soil remineralization: process and discussion

[NUG-JUG]

Is it important? Hardly - just the musings of an old man searching for some answers as pH relates to a plant's overall health.

HTH

CC

Clack your musings have helped me avoid a lot of stinky BS..

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Liming Agents

Liming Agents

NUG-LUG

Just for sh*ts and grins - consider and analyze the 'accepted' liming agents allowed to be discussed on this board. I was warned several times that going against the so-called conventional wisdom of a former board moderator that doing so was grounds for having my posts removed.

Heh...............

Let's look at the most widely used 'liming agents' in agriculture/horticulture which are as follows:

Gypsum - this agent is known in the chemist's world as 'calcium sulfate dihydrate' (CaSO4·2H2O) - meaning elemental Calcium (Ca++) combined with Sulphur Oxide (SO4) and 2 water (H20) - you still with me? Organic farmers hold the whole issue of liming agents in utter disregard - fair enough. Where gypsum comes into play is that while it contains elemental Calcium (i.e. Ca++) it also contains Sulphur Oxide which releases Hydrogen (+) which is acidic. This results in gypsum being able to both raise as well as lower a soil's pH - whatever that might mean which is generally 'nothing'

Let's move to limestone/oyster shell powder, i.e. Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) - calcium carrying a carbon and 3 oxygen cations - probably THE most effective 'liming' agent that one could opt for relative to the CeC paradigm.

Next up is dolomite lime - dolomite lime is also a mined mineral which is, interestingly enough is also a 'carbonate' but in a form that is not as easily 'adsorbed' by a plant root as other forms of calcium carbonate (calcium carbonate which is the main alkaline base found in EWC - the worm's digestive tract contains liquid calcium carbonate as part of their digestive process.

The main issue with dolomite lime is that the calcium (Ca) is bound with the Magnesium (Mg) component - meaning that unless the soil is out of bounds as it relates to pH - the Magnesium component is not made available by the soil's microbes. Just because it's 'there' doesn't mean that it's available to a plant.

Whew!!

So if YOU were to opt for a 'liming agent' per se, which one would you opt for? Keep in mind that I'm risking banishment from this board for even questioning conventional wisdom as dictated by the board's management.

Heh..................

CC

 

[ngen]

CC, i read somewhere that when soils with high CEC have a near perfect base saturation (the 76%, 13% 5%, 5% ca, mg, P, Na). And that if their is only 20% remaining to have acidic particles bind (that H+1 and, AL+3) that its rather weird for the soil to ever leave the high 6's... Notice alot of the people on here that advocate Ph'ing water with organics run bagged soil (i'd be willing to bet low in clay proportions), with useless aearation like perlite?(low low cec...) Thus they don't provide themselves much resistance against ph drops with their water n stuff......(hah not taking that anywhere just rambling)

cool stuff though, was at my boys house a couple days ago and his mom asked me about feeding her gardenias mag and phos, my natural response was dolo.. then wait! i asked ''arnt gardenias acid lovers?'' think imma advise some gypsum and cottonseed meal, never had to lower ph before!

related to this rambling of mine, apparently cec value for sodium can run up to 15%. Thinking about this and sodicity really wants to get me to see how much salts soil can take... i topdressed some fresh compost that had alot of old peanut baseball shells
in it on a container cindy 99 plant i'm running, (over a topdressing of some meals and the lessening supply of guano i still have!) gonna see if it slows down mah-crobes any... i'm doubting it since all my compost piles are full of peanuts and all cooking away. further tinkering must happen....still trying to understand salts, they interest me.

and finally, very interesting stuff on dolo, i just got around to deciding on running the 3 way buffer mix.... and i sent you a message on your page about something i already forgot, but if you could get back that'd be rad.

 

[guest2012y]

"The main issue with dolomite lime is that the calcium (Ca) is bound with the Magnesium (Mg) component - meaning that unless the soil is out of bounds as it relates to pH - the Magnesium component is not made available by the soil's microbes. Just because it's 'there' doesn't mean that it's available to a plant"

Considering the range of ph fluctuations when using teas,some being around as low as 4.0 and some getting near 9.0....would that fluctuating period of "out of bounds" be enough to allow some of that mag. to be made available?
I'm wondering if my particular use of kelp meal has been making me think that I'm getting mag. from both sources when in fact It may only be because I use more kelp meal than the average bear.
I have only recently begun using sul-po-mag...so I'm also wondering how that mag. source has been being made available....it does indeed seem to be broken down in a tea.

