good point dignan. And as I'm sure the book points out, nutritional collapse follows societal collapse for social reasons.

 

[*Journeyman*]

have you ever read up on the hunza people? they used "glacial milk" to water there crops. which is basically a mineral sediment rich water from glacier runoff. they were extremely healthy and long lived.

I think that's part of the equation for why they were healthy. Another is that water was probably irrigating their plants (?) so much higher nutrient dense foods. Great thing about water like that is the size of the particles that will stay in suspension easily are vewy small like ultra-micronized.

As for the native people thing those are good points you guys make and basically agree. My point was in certain instances the collapse can be tied to 'over grazing' basically. It appears that native populations were generally pretty stable in many areas. I know with the Chaco civilization that was part of it but also they had a ridiculously long drought cycle. Chaco Canyon is an awesome place though!

Land can be stripped of it's minerals/nutrients and proven. At the least the content is dramatically reduced. Many reported instances of reduced crop productivity and health over time when started on native/virgin soil with no inputs. In some areas this takes many years but in the rain forest areas not so long and that's partly why they keep slashing and burning and moving on. They use up the inherent stuff in the soil quickly. I worked with someone who used to be a commercial chem farmer and he said that after harvest nothing would grow on his fields until he added ferts again. He said the land was basically sterile.

I posted something some place awhile back about how in Europe some place, like the mid 1800's (?) land productivity slowly started to drop. One guy figured out it was phosphorous and they starting importing bones to the area for use as a fertilizer and 'modern' agriculture was born...something like that. The 'movement' is credited to one German chemist I believe?

 

[jaykush]

I think that's part of the equation for why they were healthy. Another is that water was probably irrigating their plants (?) so much higher nutrient dense foods. Great thing about water like that is the size of the particles that will stay in suspension easily are vewy small like ultra-micronized.

yea thats why they called it glacial milk, ive seen similar streams up in the high country here in the sierra nevada mountains. though im sure not as pure as the Himalayas, it made me smile and i took some home lol. and yea the mineral rich soil made for extremely nutrient dense foods. they also had a very good diet and used to live well over 100.

 

[*Journeyman*]

Did you know when you concentrate ORMUS from creek water using a rare earth magnet ORMUS trap the liquid you get is milky white . Best water to use to make creek ORMUS is from creeks running through areas with a lot of gold. The Sierra's in general is perfect for making creek ORMUS.

 

[jaykush]

wait can you give more detail on how to do this? im right smack dab in the middle of gold country and surrounded by creeks. id be down to give it a whirl. i vaguely remember researching ORMUS and cant remember much about it.

 

[*Journeyman*]

Just Google 'ormus magnet trap' and lots of links. The most expensive part will probably be the neodymium magnets but not too expensive. I had a friend build one as he's really into this stuff. He gave me some ormus he made and was very milky with a fairly thick texture. He used a 5 gallon water bottle and lots of magnets as I told him to build me a good one. Just a word of caution about those magnets cause they are STRONG...lol. I got a bad blood blister when a finger got caught between 2 of them. If you get 2 stuck together a real bitch to get them apart.

Supposedly the super strong magnetic field enables separation of the ormus out of the water.

Ormus is a whole nother subject to get into though. Basically super high spin monoatomic elements. The friend that made me the trap said something like raw ormus is OK but a way to really activate the stuff but we never went that far.

 

[*Journeyman*]

I just want to add I have no experience working with ormus, more technically ORME's (Orbitally Rearranged Monoatomic Elements). I am working with some stuff that's a bit out there according to some...lol...but will only say about ormus that it is something that may warrant someone playing with a bit at least for shits and giggles. For sure straddles energetic substances. Something like ormus might be a bit hard to validate scientifically in the lab but addition to agriculture may show benefits. For sure some uber fringe stuff to even talk about. Supposedly something like pyrophylllite clay has a decent concentration of ormus.

I gave the 5 gallon ormus trap to a friend as a 'gift' to play with but LEO thought it was a 5 gallon bong and confiscated it. They actually published in the paper it was a 3 gallon bong so they can't even measure correctly...LOL. My buddy never got it set up so never put it to the test or tried the concentrate out in the garden.

 

[mad librettist]

talking ormus gets me kind of ... excited. and confused.

 

[ixnay007]

ORMUS ORMES, basically you're just concentrating the mineral components in your water (especially the magnetic ones, but I'd imagine non magnetic ones as well, through momentum).

The fact that finely powdered minerals work is already well documented in this thread, as JK says, the finer the powder the more immediate the effect, and it doesn't get much smaller than dissolved in water (possibly hyperbole). The positive effects of remineralizing your soil are well documented, in this case, you're just making a liquid which contains more (and more readily available) minerals for your bacteria and the web of plants, animals and fungus who interact with them.

