SOIL MIX CHALLENGE for our fellow organic gardeners . . .

[BurnOne]

I did a piece at OG once about finding supplies locally. Powdered dolomite lime and kelp are by far the most difficult items to find in North Carolina. Worm castings and compost can be made at home. Composted cow manure is available everywhere here. Dried blood and bone meal are everywhere now as well. The most helpful link I have found is the "Local Retailer Finder" at www.espoma.com .
Espoma has kelp meal and greensand along with dried blood and bone meal and cottonseed meal and should be within driving distance for most growers in the USA. Canadian peat is at all Home dePOT stores. Perlite is used in building trade to insulate masonry walls. I don't like vermiculite but it's used in the same industry.
I almost quit organic growing before I ever started because I couldn't find the items I needed. The local Yellow Pages was the best tool I ever had and it's free.
Burn1

 

[Stoney Bologna]

Dignan, I had that same problem when I moved to a new state. I couldn't find any dolomitc lime. Out here they call it agricultural lime, it took me a while to figure that out. Is agricultural lime available where you live?

 

[BurnOne]

Dignan, I had that same problem when I moved to a new state. I couldn't find any dolomitc lime. Out here they call it agricultural lime, it took me a while to figure that out. Is agricultural lime available where you live?

Good call S.B. Look on the label somewhere for the word dolomite. I saw it printed on the bottom of a bag once in very small letters.
Burn1

 

[vonforne]

The espoma brand Garden Lime is dolomite lime(in the pellet form). It is sold at every Lowes in the country.

V

 

[D.W.A.I.]

The espoma brand Garden Lime is dolomite lime(in the pellet form). It is sold at every Lowes in the country.

V

As an aside to this post. I'm always reading about powdered dolomite lime vs. pelletized (...which I have) and how powdered is much more effective due to the simple fact that smaller particles = larger surface area. Anyway, staring at my cheap Black & Decker coffee grinder, I decided to powder some lime. It works like a charm. I decided to put on the industrial respirator (I'm paranoid about rock dust...knowing what silica will do to the lungs) because it does get dusty....but it works great. I mention this because I believe you were touting the coffee grinder's usefulness earlier in this thread. It's hard to go wrong with a 10-15 dollar tool that you can use for any number of tasks. Thanks for the tip!

Edit: My bad, it was a blender...which is also great for larger volumes. Thanks again.

 

[Dignan]

Dignan, I had that same problem when I moved to a new state. I couldn't find any dolomitc lime. Out here they call it agricultural lime, it took me a while to figure that out. Is agricultural lime available where you live?

If it is, I haven't found it.

I did find some lime at a Lowes about 75 miles away once.

 

[vonforne]

Lowes where I'm at carries Sunnyland brand Lawn lime. It has a higher count of Calsium carbonate. You would have to supplement the Mg to balance out the % of Ca to Mg.

V

 

[3BM]

Greetings all, great stuff so far. I love this discussion so forgive me if I ramble ...

I try to vary the particle sizes in my mix. FLINTSTONERS you stated that vermiculite increases cation exchange, I wonder does this result from its size and shape (or from some chemical property it has?) I avoid vermiculite since it contains arsenic and other toxic materials. Given, it breaks down slowly so probably little enters the food chain, but I worry. I replace it with "grits" sold as part of chicken feed, called "grani-grit" when made from granite, or calci-grit when made from ground freshwater oyster shells. Calci-grit will also supply a dose of calcium and help regulate pH. Here's my

25% Peat
25% compost
20% perlite
10% Wood fiber (from local forests, or from a nursery/lowes called "Moisture saver")
<5% grit
<5% sand
DE

These % are just a reference: I always test a soil mix by touch. You should be able to plunge your hand easily to the bottom of a large container (I use 50 gal tubs). This is my texture template for recreating a loam indoors. Now for the NPK:

(NPK+) Alfalfa hay/pellets/meal - local feed stores sell this everywhere
(PK+) Rock dust - granite dust is a mason's waste product, they pay for removal
(NPK+) Any manure - hit up horse/dairy farms, often free
(NPK+) Food waste - this could fill a whole thread, this includes plant waste

I compost all of these right in the grow room (properly ventilated of course). Shovel lawn soil to cover the bottom of a 50 gal tub then add everything you need chopped up as well as you can (I find hedge clippers work well for large/fibrous things). Shovel it around every week and water as necessary. Within 4-6 weeks (longer if you turn less frequently, faster if you turn more) the compost will mature. Save a little and continue the process, use the rest for soil mixes.

