Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[jidoka]

Here is an example. I checked Nectar for the Gods #4 soil with a Logan test. The ingredients are Sphagnum peat moss, perlite, coir fiber, pumice, mycorrhizal fungi, yucca meal, kelp meal, bone meal, diatomaceous earth, clay, basalt, oyster shell (for pH adjustment), humus and lime (for pH adjustment).

In a video I watched they claimed 2 lbs of bone meal in a 1.5 cubic ft bag or the equivalent of 36 lbs per yard (if you recall that Tom Hill mix he used 33)

tcec 15.49
media weight 27.48 (% of a 2,000,000 lb per acre field soil)
pH 6.8
organic material 28,47
sulfur 14 ppm
m3 P2O5 466 ppm
Ca 2480 ppm or 80.06%
Mg 133 or 7.16%
K 175 or 2.9%
Na 81 or 3%
and a lot of Fe but pretty much no other micros

And the truth is you are gonna have to feed this probably before veg ends for an outdoor grow. And you can bet your ass you need gypsum in this even though it is at 80%

With field soil weight if you hit 250 lbs on Mg and K my experience is you don't have to feed either one of those to get biggish plants

It just does not all add up (at least in my brain) with these low weight, high organic soils

My thinking is this...you would need 4 acres of this stuff to get 133 lbs of Mg (weight is basically 1/4 field soil). Then basically double that to get to 250 lbs needed to grow the crop

in other words I would need 8 yds of this vs 1 yard of heavy soil to grow the same weight of crop. Or I would need to feed a fuckton of nutes to the light soil

And then you could start factoring in oxygen in the root zone...big advantage to light mix. So maybe not 8.

Whole lot more to it than the numbers.

You can see how Slow's plan works though. Especially if you maintain proper ratios in your feed, including micros

 

[paradoxlost]

Hmm I kinda see where your confusion is at...

Maybe a ratio of CEC vs porosity would be a good metric to look at.

Also oxygen levels play a huge role as well. EC is a function not of nutrient levels buy oxidative state of the ions in solution. In a light mix more of the Mg is in an ionic form, or complexed with chelators. In natural soils a lot of times they get tied up in a mineral portion.

I don't know the answer to the problem specifically just spiralling ideas

 

[jidoka]

That 36 lbs/yd is the equivalent of 29,000 lbs per acre. That ain’t a recommendation you are gonna see everyday in farming

 

[led05]

Having a thick O horizon doesn't count towards the consideration of total OM for a soil. Obviously this is a point of contention with some taxonimists, but the general idea is pedogenesis is not occuring, simply decomposition. A soil pedon is to bedrock, and I can assure you those 40% soils you're testing is probably only accurate to the Ap horizon than in the B (or E, if your soil is leeched) it drops down below 1%. The C horizon most assuredly does not have above 12% OM, unless you are in a bog or swamp.

To determine if it's a histosol (or mollisol) you gotta take samples from each horizon than average it. That's how that works for taxonomy. Trust me you're not getting native soil 40% OM unless you're in an alpine situation or a peat bog.

But yeah you gotta clean the instruments before use. But normally soils people are weirdly obsessed with soil.

the 12% was some native around here, very much real, same rates that Fed studies show around these parts via Geo surveys etc... 40% was OM % for medium people make up which is what I believe you originally mentioned, I simply referenced some native areas around here which have a lot of OM for native soils IME, I didn't mean to say it was >40% OM in native. I'm sure there are spots with that much OM though, there just not being farmed for good reason(s).

40% OM native, agreed, bog... lots of clays and bogs around these parts though, where you at isn't everywhere, > 12% OM is by no means unusual in many places around these great lakes

 

[led05]

Hmm I kinda see where your confusion is at...

Maybe a ratio of CEC vs porosity would be a good metric to look at.

Also oxygen levels play a huge role as well. EC is a function not of nutrient levels buy oxidative state of the ions in solution. In a light mix more of the Mg is in an ionic form, or complexed with chelators. In natural soils a lot of times they get tied up in a mineral portion.

I don't know the answer to the problem specifically just spiralling ideas

The answer is......... ALL tests have their limitations, period

I mixed some indoor medium early today for more spring starts, it's great on the arms, feels nice, almost like stretching...

Then I went outside and dug in native (lots of clay, OM & currently, h20) about 100' long by 1' wide and 8-10" deep trench to put some stone in to aid in drainage. That wasn't like stretching at all, my back and neck hurt now

The point, unless you think somehow the "test" accounts perfectly for the hugely different "dirt" I was playing with all day, well we all know the answer......

