SICK GIRLS. nute diffiency or something else? [pics]

[HeadyPete]

Hi, sorry flor but it is you who is incorrect. There is plenty of documentation to back me up. 7 neutral has no bearing on the scale. It works any way, up or down.

Like I said before, 7 is 10x as acidic as 8, and 6 is 100x acid as 8.

http://vpmt.com/ph-scale.htm

In a sense, all that most aquarists need to know is that pH is a measure of the hydrogen ions in solution, and that the scale is logarithmic. That is, at pH 6 there is 10 times as much H+ as at pH 7, and that at pH 6 there is 100 times as much H+ as at pH 8. Consequently, a small change in pH can mean a big change in the concentration of H+ in the water.

From wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH

Explanation

In simpler terms, the number arises from a measure of the activity of hydrogen ions (or their equivalent) in the solution. The pH scale is an inverse logarithmic representation of hydrogen proton (H+) concentration. Unlike linear scales which have a constant relations between the item being measured (H+ concentration in this case) and the value reported, each individual pH unit is a factor of 10 different than the next higher or lower unit. For example, a change in pH from 2 to 3 represents a 10-fold decrease in H+ concentration, and a shift from 2 to 4 represents a one-hundred (10 × 10)-fold decrease in H+ concentration. The formula for calculating pH is:

\mbox{pH} = -\log_{10} \alpha_{\mathrm{H}^+}

Where αH+ denotes the activity of H+ ions, and is dimensionless. In solutions containing other ions, activity and concentration will not generally be the same. Activity is a measure of the effective concentration of hydrogen ions, rather than the actual concentration; it includes the fact that other ions surrounding hydrogen ions will shield them and affect their ability to participate in chemical reactions. These other ions change the effective amount of hydrogen ion concentration in any process that involves H+.

If you look at the ph scale at wiki you see some interesting things.

Cola has a ph of 2.5 mostly because of the phosphoric acid, which gives cola the bite, and interferes with your body's ability to take in calcium. Phosphoric acid is used as a ph down in growing. Osteoporosis anyone?

Bleach, chlorine, has a ph of 12.5! This is why chlorinated tap water is high ph, along with a high mineral content, if present. This is also why people bubble their tapwater overnight to release the chlorine from the water as a gas, and to bring down the ph probably closer to around 8. Still too high to water with unless you soil reads 5.8 or lower.

 

[Guest]

looks like Ph to me too.

make sure you flush with the right ph h20... 1/4 to 1/2 strenth feed...3-4 days later...
let her dry out after the flush.
cool thread... good luck man.

 

[Guest]

ive seen that happen....its ph issue man. that stops the feeding...you get overfed..all kinds of other problems... FLUSH the heck out of em...
they'll make it.

 

[HeadyPete]

Hi Joe, thanks for coming by. Your tat says it all!

 

[HeadyPete]

Cola has a ph of 2.5 mostly because of the phosphoric acid, which gives cola the bite, and interferes with your body's ability to take in calcium. Phosphoric acid is used as a ph down in growing. Osteoporosis anyone?

You know this got me thinking about some issues I had back a while.

I had Cal def, for sure, so I upped the CalMax to 8ml/4L and all seemed well and it is good now.

I just realized that around that same time I stopped using phosphoric acid as ph down and started using fulvic acid.

Knowing that excessive phosphoric acid interferes with calcium in the body, it must interfere with calcium in the marihauna plant as well, perhaps causing my cal def, or at least contributing to it, blocking some and requiring more calmax. Too much phosphoric acid ph down blocking the calcium. Hmmmm........I am gonna dial back down to 5mL/4L on my younger girls and see how that grabs them.

 

[inverse]

wow so i came back today after flushing them last night and it looks like my ak has gotten way worse. i dont have time to read all of these great posts yet but i just thought id let you know. even the new leaves are showing weird gray spots and the leaves look realluy spotty (between green colors) with gray necrotic spots all over. wtf .

none of my other plants reacted badly, although the odyssey is still really droopy

 

[Levitikuz]

was your soil still wet from your last watering when you flushed them yesturday?
How many days in a row has your soil been atleast moist?

 

[Guest]

Hi, sorry flor but it is you who is incorrect. There is plenty of documentation to back me up. 7 neutral has no bearing on the scale. It works any way, up or down.

Like I said before, 7 is 10x as acidic as 8, and 6 is 100x acid as 8.

Ph is logarithmic. 7.6 is 10 times as alkaline as 6.6 and 100 times more alkaline than 5.6.


http://vpmt.com/ph-scale.htm



From wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH

Here I thought you made a careless mistake and it was only my ignorance in the subject.....

My concept was destroyed....

I had seen many examples of the 10x and 100x but always either acid or base....

Here is a link I found what demonstrates at a glance why I was wrong....

http://library.advanced.org/3659/acidbase/ph.html

On this point I concede to the smarter man.....

thanks for the help....

 

[inverse]

was your soil still wet from your last watering when you flushed them yesturday?
How many days in a row has your soil been atleast moist?

yeah its still moist from yesterdays watering.

i water every 4th day when the pots feel alot lighter and when i stick my finger into the soil i only feel moisture deeeeeeep.