Hopefully, this is a fruitful contribution to this thread. I have long followed the work of 3LB/theFLINTSTONERS

Keep us posted on the comparison, I personally would love to see the difference between bagged compost/manure VS homemade compost in a soil mix. Man Im glad to have you guys back!

3bm

 

[Dignan]

These % are just a reference: I always test a soil mix by touch. You should be able to plunge your hand easily to the bottom of a large container (I use 50 gal tubs). This is my texture template for recreating a loam indoors.
3bm

Nice post 3BM.

I too go by feel quite a bit... digging hands into the soil mix. But I've always wondered if I/we should be increasing the percentage of Perlite the further down into the container we go, in order to accommodate the added weight compressing the soil from above. (Did that sentence make any sense at all?)

What do you think?

IOW, top 1/3 of the container 20% perlite, middle 1/3 25% perlite and bottom 1/3 35% perlite.

Dig

 

[vonforne]

I am working two good mixes at the moment. They are both listed in my grow threads. I will post the links rather than type it all in here. I'm lazy today. LOL



http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=60751&page=1

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=58923&page=1

V

 

[drrico]

I try to vary the particle sizes in my mix. FLINTSTONERS you stated that vermiculite increases cation exchange, I wonder does this result from its size and shape (or from some chemical property it has?) I avoid vermiculite since it contains arsenic and other toxic materials. Given, it breaks down slowly so probably little enters the food chain, but I worry.

<snip>

3bm

Vermiculite is a type of clay composed of mica. It looks like stacks of aluminosilica sheets (aluminosilicates form when some of the Si4+ ions in silicates are replaced by Al3+ ions). For each Si4+ ion replaced by an Al3+, the charge must be balanced by other cations such as Na+, K+, and Ca2+ ions. In vermiculite, the Al3+ subbing for Si4+ are balanced by K+ ions between the molecular sheets , though they may be sometimes replaced by Mg2+ and Fe2+ cations (in the relevant stoichiometry). When Al3+ is replaced by elements with different valence, or charge (for example, aluminum replaced by iron (Fe2+) or magnesium (Mg2+), leading to a net negative charge), additional cations may be recruited to balance the charge.

It is these physicochemical properties (high surface area to volume ratio of the sheets + the exchange properties) that make vermiculite a good soil additive for increasing cation exchange capacity.

Arsenic, when present in soil or water, may bind to vermiculite. In fact, vermiculite is used in commercial applications to REMOVE arsensic from contaminated water and in leachates of contaminated soil. I have never seen evidence of significant amounts of arsenic in vermiculite. Asbestos occasionally (RARELY....depends on the mine...like some Montana, USA mines), but not arsenic. But teach me! Let's see the data and ponder it, collectively.

 

[theFLINTSTONERS]

Greetings all, great stuff so far. I love this discussion so forgive me if I ramble ...

I try to vary the particle sizes in my mix. FLINTSTONERS you stated that vermiculite increases cation exchange, I wonder does this result from its size and shape (or from some chemical property it has?) I avoid vermiculite since it contains arsenic and other toxic materials. Given, it breaks down slowly so probably little enters the food chain, but I worry. I replace it with "grits" sold as part of chicken feed, called "grani-grit" when made from granite, or calci-grit when made from ground freshwater oyster shells. Calci-grit will also supply a dose of calcium and help regulate pH. Here's my

25% Peat
25% compost
20% perlite
10% Wood fiber (from local forests, or from a nursery/lowes called "Moisture saver")
<5% grit
<5% sand
DE

These % are just a reference: I always test a soil mix by touch. You should be able to plunge your hand easily to the bottom of a large container (I use 50 gal tubs). This is my texture template for recreating a loam indoors. Now for the NPK:

(NPK+) Alfalfa hay/pellets/meal - local feed stores sell this everywhere
(PK+) Rock dust - granite dust is a mason's waste product, they pay for removal
(NPK+) Any manure - hit up horse/dairy farms, often free
(NPK+) Food waste - this could fill a whole thread, this includes plant waste

I compost all of these right in the grow room (properly ventilated of course). Shovel lawn soil to cover the bottom of a 50 gal tub then add everything you need chopped up as well as you can (I find hedge clippers work well for large/fibrous things). Shovel it around every week and water as necessary. Within 4-6 weeks (longer if you turn less frequently, faster if you turn more) the compost will mature. Save a little and continue the process, use the rest for soil mixes.

Hopefully, this is a fruitful contribution to this thread. I have long followed the work of 3LB/theFLINTSTONERS

Keep us posted on the comparison, I personally would love to see the difference between bagged compost/manure VS homemade compost in a soil mix. Man Im glad to have you guys back!

3bm

drrico already answered the vermiculite question pretty well . . .

the bottom line thing that's special about vermiculite . . . is it's structure and the way it reacts to "hold" elements for later consumption by the plants . . .

and drrico is correct in saying that vermiculite is best categorized as a clay . . . although it is not truly a clay . . . it behaves similar to clay for the purposes of botany . . .

like drrico . . . we've seen reports of vermiculite containing asbestos . . . but we also believe there are certified asbestos free sources of vermiculite that can be found . . .

 

[hidden]

My lazy man's mix:
25% peat
25% perlite
25% vermiculite
25% worm castings (from my bins)

also add in small amounts:
kelp meal
blood meal
bone meal
dolomitic lime
espoma plus


Wet it down with a weak liquid kelp solution and let it cook for awhile. I use this to grow in fairly small containers SOG style.

 

[hidden]

Vermiculite is a phylosilicate, which is a type of clay mineral with sheet like layers.

It has an excellent quality of allowing weak molecular bonds with receptive molecules through van Der Waal's forces. Van Der Waal's forces are cool in that it allows vermiculite to store water and other associated things and release it very slowly, even when the soil seems bone dry. I always use it for this reason, as I often have to let things get really dry between garden checks. I guess the water holding crystals would probably do a better job - I aim to experiment with these some day.

 

[jrw]

Im building af list here in DK right now for a future grow.

We have many products available...

Spagnum peat moss, pressed, 300L (coarse, no ferts)
Perlite (too small i think)
Clay pebbles (a possibility)
Champinion compost

Blood meal (1kg, real cheap, cph)
Bonemeal (2 kg, real cheap, cph)
Kelp meal (1 liter, per mail)
Basaltmeal (1 liter, "stonemeal", kiesel=44%, per mail)
Dolomite lime (1 liter, pulverized, per mail)
Seaweed extract (2ml/l recommended, per mail)
Ecologically approved (EU + DK) 3-3-6 fertilizer based on fishbone, molasses and kelpmeal (1 liter, per mail)

 

[bakelite]

Here is what I have used for a few grows:

75% sphagnum peat moss (neut. ~1/4 cup wood ash/gal)
20% perlite
5% vermiculite

To each gallon of this mixture I add 1/4 cup Espoma Plant-tone, 1/4 cup bone meal and 1-1/4 tsp sulfate of potash.

I like to use about 10% worm castings in this mixture, but as stated above it isn't readily available in all parts of the country. I have found Espoma Plant-tone (5-3-3) in both HD as well as Lowes, but once again availability is spotty. Places like Agway (farm/garden centers) often carry it as well. I like using it as a base for my organic mixes as it has all of the secondary and micro nutrients as well. The bone meal is used to kick up the P and the sulfate of potash for the K. I like to crush all of this up prior to mixing to help the nutes become more readily available to the soil/plants. Let the mix set for like 3-4 days prior to use, agitating daily for aeration. Do this until it smells nice and earthy.
I have also been adding these ferts using Miracle Gro Organic Choice with 25-35% perlite and 10% worm castings as a base. I know there are a lot of people here who don't like MGOC, but it seems to work okay for me plus it is readily available at HD, Lowes and Walmart and hardware stores as well.