Smart Meters, Start up power ballast vs LED?

[BuryMeInTrichs]

I think you may have missed my point as well....

Smell is definitely a factor.... but if you are doing things correctly who is going to smell it?

Having schwag/seeds/stems in my trash... would be bad... but if I were doing things correctly....


and yes you are absolutely right.... if they KNOW I am growing then they are gonna want me.... that just seems like common sense. But how are they gonna know shit, if im doing things correctly.


I definitely appreciate your insight, and I do understand where you are coming from... I may have come off as arrogant but its only because I feel confident--with my situation

 

[FlowerFarmer]

No worries.. I think we were just referring to different situations.


I'm talking about smart meters being used to identify growers from high use 12/12 cycles where they'd be pretty certain as it's indicative of cannabis cultivation. The other details such a smell and trash just being other areas where'd they bolster their reasoning & lawfulness of gaining entry, whether they actually smell or find something or not... My concern and point was that if Smart Meters becoming commonplace in busting illegal growers that would otherwise be covering all your bases like yourself. It's sort of a X factor thing that not even the most careful of growers can avoid if they start busting in on people running high load 12/12 cycles..which seemingly in nearly all cases they'd be successful in finding what they came looking for. I'm not certain that is 100% correct as hot tubs and other high usage devices could be timed to run at the exact 12 hours every day..but that is the discussion at hand.

Sure if it was a shoddy bust with no "legal" right, probable cause, or evidence; a good lawyer could fight the case as illegal search and seizure to try to get the whole thing tossed out... that'd be the most ideal situation, but typically it's more about fines and plea deals. Most cases never get that far. They get thrown a 10 year possible sentence, or simply pay $x while pleading guilty and attending a bunch of BS programs the state offers at our expense. It's a racket for them. Obviously anyone with the funds chooses the later. Don't like it and want to fight it.. it's not wise typically. They'll shoot for the max for declining their offers. This is just how I've seen it go down a number of times in my counties/state.


Don' take any of my posts the wrong way. I'm not trying to rail on or be harsh towards anyone. Just talking and speaking my opinions over here.. sometimes it's hard to express that on the internet.


Take care..

 

[BuryMeInTrichs]

No worries.. I think we were just referring to different situations.


I'm talking about smart meters being used to identify growers from high use 12/12 cycles where they'd be pretty certain as it's indicative of cannabis cultivation. The other details such a smell and trash just being other areas where'd they bolster their reasoning & lawfulness of gaining entry, whether they actually smell or find something or not... My concern and point was that if Smart Meters becoming commonplace in busting illegal growers that would otherwise be covering all your bases like yourself. It's sort of a X factor thing that not even the most careful of growers can avoid if they start busting in on people running high load 12/12 cycles..which seemingly in nearly all cases they'd be successful in finding what they came looking for. I'm not certain that is 100% correct as hot tubs and other high usage devices could be timed to run at the exact 12 hours every day..but that is the discussion at hand.

Sure if it was a shoddy bust with no "legal" right, probable cause, or evidence; a good lawyer could fight the case as illegal search and seizure to try to get the whole thing tossed out... that'd be the most ideal situation, but typically it's more about fines and plea deals. Most cases never get that far. They get thrown a 10 year possible sentence, or simply pay $x while pleading guilty and attending a bunch of BS programs the state offers at our expense. It's a racket for them. Obviously anyone with the funds chooses the later. Don't like it and want to fight it.. it's not wise typically. They'll shoot for the max for declining their offers. This is just how I've seen it go down a number of times in my counties/state.


Don' take any of my posts the wrong way. I'm not trying to rail on or be harsh towards anyone. Just talking and speaking my opinions over here.. sometimes it's hard to express that on the internet.


Take care..

I completely agree with you, in my opinion its heavily based on the scale of the grow.. anything under 1000 watts is pretty safe-when done correctly-In my opinion. Im an advocate of the small scale home grower, and thats who I was bantering on for.

Thanks for the well formulated replies

PS. I didn't really think you put anything in your trash.