 

[Levitikuz]

it might be overwatering....you should invest $4 in a moister meter and stick it all the way down into the bottom of your pot and wait to water until its considered "dry" on the meter...it is such a nice investment, takes all the guess work out of it...i dont care how expierenced you are they are such a great little tool you will never miss it once you get one.
The reason is because if one of ur plants got alot worse after you flushed it sounds like it got even more pissed off after the soil got wet again.

 

[HuffAndPuff]

Um, just a thought here, let's not all get worked up... But just assume that ANY plant was suffering from ANY deficiency, ok. This defieciency is not caused by lockout. Say you think there is an over-fert issue, so you flush the soil- washing away much of what little fert was in the soil. Wouldn't the problem get worse?
HuffAndPuff

 

[Levitikuz]

good point my man! ^^

 

[thekingofNY]

wow so i came back today after flushing them last night and it looks like my ak has gotten way worse. i dont have time to read all of these great posts yet but i just thought id let you know. even the new leaves are showing weird gray spots and the leaves look realluy spotty (between green colors) with gray necrotic spots all over. wtf .

none of my other plants reacted badly, although the odyssey is still really droopy

Sad to here this, haven't been by these forums in awhile, but when did everyone get so damn hostile? Everyone needs to smoke a ****ing bowl before they post or something.

That said, I dont have too many grows under my belt, however 75% of them had issues with PH, although only one grow had spots like those, and I had to scrap it before they got more than a few weeks anyways so it didnt really matter....HOWEVER with that said, nearly all of mine were stunted at the same time (my grow with spots like those)

I never found it necessary to go crazy with nutrients, few basics which were recommended by elders in my 50/50 perlite&vermlite/soil medium w/a bit of lime and something else.

damn my shiatty memory, my nutes were organic liquid and very mild, one for vegging, another for flowering... however they both seemed to work well with the high PH tap water (7.5) to lower it down to 6.something

Although I do agree some of that doesnt look like PH problem, I think it could be related to a nute lockout at the roots...thats what i think stunted my plants originally...

Original poster, what are you using to "flush" the plants?
What is your soil mixture? Pardon me if you mentioned this already...

 

[thekingofNY]

Um, just a thought here, let's not all get worked up... But just assume that ANY plant was suffering from ANY deficiency, ok. This defieciency is not caused by lockout. Say you think there is an over-fert issue, so you flush the soil- washing away much of what little fert was in the soil. Wouldn't the problem get worse?
HuffAndPuff

If you think its a over-fert issue, and you flush the soil, the problem should get better....because you would be elimating the ferts that are causing the problems, as long as there is still the basics nutrients in the soil.

I don't understand the logic at all of why the problem would get worse?
I really agree we all need to smoke a bowl....I'll pack up some oil for the group.

EDIT: wait a minute, are you saying a deficiency is not caused by a lockout, and it was caused by over-ferting? I wouldn't imagine that is very probably at all, possible yes, but not probable.

I would imagine the most logical way to solve this is to write down all the possible problems, cross out the obvious ones that it isnt, like heat stress is the only one i saw that I don't think it is. You can grow at 85-90 degrees without any problems....no sources for this, although I didn't read it

asses the bowl to the right:

So how bout everyone post what they think this ISNT, and a short reason why....heat stress; 80 degrees is perfect for cannabis sativa or indica, especially in veg. I have gone up too 90 the whole time the plant grew, although it was almost 100% sativa (i grew indoors )
I have also gone up to 90 degrees with very indica dominant plants with no problems, granted the humidity was non existent in both these places. (At lights off the temps would drop down to 78-80 for veg and about 5 degrees colder for flowering.

In the meantime I am really interested in when the original poster last changed the soil/repotted and what mixture he is using? Also what he flushed with... tap water, spring water, distilled, boiled ?
Put your hand above your plants when your lights have been on for while, right at their highest points,

Can you keep your hand there comfortably/is there air moving around?
If yes then heat is probably not an issue.

 

[inflorescence]

Um, just a thought here, let's not all get worked up... But just assume that ANY plant was suffering from ANY deficiency, ok. This defieciency is not caused by lockout. Say you think there is an over-fert issue, so you flush the soil- washing away much of what little fert was in the soil. Wouldn't the problem get worse?
HuffAndPuff

But most every deficiency IS caused by lockout. Rarely do people add too little of one nute. Ususally they use a balanced fert and the pH causes one (or more) of the nutes to be unavailable, MIMICKING a deficiency, but the nutes are present, just not available so the word deficiency can be mis-leading.