 

[Yankee Grower]

12 hours later and very little had settled to the bottom so I gave the "glacial milk" to my potatoes this morinig and mixed more for them. Is there any advantage here over a simple top dress when late in the season?

Top dressings work fantastic and IME become available within a few days. I've done something similar to what you did and let things settle for awhile and only water with the solution. I think it's 6 of 1 or half dozen of another really in this case with the glacial rock dust especially considering there is not much material settling. You'll still see benefit late in the season. I've top dressed a few weeks into flower and worked great. I can see with something that's less soluble the settling method will work better and experimented with that and K-Mag. Early on when dealing with low pH I would do that with dolomite also.

A lot of hospital time as things are turning out.

Bummer...was wondering where you were at. You are the voice of reason. Hope you get better soon!

CC, i read somewhere that when soils with high CEC have a near perfect base saturation (the 76%, 13% 5%, 5% ca, mg, P, Na).

Base saturation has nothing to do with high or low CEC soils. It's about the % ratios not amount. High CEC soils simply hold more nutrients and low CEC soils less but both could have the exact same base saturation rate

related to this rambling of mine, apparently cec value for sodium can run up to 15%.

Not from what I understand but a bit confused here...are you really talking about Na as part of the base saturation rate and not the CEC? Na does not add anything to a soil's CEC. A soil's CEC is more about the humus and clay content...generally. The Na content as percent of the base saturation rate 'formula' is part of the 3% 'other' category which constitutes a lot of elements. Lots of Na ='s less Ca and Mg as those are the cations that will typically get sacrificed when you have a lot of sodium. You need very little sodium regardless of what Ocean Grown says...lol. Only places you might see Na deficiencies is on the East coast with all that rain. Even then you don't do a corrective application and something like a small amount of whole sea salt will do.

when people on the canna forums talk about adding molasses they often remind us to use non sulphur types ie blackstrap or equivallent.seems that sulfur/sulphur is bad for some benne microorganisms. so i'm asking for clarification. thanks.

I really don't know much about molasses. Elemental sulphur will drop pH. Maybe when bound up in something like gypsum a different story. I can see that excess sulphur would drop pH to the point where bennies would not like it. Fungi like low pH while bacteria like high. Once pH drops below a certain point in the soil I've seen pH really dive fast as the fungi take over big time. I think it was like around 5.5 then it would crash.

I'd stick with unsulphured molasses. K-Mag is a great S source also and prolly what I was relying on for S.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Elemental sulphur will drop pH. Maybe when bound up in something like gypsum a different story. I can see that excess sulphur would drop pH to the point where bennies would not like it. Fungi like low pH while bacteria like high. Once pH drops below a certain point in the soil I've seen pH really dive fast as the fungi take over big time.

Yankee Grower

From the University of Iowa - Gypsum: An Old Product With a New Use

"Soil structure is impacted by exchangeable cations (positively charged ions). Multivalent cations (more than one positive charge) help hold soil particles together because they can have electrostatic (magnetic) attraction between two or more negative charge sites (soil clay and organic matter have a net negative charge). Multivalent cations include Ca2+, Mg2+, Zn2+, and Al3+. Monovalent cations (only one positive charge) cannot help with soil structure because of only one positive charge, and with sodium (Na+), for example, can degrade soil structure when large amounts occupy the soil exchange sites (also impacted by large ionic size of Na); thus, soils with low salt but high levels of exchangeable sodium (Na+) have poor soil structure. Except for a very small acreage of Napa soil in the Missouri River valley, excess Na is not a problem on Iowa soils, including those with high pH. In arid regions where salt and Na accumulates (saline-sodic soils), reclamation can include use of gypsum. Gypsum is used to add large amounts Ca2+ ions that displace the Na+ ions from the exchange sites, and when flushed with clean water both salts and Na are removed from the soil (gypsum is used instead of limestone because of higher solubility and no increase in soil pH). However, even in these sites this practice is not effective when subsoils have low permeability to water. If a soil only has high soluble salt, then gypsum is not used because it would add to the salt problem."

There's more information provided at the link that you may find helpful.

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

An interesting facet of using humic acids is the effect on clay - specifically which has been hit with salts (naturally or with the addition of chemical salts).