 

[OscarTheeGrouch]

Hello, by voltage isolater do you mean an "Isolation Transformer"?

 

[OscarTheeGrouch]

@Oxygen_Man Apparently you have not seen how a fully automated pool and spa system can make meter spin like a dreidel. Mine comes on @8am and shuts down @10pm every day on a perfect schedule. Never a knock or call at my door. Hell, my home theater is over 3000 watts, so the thought of a single 1k grow getting called out is a little tin foil based, however there are some very dirty shenanigans that local LEOs do with utilities. Perhaps to cover ones small hobby, a voltage isolator would be the best bet. It reconditions the power coming in so there is no data that the smart meter can read beyond the device beyond that it is turned on and supplying a static amount of power with no spikes.

Hello, by voltage isolater do you mean an "Isolation Transformer"?

 

[kollos]

Well what do you several people mean with "do it right" if u talk about just the light part ?

Is it better to make all lights go on at exaclly the same time, or make some time inbetween ? I mean what looks best? one big powerup and constant load, or 2-3 smaller onces?

 

[FlowerFarmer]

I'd say 24hr constant load (2 smaller flip rooms) as opposed to large identifiable 12hr intervals . Either way they likely see the flip as well. You typically want to power down the ballasts before the flop so there really isn't anyway around the spikes. Or at least that is how I understand it.

 

[Jhhnn]

I think Oxygen Man has a point. Smart meters are data loggers connected to a computer bank somewhere. They're limited only by the ingenuity & intent of the programmers. I rather suspect that ballasts have a recognizable signature- first the inrush current & then the steady high current over a fixed time period. Nothing else will provide that footprint. They just tell the computer to look for it, make a list. From the list, they can bring up a graphical representation of power usage at any meter for a month or a year in the past. Hell- they can probably set the system to notify them when is sees certain usage patterns.

OTOH, as has been said, power signature alone is insufficient cause for search in most jurisdictions. It's just one of several ways they get a line on growers, then look for other signs or embellish the story to get a warrant.

Old fashioned totalizer meters are bad enough- smart meters just might be the devil.

 

[tenthirty]

A UPS will mask the HID to an extent. Convert to led's with the UPS and your footprint doesn't match any more.

and add some 720nm and run 12/12 to 10.5/13.5 with time overlays for veg and clone.

The pattern gets harder to pick out. Remember computers are usually very literal.

2 pence......

 

[rives]

A UPS will mask the HID to an extent. Convert to led's with the UPS and your footprint doesn't match any more..

Are you talking about using the UPS as a filter to muddy up the ignition spikes? That would help, and Oscar up above was on the right track with an isolation transformer - that's what they are used for in industry. A much-diminished reflection of the spike will still get through, though.

Consider the same components, plus a contactor to switch the power feeding the UPS, and a smart relay with a real-time clock. Program the relay to control the contactor's switching at (various!) intervals and let the UPS carry the lighting load during the down period. The meter sees the power go off, and some period of time later, come back on. However, when it comes back on, the load is much higher than it was when it went off because the batteries on the UPS will start charging. This will taper off at some point when the batteries top off, and the load will change once again.

The latter has about the best chance of working out of anything that I've considered.

 

[Jhhnn]

Are you talking about using the UPS as a filter to muddy up the ignition spikes? That would help, and Oscar up above was on the right track with an isolation transformer - that's what they are used for in industry. A much-diminished reflection of the spike will still get through, though.

Consider the same components, plus a contactor to switch the power feeding the UPS, and a smart relay with a real-time clock. Program the relay to control the contactor's switching at (various!) intervals and let the UPS carry the lighting load during the down period. The meter sees the power go off, and some period of time later, come back on. However, when it comes back on, the load is much higher than it was when it went off because the batteries on the UPS will start charging. This will taper off at some point when the batteries top off, and the load will change once again.

The latter has about the best chance of working out of anything that I've considered.

That'd be a whopper of a UPS for a single 1000w.