Magnets are really cool, I've got a couple small rare earth ones from a 20meg HD on my desk, but they aren't magic, and the amount of hype, pseudoscience and powers attributed to them makes my head hurt. From magnetic water to perpetual motion machines, to magnetic healing earrings they're a gold mine for crackpots and scammers.

IMHO of course.

 

[mad librettist]

I want me some ormus!

that's crazy power. i've seen just the minerals in tapwater cause microbial growth that was a pain in my ass (carnivorous plant). So I can imagine adding a bit of ormus to my water would be great for normal plants. Especially for misting the soil.

 

[*Journeyman*]

Well if you look at the documentation ormus is not that simple. Some of this is really about theory but does seem to have some basis in fact:

KNOWN ORMUS ELEMENTS Element Atomic Number
Cobalt 27 Nickel 28 Copper 29 Ruthenium 44 Rhodium 45 Palladium 46 Silver 47 Osmium 76 Iridium 77 Platinum 78 Gold 79 Mercury 80

The following elements, which are known to have an m-state, have an odd number of electrons and protons:
Cobalt
Copper
Rhodium
Silver
Iridium
Gold In order for these atoms to be superconductors in the m-state, they must be at least diatoms. Since you must have an even number of electrons in order for every electron to pair up with another electron, you cannot have the m-state of any element which has an odd number of electrons without having at least two of these atoms paired up.

All of these m-state elements are abundant in sea water. According to David Hudson's discoveries, these elements in their m-state may be as much as 10,000 times more abundant than their metallic counterparts. There also may be other elements which occur naturally in the m-state. Various researchers, working independently, have identified these materials in this different state of matter. They have arrived at many of the same observations. These m-state elements have been observed to exhibit superconductivity, superfluidity, Josephson tunneling and magnetic levitation. It looks like these are an entirely new class of materials. These m-state elements are also present in many biological systems. They may enhance energy flow in the microtubules inside every living cell.

A monoatomic element has one atom per molecule; a diatomic element has two atoms per molecule. Certain elements in a monatomic or diatomic configuration can form a stable structure where all of their electrons are Cooper paired, and so are not available as valence electrons (more on this later). Elements in this configuration are superconductors at room temperature and exhibit other quantum physical behaviors at a visible scale. Some of these quantum physical behaviors include:

• Anomalous responses to gravity
• Superfluidity
• "Tunneling" through solid objects
• Deformed nuclei in a high-spin state

Physicists have recently created a new state of matter (which we believe is related to ORMUS) in the laboratory. This state of matter is called a Bose-Einstein Condensate (BEC) after Satyendra Nath Bose and Albert Einstein who postulated the existence of this state of matter in the 1920s. Their theory was not "proven" until BECs were created in the laboratory in 1995 by Eric Cornell and Carl Wieman in Boulder, Colorado.

The m-state of gold and other precious elements is different from the metallic state of these same elements. For example ingesting m-state gold has different effects on the body than the effects of ingesting metallic gold. What makes the ORMUS state atoms different is that they will not form metal-metal bonds with their own kind. They won't form metal-metal bonds because their valence electrons are not available to form normal molecular bonds. This is because each electron is paired up with another electron in a Cooper paired state. When electrons are Cooper paired, they cease to behave as particles and begin to behave more like light. Since you must have an even number of electrons in order for every electron to pair up with another electron, you cannot have the m-state of any element which has an odd number of electrons without having at least two of these atoms paired up.

Part of the reason the rare earth magnets work in this instance is not necessarily due to them being magnetic but the strong field 'excites' the ormus and they behave a bit differently allowing for their separation...or so they say.

Will say I have talked to someone with a strong background in metullurgy, ore extraction, etc. and said he's able to pull out more gold from seawater than will normally show up on a test and IF that is true it has to do with something about changing the state of gold from an m-state to it's metallic state. He also said it's not an economically feasible process nor will it ever be but is possible to do. Like I said out there stuff and reads like science fiction. Ormus probably deserves it's own thread but am guessing so many people would be saying BS it'd probably get binned...lol. I think ormus is simply an interesting topic reserved for theoretical discussion and not necessarily practical application so something to experiment with on a rainy day.

 

[ixnay007]

It doesn't read like science fiction, it reads a bit more like areas of science without a lot of attention where people who know enough scientific terms pull the wool over the eyes of people who believe in things like homeopathy, reiki, and other nifty but scientifically unproven things.

That's not to say I'm putting it in the same category, but for the moment, it just seems to be a concentration of mineral elements which do, and have been proven to provide benefits for the food web in the soil. At least til someone who isn't asking for a 1000 dollar donation decides to put up a site about it.