Smart Meters, Start up power ballast vs LED?

[rives]

Something that needs to be understood is that this metering is the basis for how some of the largest and most powerful companies in the world get PAID, so they've made certain that the meters work very well. They use basically the same technology to meter industrial plants that get penalized for low power factor - the metering has the capability to dissect the current and voltage sine waves, and their relationship to each other, thousands of times per second and record every aspect of it. At this rate of analysis, no two things can turn on or off at the same moment - fractions of a second are miles apart. Couple this with the fact that they can measure wattage down to a fraction of a watt, and they can tell pretty much anything about the load that you connect to it if they want to.

The answer is to keep them from wanting to, at least until the time that computers are tasked with routinely evaluating everyone's usage information. This will eventually end up being used just like Google et al, where they record and analyze every mouse click on your computer so that they can target your demographic more accurately.

 

[Jhhnn]

Something that needs to be understood is that this metering is the basis for how some of the largest and most powerful companies in the world get PAID, so they've made certain that the meters work very well. They use basically the same technology to meter industrial plants that get penalized for low power factor - the metering has the capability to dissect the current and voltage sine waves, and their relationship to each other, thousands of times per second and record every aspect of it. At this rate of analysis, no two things can turn on or off at the same moment - fractions of a second are miles apart. Couple this with the fact that they can measure wattage down to a fraction of a watt, and they can tell pretty much anything about the load that you connect to it if they want to.

The answer is to keep them from wanting to, at least until the time that computers are tasked with routinely evaluating everyone's usage information. This will eventually end up being used just like Google et al, where they record and analyze every mouse click on your computer so that they can target your demographic more accurately.

Hey, maybe Xcel energy will offer me a deal if I'll switch to 315w CMH lamps. They offer incentives for installing photovoltaics, energy efficient air conditioners & furnaces- why should grow lights be any different?

 

[Apache Kush]

interesting hmm

 

[rives]

Now that is a hell of an idea. I'm not sure about the part about being a test case, though......

 

[kollos]

But noone answerd my question earlier, would it be best to just start every lamp on the same timer excally at the same time, or spread them out with 5-10mins in between?

 

[rives]

It depends. How many and what size lights, and what are you trying to accomplish? If you have a few hundred watts of LEDs, then there isn't much point. If you have several thousand watts, then it's a pretty good idea but not necessarily from a detection viewpoint - it will be easier on the electrical system with less voltage sag.

 

[Jhhnn]

But noone answerd my question earlier, would it be best to just start every lamp on the same timer excally at the same time, or spread them out with 5-10mins in between?

Staggered startup would be easier on the power company's equipment & your own, as well. Might tend to keep you lower under the radar, but it's really impossible to say because we don't know what sort of parameters they might set. Either way, close examination of your power profile will reveal that you're running HID lamps.

Using search algorithms on a database, they can set spike detection limits however they want, add periodicity & total power if they want. In a large metro area the number of hits would probably be overwhelming. In a less populous service area w/o huge numbers of customers it might be more useful for LEO. In most places, I suspect it would be secondary evidence, confirmation of what they suspect rather than a reason to be gunning for a particular grower. OTOH, I could be dead wrong about that.

 

[tenthirty]

Are you talking about using the UPS as a filter to muddy up the ignition spikes? That would help, and Oscar up above was on the right track with an isolation transformer - that's what they are used for in industry. A much-diminished reflection of the spike will still get through, though.

Consider the same components, plus a contactor to switch the power feeding the UPS, and a smart relay with a real-time clock. Program the relay to control the contactor's switching at (various!) intervals and let the UPS carry the lighting load during the down period. The meter sees the power go off, and some period of time later, come back on. However, when it comes back on, the load is much higher than it was when it went off because the batteries on the UPS will start charging. This will taper off at some point when the batteries top off, and the load will change once again.

The latter has about the best chance of working out of anything that I've considered.

A 5 kva ups can be had for about 1 or 2 k used.........
Cheap insurance!

Big ass'd UPS for 2k or so.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PowerWare-E...6&pid=100005&rk=4&rkt=6&sd=271745589655&rt=nc

 

[kollos]

It depends. How many and what size lights, and what are you trying to accomplish? If you have a few hundred watts of LEDs, then there isn't much point. If you have several thousand watts, then it's a pretty good idea but not necessarily from a detection viewpoint - it will be easier on the electrical system with less voltage sag.

well in my case, 3x700 Mars II LED lights.