Jidokas intuitions are spot on and so is paradoxlosts science - both are right

 

[WMICoastal]

so funny organic buds is still here getting made a fool of. some things never change lmao.

 

[Rodehazrd]

so funny organic buds is still here getting made a fool of. some things never change lmao.

I don't understand this post

 

[paradoxlost]

The answer is......... ALL tests have their limitations, period

I mixed some indoor medium early today for more spring starts, it's great on the arms, feels nice, almost like stretching...

Then I went outside and dug in native (lots of clay, OM & currently, h20) about 100' long by 1' wide and 8-10" deep trench to put some stone in to aid in drainage. That wasn't like stretching at all, my back and neck hurt now

The point, unless you think somehow the "test" accounts perfectly for the hugely different "dirt" I was playing with all day, well we all know the answer......

Jidokas intuitions are spot on and so is paradoxlosts science - both are right

Something tells me your back indicates more if you're bending over or crouching down rather than indicate anything about the soil.

Yeah there are limitations, but you're hung up on technician error or unseen limitations. These tests know what their limitations are.

 

[led05]

Something tells me your back indicates more if you're bending over or crouching down rather than indicate anything about the soil.

Yeah there are limitations, but you're hung up on technician error or unseen limitations. These tests know what their limitations are.

haha - my form is the issue, not the task at hand and digging below my feet in a wet swampy mess (that's what happens when 4' of snow melts in a couple days and a couple inches of rain), you ever dig a hole or trench buddy....? Something tells me your time is spent in the lab or classroom and certainly not outdoors... let me guess, soft hands.... my backgrounds are both....

any day you want to challenge on moving dirt or stone with a shovel I'm game - lmao - I dug & moved probably 6 yards + of wet soaking native by digging a 100' + trench by hand in under 4 hours..... I also lined one side of it with Cinders blocks the whole length I had laying around from a GH I built .. Next I'll fit it with #2 & #3 stones to make it look pretty and work better, that has to wait till ground hardens up though.

I made an analogy, perhaps it was missed, my back will be just fine friend

Not hung up on Tech error, I understand human error including the one sending in the soil for testing, I also understand point in time and every test has limitations.

I'm pretty sure your that classroom theory guy without any hands on experience or knowledge, it shows

 

[EasyGoing]

so funny organic buds is still here getting made a fool of. some things never change lmao.

What the hell are you talking about you little hobbit. Go back and hide under your hole you pussy. When I was in your face kicking your lame ass off my property, you didn't say a word. Now on line you start talking smack. Pathetic. You stole from me, you stole from your boss before that. YOu have now been fired from three grows in a row. I know what you next move should be........ talk smack online.........lame.

I don't understand this post

Don't worry, he is just broke and bitter cause he has no grow. I understand, but why he attacks me after running like a scared dog the last time we met is beyond me.

BTW......... He was so scared, his forced his girl to come and pick up the last payment for trimming. Three people trimmed 17 pounds in over a month. Yea, I fired his lazy ass. New trim crew is cheaper per pound, and knocks out about 100 lbs in 3 days. They show up in the AM, leave in the PM, and bring thier own food too.

In case any of you other growers want to get rid of the over deserving, lazy trimmer. Call Emerald Peak. They service from Humboldt to La. Best 75k I spend a year. They bag and tag every pound, and log every gram of trim and sticks. Weigh in's equal weigh outs. All printed up and sent to your email. All ready for taxes for those of us trying to stay legal.


Now back to the SlowN thread.

 

[led05]

What the hell are you talking about you little hobbit. Go back and hide under your hole you pussy. When I was in your face kicking your lame ass off my property, you didn't say a word. Now on line you start talking smack. Pathetic. You stole from me, you stole from your boss before that. YOu have now been fired from three grows in a row. I know what you next move should be........ talk smack online.........lame.



Don't worry, he is just broke and bitter cause he has no grow. I understand, but why he attacks me after running like a scared dog the last time we met is beyond me.



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BTW......... He was so scared, his forced his girl to come and pick up the last payment for trimming. Three people trimmed 17 pounds in over a month. Yea, I fired his lazy ass. New trim crew is cheaper per pound, and knocks out about 100 lbs in 3 days. They show up in the AM, leave in the PM, and bring thier own food too.

In case any of you other growers want to get rid of the over deserving, lazy trimmer. Call Emerald Peak. They service from Humboldt to La. Best 75k I spend a year.

ur a nicer guy than me.... stole from you and allowed to leave..... Good restraint Easy ! ..... "Nows you can't leave "

 

[EasyGoing]

Guy is 5 ft nothing, has done nothing athletic in his life, and has health issues. I wanted to beat his ass believe me. It just wouldn't of been fair. Hobbits don't fight well, they are better hiders. lol. I am 6 ft 220, and I am a trained boxer. Only boxed for 3 years, but it sticks with you. It would have been a blood bath. All a bulldog can do is just keep enjoying life, while looking strange at the haters.