Clay particles hold a negative charge as we all know and understand. Clay is microscopic in size meaning that if you were to take a teaspoon of clay and stir it in a glass of water it would appear that the clay pieces had been diluted and broken down. Not so - they are merely suspended in the water and while it could take several days or even weeks, at some point the clay particles would drop down to the bottom of the glass.

When clay is hit with salts it forms a positive charge around the edges of the clay particle and will form a 3 way bond that will cause soil compaction and will seriously affect the soil's overall CeC. Humic acids remove the positive charge on the clay particles restoring them to their desired '-' charge and exchanging cations as it should be.

All the lime in the world cannot accomplish this feat. What I don't understand and I would defer to either CT Guy or MicrobeMan on the level of humic acid in an AACT assuming that you're starting out with viable EWC and/or thermal compost.

Just a couple of thoughts.

CC

 

[Yankee Grower]

Cool info as always CC.

Yeah sodium degrades a soils CEC especially with clays. Sodium can turn high energy clays, which actually expand and contract and have a high CEC, to low energy clays. If I'm remembering right a way to rid soil of excess Na is by using a high anion solution or something like that. Lots of water help also but the other way pushes sodium right out. No notes on that and an older conversation based on recollection from old brain cells...lol.

 

[Yankee Grower]

An interesting facet of using humic acids is the effect on clay - specifically which has been hit with salts (naturally or with the addition of chemical salts).

Clay particles hold a negative charge as we all know and understand. Clay is microscopic in size meaning that if you were to take a teaspoon of clay and stir it in a glass of water it would appear that the clay pieces had been diluted and broken down. Not so - they are merely suspended in the water and while it could take several days or even weeks, at some point the clay particles would drop down to the bottom of the glass.

When clay is hit with salts it forms a positive charge around the edges of the clay particle and will form a 3 way bond that will cause soil compaction and will seriously affect the soil's overall CeC. Humic acids remove the positive charge on the clay particles restoring them to their desired '-' charge and exchanging cations as it should be.

All the lime in the world cannot accomplish this feat. What I don't understand and I would defer to either CT Guy or MicrobeMan on the level of humic acid in an AACT assuming that you're starting out with viable EWC and/or thermal compost.

Just a couple of thoughts.

CC

Just posted and saw this...yeah yeah...basically knocking the Na right out. Humic acid? Cool. From what I understand they've used both sodium and potassium chloride to stabilize oil well bore holes by degrading the clay

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Yankee Grower

One thing that I found interesting when looking at colloidal (aka nano) mineral amendments like Azomite, bentonite, montmorillite, kaolanite, pyrophillite, and zeolite among others. These are referred to as alumino-silicates.

Typically this class of clays (volcanic sources) contain 15-20% aluminum.

Glacial rock dust is not volcanic and for many organic farmers it's the preferred choice for adding rock dust into one's soil.

The Pacific Northwest is built on basalt (literally) and basalt powder is available. I wanted to try it but finding any viable information has proven challenging. In the mean time I'll stick with the glacial rock dust out of Canada which costs $10.00 per 50 lbs.

Certainly cheap enough

CC

 

[elmanito]

Interesting info in this thread.I'm using Sea-Crop in combination with organic blackstrap molasses during flowering and it works just fine.To much molasses will give a Mg deficiency eventually what i saw last year when i didn't use Sea-Crop.Unsulphured blackstrap molasses contains also Sulphur.Blackstrap molasse has a pH 4.9 - 6.0.

http://www.suga-lik.com/molasses/composition.html

Namaste

 

[Clackamas Coot]

If you're adding soft rock phosphate (a manufactured product) you might want to consider the Calcium levels.

Generally, the bags will read something like Phosphorus 25%, Available Phosphorus 3% and the one that is left out is the calcium content - 26%. These numbers are based on the product out of Idaho. Soda Springs, Florida also has a soft rock processor and both companies play around with the basic numbers but calcium is definitely a major component of this product.

If you are using it, then it might be helpful to consider the calcium levels it contains and then factor in the massive amount of calcium (calcium carbonate) contained in healthy earthworm castings and then figure out if you actually need a liming agent per se.

Then again if one drags home a bag of dirt from the grow store the liming aspect is just the first step on the road to turn this dirt into a soil. I'm on the side that says it can't happen but I'm probably wrong.

Or not.

CC

 

[Yankee Grower]

One thing that I found interesting when looking at colloidal (aka nano) mineral amendments like Azomite, bentonite, montmorillite, kaolanite, pyrophillite, and zeolite among others. These are referred to as alumino-silicates.