 

[inverse]

alright i jsut read headypetes long post about ph and all of the other great posts. today when i checked my plants i noticed that they were all somewhat droopy, looking like textbook overwatering, except my og kush which i havnt flushed and havnt watered since monday morning, which is doing fine. my ak-47 has leaves looking just as bad as the masterkush now (the ones i took pics of before with the dark spots are now almost completely yellow showing signs of advanced ph problems). Odyssey looking droopy as ever, as well as the sour diesel which still has those cupping leaves. this is honestly really frustrating and sorta sad . Anyways, i think i might switch the 600 out for a 400 until i flower these guys as you suggested heat might be an issue pete. other than that im going to let them dry out and hope they improve with the next watering which ill add 1/4 growbig to. im keeping a log of ph before i water my plants using my hanna digi tester. i think ill take some pics of the ak for you guys soon.

In the meantime I am really interested in when the original poster last changed the soil/repotted and what mixture he is using? Also what he flushed with... tap water, spring water, distilled, boiled ?
Put your hand above your plants when your lights have been on for while, right at their highest points,

Can you keep your hand there comfortably/is there air moving around?
If yes then heat is probably not an issue.

I think it could be related to a nute lockout at the roots

i transplanted them all into fox farms happy frog/ocean forest mix about 2 and a half to 3 weeks ago. i flushed them on thursday evening with ph 6.6 water for half and 6.8 for half, both from a purified water store. i put my hand underneath the light and the air is moving around nicely and it doesn't make my hand hot. i don't think heat is an issue in my closet, although last night my temps dropped to 62 with the lights off which might be a cause for concern, i dont know. i was also wondering if even though i wait until the soil dries down quite a bit from the surface and the pot lightens in weight, if maybe deep down in the 3 gallon pot there might be constant moisture causing root rot? would that exhibit these symptoms. i dunno, right now im jsut paranoid as hell thinking everything is causing my plants to get ****ed up, although its probably quite simple.

thanks for all the help

 

[HeadyPete]

I'll wait to see pix before further commenting. Definitely change that light to a 400w.

On the question of flushing out nutes, the first thing to show deficient is Nitrogen, your lower leaves of all your plants would be yellowing as the plants move N, the major nutrient most in demand during vegging, especially at a high wattage such as 600 hps.

Overferting first shows as tip burn. Overferting can also lock out other nutes.

I am pretty sure it is a ph issue, which will take a little time to correct, and a heat issue, and at the moment the are pretty overwatered.

You can pop one out of the pot and check the roots. Check for brown rotten, soft or slimy roots, but it doesn't happen if you aren't overwatering in soil with drainage in the pots. Check for rootbound pots as well. Just cuz there are no roots sticking out holes doesn't mean they aren't overgrown.

 

[inverse]

 

[HeadyPete]

Looks like heat stress and underfeeding. Yellowing lower leaves.

Let them dry before feeding again. They won't die from a little underfeeding that fast.

I don't know what those brown dead spots are, there are plant viruses and they are incurable, but I just don't know yet. I'll keep working on it....

Generally your plants don't look that bad at all, so don't stress too much yet.

 

[HuffAndPuff]

King, I agree that this got out of control and I would like to apologize for allowing myself to be baited, and for responding as such in this thread. As far as what you and somone else was wondering about what I was saying...

I was saying that hypothetically- you can have a potting soil that doesn't have nutes and then if you fail to give these plants enough nutes (assume they are heavy feeders), but you still flush them out (thinking, mistakenly there is an overfert) then the soil is going to have very little nutrients in it, and the plant will exhibit deficiencies. In his first post, he said...

these clones are about 3 weeks old, but ive only had them in my pots for about 2 weeks. They've really been growing supppper fast until these last few days. I started feeding them about a week ago 1/4 fox farms grow big twice in a row and last watering gave them no food.

Why isn't it possible that the plants just wanted more food than they were getting? 1/4 strength of FFGB might not have been enough, even twice in a row. (followed by regular water)

RE: Magnesium deficiency...
Florigen said in another thread that the praying for magnesium thing is bunk, no info, blah blah. I addressed that part there, what I want to do is highlight the other issues that resemble it.

"Interveinal yellowing and rust/brown spots appear on older and middle aged-leaves, younger leaves appear healthy" "This progresses its way up the plant" -Cervantes

"Lower leaves turn yellow leaving only the veins pigmented" -Rosenthal.

That's what it looks like these plants are showing, in addition to several other developing issues. If there wasn't enough fert, and he's done all this flushing, then they would be showing deficiencies.

Oh, and to be clear for florigen, although I basically said this in the other thread- The leaf praying is an upper leaf, which is not where magnesium deficiency is first noticed. The biggest effects start out low on the plant, which is what is happening here.

You tell me that because I say that upper leaf looks like "it is praying for magnesium", and yet that leaf is not exhibiting interveinal chlorosis, I must be saying that a plant does not need to exhibit interveinal chlorosis to be magnesium deficient. This is not at all what I am saying. In fact, I said that the plant is showing this on the lower leaves plenty of times. The problem hasn't gotten bad enough to affect the upper leaves in that way. It is just merely expressing it as an upper leaf with the problem sometimes does- by praying for magnesium.

HuffAndPuff

[EDIT: That drooping is from the recent flushings, but does one of those first pictures show that the necrosis has spread to an upper leaf? That would make sense if the plants don't have enough nutes and the deficiencies are progressing, as I have been saying]