Even better would be a solar array where the meter can run backwards, have the lights come on when you're normally selling power back to your provider. Using smaller lamps & staggered startup, the inrush spikes would only appear sometimes rather than daily. Very expensive, however. Not for renters, either.

 

[Jhhnn]

I wonder what sort of power signature an LED array w/ chopper type power supply generates. Is there much of a startup spike?

Anybody know? Rives?

 

[onavelzy]

But to act like a smart meter is gonna "catch" someone with say, 1 light, (or 2 lights, in seperate boxes / tents, flipped) is rediculous... People talk like the smartmeter has figured out exactly which appliance is using the power from which socket in their house and its just bloody nonsense...

There is no chance in hell a smartmeter will see a small grow up that is setup correctly, given all the background spikes in power consumption as washing machines / air conditioning / the kettle / the water heater / the power washer / dish washer and god knows how many other power hungry devices in your home are turned on and off within that period..

If anyone thinks that a smart meter can spot a 600w or 1000w lamp in all that other "traffic" they are smoking something far stronger than weed....

actually, they can. a friend a work showed me an app on his phone that allows him to track his energy consumption at home htrough the day essentially by outlet or appliance.

the company, Bidgely, works with power companies to help them analyze their customers power consumption. they provide customers with an app that lets them see for themselves what is being used.

yes, even within the dimensions of a city, the power company can narrow your personal consumption patterns down to an individual appliance or plug.

that's not to say they will do so. and it's also not to say it is legal for the law enforcement agencies to access this information without a warrant. i believe in most states this is considered illegal search and seizure (based on mainly my readings here. def check on your state and community laws).. as such, any arrest would be invalid. it would also open the power company to law suits for illegal distribution of customer privacy information.

so has that kind of thing happened. sure. is it likely to be a major tool for LED to pursue the moms and pops, even in states without some version of legalization? probably not.

the light is near the end of the tunnel for almost all states. sorry to hear you got nailed like that. what did your lawyer say about the legality of using that information?

 

[rives]

That'd be a whopper of a UPS for a single 1000w.

Actually, I don't think that it would have to be that big - it wouldn't have to carry the load very long in order to disrupt the prolonged, uninterrupted usage that lighting creates and that could easily be caught with programmed searches.

I wonder what sort of power signature an LED array w/ chopper type power supply generates. Is there much of a startup spike?

Anybody know? Rives?

Any switching power supply (computer, digital ballast, LED driver, etc) is going to create a huge spike when they power up. The nature of a capacitive load is that it is nearly a direct short for an instant on startup.

actually, they can. a friend a work showed me an app on his phone that allows him to track his energy consumption at home htrough the day essentially by outlet or appliance.

Indeed they can. I researched the processors being used in smart meters a while back, and they have the potential for unbelievable levels of resolution. They function as an electronic strip chart recorder, but with the capability of microsecond level resolution. Basically, they are a digital storage oscilloscope whose operating parameters can be changed remotely, so if "someone" decides that they need a closer look at your power usage, it's a few keystrokes away.

If you've never used a scope, it's difficult to conceive of the information that is available. If you think of it graphically, every single item that you switch on or off causes a blip on the power line. That blip is on both ends of a line representing the increase or decrease in load that it caused, measurable down to milliwatt level. Most electrical loads fluctuate in both timing and power being used - furnaces may kick on at the same time every day, but the startup signature is entirely different than an HID ignition spike, and the time that it runs will be different every day. The same holds true with water heaters, refrigerators, etc. Lighting is the only load that looks like it does.

Obviously most utilities aren't going to step up for the top-shelf units for the average consumer, and the overwhelming levels of information can't be collected on everyone, but the potential is certainly there. I read one tech article that said that after the databases on equipment signatures are compiled, they will be able to distinguish whether you have a Mitsubishi motor or a GE in your heat pump.