 

[EasyGoing]

haha -

any day you want to challenge on moving dirt or stone with a shovel I'm game - lmao - I dug & moved probably 6 yards + of wet soaking native by digging a 100' + trench by hand in under 4 hours..... I also lined one side of it with Cinders blocks the whole length I had laying around from a GH I built .. Next I'll fit it with #2 & #3 stones to make it look pretty and work better, that has to wait till ground hardens up though.

In the bay area, the ground is soooooo soft. I dug a trench with two other guys, 8 ft deep, 5 feet wide down a hillside equipment wasn't able to be used. The trench was about 500 ft long, and it took us maybe 3 days?

Now I come up and try to dig a 6" deep, 6"wide trench to run drip lines under the soil to eliminate trip hazards, 5 ft long from one bed to the other. That takes like 4 hours in this ridiculously hard soil.

Life's a garden, can ya dig it?

Anybody that thinks there isn't technique behind digging, hasn't really done any digging. It's like a thing of art when done right. One swing, one clean slice of dirt.

 

[reppin2c]

you ever dig a hole or trench buddy....?

Should have seen the trenches my turbo sled left yesterday. Miles

 

[led05]

Should have seen the trenches my turbo sled left yesterday. Miles

how deep was the powder ? 72 here now, by tonight it'll be freezing, do what you can when you can in spring around here

 

[led05]

In the bay area, the ground is soooooo soft. I dug a trench with two other guys, 8 ft deep, 5 feet wide down a hillside equipment wasn't able to be used. The trench was about 500 ft long, and it took us maybe 3 days?

Now I come up and try to dig a 6" deep, 6"wide trench to run drip lines under the soil to eliminate trip hazards, 5 ft long from one bed to the other. That takes like 4 hours in this ridiculously hard soil.

Life's a garden, can ya dig it?

Anybody that thinks there isn't technique behind digging, hasn't really done any digging. It's like a thing of art when done right. One swing, one clean slice of dirt.

I was digging in the rain yesterday because it's much softer then, overland water flow, ground completely and totally saturated from snow melt & rain. The clay / shale / loam / silt / sand / OM all on a hard stop 3-4' down on limestone bedrock around here makes for very tough digging when drier... I was also digging solely for the purpose of draining water, in this little mind having the water there for me means I don't have to think at all about how well it's sloped

 

[paradoxlost]

haha - my form is the issue, not the task at hand and digging below my feet in a wet swampy mess (that's what happens when 4' of snow melts in a couple days and a couple inches of rain), you ever dig a hole or trench buddy....? Something tells me your time is spent in the lab or classroom and certainly not outdoors... let me guess, soft hands.... my backgrounds are both....

any day you want to challenge on moving dirt or stone with a shovel I'm game - lmao - I dug & moved probably 6 yards + of wet soaking native by digging a 100' + trench by hand in under 4 hours..... I also lined one side of it with Cinders blocks the whole length I had laying around from a GH I built .. Next I'll fit it with #2 & #3 stones to make it look pretty and work better, that has to wait till ground hardens up though.

I made an analogy, perhaps it was missed, my back will be just fine friend

Not hung up on Tech error, I understand human error including the one sending in the soil for testing, I also understand point in time and every test has limitations.

I'm pretty sure your that classroom theory guy without any hands on experience or knowledge, it shows

But no haha my hands are raw. I've spent time I a lab when I was in college. Which is recent. I'm young. But I could turn a nail with my hands from working in the desert with atvs. Done a lot of conservation plantings. My agronomy experience is in labs, a lot. Never done large scale farming. But my sois experience is in pedogenesis and geomorphology. Done a lot of field work in that. A lot more interesting than ag imo.

I just didn't want to talk shit on your form everyone knows to lift with your back in a jerking motion

 

[jidoka]

Hey paradox...you ever do any tissue testing? ICP?

 

[plantingplants]

just about cried trying to drag one of these things on a hill thru the rocks and hard clay out here. it was getting stuck, tipping over, rolling down the hill, couldnt cut the earth... i was trying to trench a gopher fence. wasn't able to do it.. it couldn't handle it. need a more powerful one.

 

[paradoxlost]

Hey paradox...you ever do any tissue testing? ICP?

I have not, although this summer I will be involved in a large scale hemp cultivation operation and would like to take weekly sap tests and correlate them with weekly soil tests.