So my question is if its better to start all at exaclly same time, or maybe start one 12:00 and one 12:05 and one 12:10, in my eyes this nearly look even worse because then u have 3 spikes with a 12 hour session all of them and they look really wierd in my eyes, in stead of just one startup ( spa bath ) or whatever?

 

[rives]

It doesn't matter. You are talking about a roughly 1000 watt load, which is nothing. If they are really interested in you, they aren't going to "mistake" the load for anything else, anyhow.

 

[Hpchacrx]

I was reading this thread and have any of you looked into solar power. They look at ur last three months of useage and build u a system according to what u use. So u could flower 12 hrs during the day you wouldn't draw off the grid and smart meter would be rolling backwards. They couldn't do shit and at the end of the year the power company writes you a check and you can say fuck u very much

 

[Hpchacrx]

Solar is expensive but if u own ur own house have put panels all over it. The only thing is that u have to flower when the sun is out

 

[inquisitiveone]

I was reading this thread and have any of you looked into solar power. They look at ur last three months of useage and build u a system according to what u use. So u could flower 12 hrs during the day you wouldn't draw off the grid and smart meter would be rolling backwards. They couldn't do shit and at the end of the year the power company writes you a check and you can say fuck u very much

I looked into Solar myself - you can actually install an off-grid setup if you're not running too big of a grow meaning battery backups. Charge up during the day, drain by night. The only limit would actually be how much $$ you want to use and how much square footage you have to put the panels.

On a side note, anyone in So Cal have any experience with Edison and growing?

I'm a bit paranoid with power usage as I'm starting a new grow, starting with 2kW but might go as much as 8-12kW in a residential property.

I have a medical rec but I'm still paranoid as hell if I grow trees.

 

[Hpchacrx]

Yea u should be using 8-12kw Ina residential property

 

[CannabaPitbull]

This is fucked up ,are yall sure they cant see this routine with old meters on their computers?

 

[FlapJacker]

The OP was never answered. Do LED fixtures have a spike at startup? If not wouldn't flip-flopping two tents be more effective than with traditional HID?

 

[rives]

The OP was never answered. Do LED fixtures have a spike at startup? If not wouldn't flip-flopping two tents be more effective than with traditional HID?

Any capacitive load (digital ballast, LED driver, etc) is going to have a substantial current spike when it is powered up. This is why the contacts for better-quality relays, timers, etc have ratings based on the type of connected load, and capacitive loads are the hardest load to handle for the contacts.

Never having done a comparison with a scope of HID vs LED inrush current, I would suspect that the spike seen from the HID would be much longer. The HID spike comes from the lamp igniting, which is a much slower process than capacitors charging up when power is applied. Depending on the meter's operational parameters, either one would theoretically be visible on a smart meter.

 

[FlapJacker]

Any capacitive load (digital ballast, LED driver, etc) is going to have a substantial current spike when it is powered up. This is why the contacts for better-quality relays, timers, etc have ratings based on the type of connected load, and capacitive loads are the hardest load to handle for the contacts.

Never having done a comparison with a scope of HID vs LED inrush current, I would suspect that the spike seen from the HID would be much longer. The HID spike comes from the lamp igniting, which is a much slower process than capacitors charging up when power is applied. Depending on the meter's operational parameters, either one would theoretically be visible on a smart meter.

That's what I was thinking. While obviously nobody but the people running the software can give a sure answer, I would suspect the probable software algorithms that have been designed to spot grows via smartmeter would be geared towards more traditional HID.

I wonder if flip flopping LED rooms on alternating times between 11/13 would help keep one off the radar.

 

[rives]

I wonder if flip flopping LED rooms on alternating times between 11/13 would help keep one off the radar.

Possibly, but I think that any reasonably good search routine would pick out highly repetitive load changes over time - the signature spike and the wattage would be impossible to change, so diddling the timing within the limits of what the plant will accept without adversely affecting flowering are what you are left with.

The problem is the nature of lighting - there are no other loads that are constant for extended periods. The only way that I've come up with that could potentially beat a smart meter is to use a large UPS and cut the load back and forth between it and the utility at random intervals.

 

[Jhhnn]

Possibly, but I think that any reasonably good search routine would pick out highly repetitive load changes over time - the signature spike and the wattage would be impossible to change, so diddling the timing within the limits of what the plant will accept without adversely affecting flowering are what you are left with.

The problem is the nature of lighting - there are no other loads that are constant for extended periods. The only way that I've come up with that could potentially beat a smart meter is to use a large UPS and cut the load back and forth between it and the utility at random intervals.

In terms of residential loads I think you're correct. Setup, maintenance & inefficiency of power conversion would make a UPS system like that prohibitively expensive, I think.