Yeah but those clays have very different characteristics from what I understand. Something like bentonite is a very low energy clay while pyrophillite is very high. Isn't bentonite a surface/sedimentary deposit? I now pryophllite is 'made' underground at the tops of hot magma chambers from high silica water over time or something like that and also high in Rare Earth Elements. Azomite is an old almost metamorphic type ash deposit isn't it? Zeolite is hard like rock, I fiddled with some, and doesn't that have to do more with it's porous structure? I dunno...I hear what you're saying there but all of those have different characteristics and from what I understand were deposited in different manners under different conditions. Honestly have not looked too much into all of this but I hear ya all basically classified as alumino-silicates.

Was digging around for the aluminum content of glacial rock dust and found this about basalt but did not look at it at all:
http://etmd.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/42473/1/IND44389025.pdf

LOL...always good to have you on the boards

 

[Yankee Grower]

I'm using Sea-Crop in combination with organic blackstrap molasses during flowering and it works just fine.To much molasses will give a Mg deficiency eventually what i saw last year when i didn't use Sea-Crop.

I keep telling people about that stuff and almost no one listens...lol. Part of that actually is the 4.1% Mg content but that's only a small part of the puzzle since the application rates are so low not much Mg going on but it's a wicked good form of Mg . Glad you're having good results. Got some new info for ya I can forward to you down the road a bit about the whole thing.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

YG

Here's a good one for you regarding rock dusts in thermal composting processes called Controlled Microbial Composting and Humus Management: Luebke Compost

"The Luebkes also worked directly with colleagues of Dr. Ehrenfried Pfeiffer (1899-1961) at The Pfeiffer Foundation in Spring Valley, NY.

Dr. Pfeiffer was a microbiologist and agronomist who studied under Rudolf Steiner, the founder of biodynamic agriculture. The Luebkes experimented with microbial inoculants developed by Dr. Pfeiffer, including B.D. Compost Starter® and B.D. Field Starter®, a green manure inoculant. The Luebkes also learned how to use the circular chromatogram technique developed by Dr. Pfeiffer to evaluate the humus condition of soils and composts."

That article appeared at the USDA's organic site to help farmers transition from conventional to organic methods, i.e. ATTRA which has a weekly newsletter that you would probably find interesting I would think.

Anyway - note the date of Luebke's work in the area of soil microbiology going back 45 years.

Dr. E!!! Are you listening?

Heh....................

CC

 

[Yankee Grower]

...

 

[schwagg]

Jaykush

Good thread!

I use a product put together by the main organic farm supply store up in Portland. It's named for the woman who formulated it, i.e. Naomi. It runs $20.00 for 50-lbs.

Naomi's Organic Mineral Mix - 20% each: Azomite, Glacial Rock, Greensand, Soft Rock Phosphate & Limestone

This mix is based on the formula made famous by Steve Soloman, founder of Territorial Seed Company in Western Oregon.

I use 2-3 cups per 5 gallons of mixed potting soil. I also add it to my worm bins and even some in the bokashi composting bucket.

what the heck is limestone? i've searched but always come back to dolomite lime. i know a place that sells

​

Ag Lime (Calcitic)
Ca 39%, Mg 1%


is that what i'm looking for in the naomi mix?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I have only recently begun using sul-po-mag...so I'm also wondering how that mag. source has been being made available....it does indeed seem to be broken down in a tea.

Capt

The Sul-Po-Mag company (the retail arm of the K-Mag company) has a Q & A page that can answer your questions far better than I can - here.

HTH

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

what the heck is limestone? i've searched but always come back to dolomite lime. i know a place that sells

​

Ag Lime (Calcitic)
Ca 39%, Mg 1%


is that what i'm looking for in the naomi mix?

schwagg

Limestone is Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3). Calcite Lime is Calcium Carbonate (CaC03) as well. As is oyster shell powder.

Calcite is a purer form of Calcium Carbonate - you're good to go with this product.

HTH

CC

 

[guest2012y]

Capt

The Sul-Po-Mag company (the retail arm of the K-Mag company) has a Q & A page that can answer your questions far better than I can - here.

HTH

CC

Thanks Clack.....About an hour after I asked that question I discovered the exact same page....pretty much answers anybody's sul-po-mag questions. Good information,good product.