 

[Jhhnn]

actually, they can. a friend a work showed me an app on his phone that allows him to track his energy consumption at home htrough the day essentially by outlet or appliance.

the company, Bidgely, works with power companies to help them analyze their customers power consumption. they provide customers with an app that lets them see for themselves what is being used.

yes, even within the dimensions of a city, the power company can narrow your personal consumption patterns down to an individual appliance or plug.

that's not to say they will do so. and it's also not to say it is legal for the law enforcement agencies to access this information without a warrant. i believe in most states this is considered illegal search and seizure (based on mainly my readings here. def check on your state and community laws).. as such, any arrest would be invalid. it would also open the power company to law suits for illegal distribution of customer privacy information.

so has that kind of thing happened. sure. is it likely to be a major tool for LED to pursue the moms and pops, even in states without some version of legalization? probably not.

the light is near the end of the tunnel for almost all states. sorry to hear you got nailed like that. what did your lawyer say about the legality of using that information?

Yep. Algorithms that can understand the loads.

One of the issues is the hidden circles LEO can use behind the scenes. A snitch at the power company secretly gives 'em a list. They use it to provide likely suspects, follow up, see what they can find. When they find anything, they go to a judge to get access to... records at the power company. In court, the first list doesn't exist, of course.

 

[Jhhnn]

Actually, I don't think that it would have to be that big - it wouldn't have to carry the load very long in order to disrupt the prolonged, uninterrupted usage that lighting creates and that could easily be caught with programmed searches.



Any switching power supply (computer, digital ballast, LED driver, etc) is going to create a huge spike when they power up. The nature of a capacitive load is that it is nearly a direct short for an instant on startup.



Indeed they can. I researched the processors being used in smart meters a while back, and they have the potential for unbelievable levels of resolution. They function as an electronic strip chart recorder, but with the capability of microsecond level resolution. Basically, they are a digital storage oscilloscope whose operating parameters can be changed remotely, so if "someone" decides that they need a closer look at your power usage, it's a few keystrokes away.

If you've never used a scope, it's difficult to conceive of the information that is available. If you think of it graphically, every single item that you switch on or off causes a blip on the power line. That blip is on both ends of a line representing the increase or decrease in load that it caused, measurable down to milliwatt level. Most electrical loads fluctuate in both timing and power being used - furnaces may kick on at the same time every day, but the startup signature is entirely different than an HID ignition spike, and the time that it runs will be different every day. The same holds true with water heaters, refrigerators, etc. Lighting is the only load that looks like it does.

Obviously most utilities aren't going to step up for the top-shelf units for the average consumer, and the overwhelming levels of information can't be collected on everyone, but the potential is certainly there. I read one tech article that said that after the databases on equipment signatures are compiled, they will be able to distinguish whether you have a Mitsubishi motor or a GE in your heat pump.

A smart meter is a single channel event recorder that uploads to a central database. We had multichannel ones in our light rail vehicles. Hook up the laptop, select the channels you want to look at & the time frame, up to a year, depending. Brake pressure, throttle position, motor field current, velocity, axle rpm from 6 axles, door safety loop signal, on and on. Expand a section for a closer look, shrink it down for the long view.

What you're talking about is even more sophisticated where the computer searches the database with algorithms to find most anything you set it to look for.

It's an A#1 rat bastard, for sure, if they want to use it that way.

 

[Easy7]

Seen a vid awhile ago, about college students hacking smart meter signals. Smart enough and you can steal power with over riding the signal and putting out your own

 

[armedoldhippy]

could you put your inside lights on the same circuit as your outdoor security lighting that comes on at dawn & goes off at dusk? it would never be 12 on/12 off. would they look at that & say "hell, its coming on at dusk & shutting off at dawn, gotta be outdoor lighting..." for flowering, it would only work during winter as the dark hours shorten going into spring, but...

 

[OhighO]

I work around power co guys fairly often. According to them 99.99% of the time they don't bust growers unless the are stealing power.... If someone is looking into your smart meter power draw, chances are Leo asked them to do it.

 

[OhighO]

The solution... Use a commercial building. A startup signature would not likely raise eyebrows in a building that typically uses HID for regular lighting. Not ideal for small timers but a solution of sorts..