Seeds of Clone Only

[Guest]

It's sounding like a really discouraging course....is that everyones opinion? I think I have every bit of potential for a proper breeding project, as does anyone else.

whats is the definition of real professional breeding?

listen im not tryin to come across as some snob, truely i dont have enough experience to prove/disprove anything.

i have not run 1000s of plants if you combined every grow ive done. ive only put alot of work in one line, which imo is not worth offerin for sale, fine for single runs, as potentcy, frost and yields are pretty good, but i wasnt breedin for that. what i was tryin to infuse into a large number of plants aint happenin.

come on sbaegis, what do you think a professional breeder is, it sure aint guys makin 1:1 crosses, linin up a shit load of hyped cuts and hittin um with a few males. bangin two plants outta a seed pack.

imo theres nothin wrong with that, but get a grip and call it what it is, a fuckin and nothin else. yeah the resultin population may be great, but its not like ya get to slap the breeder title on yourself cause ya made some seed, that was so easy a caveman could do it, lol.

how many quality lines are out there, were if its called strawberry, lemon, raspberry or any other flavor, do all the females exhibit that trait? shit, name anything were you get a high percentage of the breeders description in a population. Pffft........

very few.

anyway what i have said is my opinion on what i have experienced. i had thought i could do it, and maybe down the road with more experience i might come up with somethin worthwhile.

imo if you think your gonna breed filial gens, or preserve anything with a few 12X12 rooms, no experience with crossin plants and observin there outcome, and doin it many times, your token a empty pipe.

ill quit for now, as i can see there isnt to many that wanna do much talkin along these lines, maybe hit a sore spot.

CBF

 

[Guest]

im not tryin to put a dampner on your goals either bro, just fillin ya in on what i think.

if you have the resources for goin big, then im envious, and wish you well. as with many of us, we like the breedin part of growin weed. it is quite a bit of fun, and somethin to do while growin.

guys have there ideas, and there own methods, im not one to say whats right and wrong. just keep in mind what ive said, and be humble.

do the deed bro, and look at what the results are, thats the first step, just do it

CBF

 

[beancounter]

largest population ive looked at was a 50 bean run, most have been 20 to 40 at a time. always goin with the 50/50 ratio and bein able to fit 25 females in flower. those numbers jam my OP up.

whenever i do a good sized run, i have to remove all moms and males from the veg spot as i dont have enough room.

if you just run 20 plants, you double that right off keepin cuts from the seedplants. 40 plants gives me the heebeegeebees,lol. so the numbers deal, restricts what i can do, to the point that IBL, or preservation is outta the question.

if ya had say 100 beans of a old skool rare landrace, are ya preservin the line with those 100 beans? imo no, your preservin that small amount of genes within that batch, not the entire genetic diversity of the original. thats not hard to fathom.

back before the war, there were many growin huge populations, breedin outdoors. most have moved indoors, where runnin big populations is limited. i dont think your gonna see the great lines from the 70s developed anymore just due to that fact.

i had my own ideas, one of those was that runnin big numbers to create anything was BS, every plant in a line should have all the genes of the line, and at some point display um. due to combination some plants wouldnt display um, recessive and such. in my mind i debunked that theory on my own. each plant is a individual and does not carry the entire genome of a given line. very easy to loose a trait you were actually breedin for.

what im referin to is filial gens, growin continuein generations. takin a IBL, a grower could muck it up very easy, just use some untested males, and the next gen will not be representative of what you started with, or you can get lucky. and if your not usin big numbers your droppin genes as you go along, like a sick dog with the shits, LOL. every gen you lose somethin.

if you took the time to test and find a few good males and females of that IBL, do you feel you are actually truely reproducin that line in the form you recieved it? i dont believe so.

anyway, real professional breedin is not whats taken place with most seed makers/breeders, steppin back and really thinkin about what your doin, and bein true to your self, most will realize there just fuckin around.

take care all
CBF

I understand completely what you're saying^ and I agree with most of it..


But at the same time, I still think it's much better off to do what you can with those 30-50 seeds (if that's what u got, like in my case with HTC stock) than not do anything at all.

keeping clones of each doesn't intimidate me, so i don't mind doing 40 or more, but i like to do them 5-10 beans at a time, which allows me to cull out any mutants/runts and prune back the males before starting the next set.. leaving me with only 'healthy' (visualy) individuals of the line..


I am totaly honest with my self, i am not profeesional breeder with the space to do 1000s of plants.. But I may have the space one day and that could all change..


Altho 'preserving' any line with 30-50 beans isn't the best case scenerio, it's still much better than nothing IMHO..

I'd rather end up with most of the genes than none..


I believe that breeding for growers with small spaces is all about the testing and keeping/using what's good, and leaving the rest..

we may not have the huge numbers necessary to do 'proper' projects, but with proper testing it's not hard to come up with a decent line..


You've said (correct me if I'm wrong) before you thought Rez accomplished his goals with his SDIBL.. and we all know he wasn't running any GHs to accomplish this.. The SDIBL may not be a perfect IBL representation of the clone, but it's still a worthy line (from all reports).. all done in small rooms and closets was it not?


I understand what you're saying cbf, don't get me wrong.. I just think there's more value in working with what you have, than not working it at all..

If, people still want any of the HTC stuff, they will all know exactly what went into it, and can make their decisions from there.. I'd jus rather have something than nothing at all..

But i do know others that think the other way because they're so firmly set in 'don't bother unless u can grow 1000s' mentality.. well, most times, we don't have 1000s, or even 100s.

 

[beancounter]

an I agree sbaegis, jus do it.. try both methods if u can..

You may find that a simple S1 is all you were really after, depending on the clone u are using.. Some clones take to S1 extremely well, and there's no harm in skipping steps if you just want these for personal use and friends..

good luck bro, and indeed, keep us updated..

 

[Guest]

just the numbers was directed at you BC, sorry should of seperated better, that whole post was in no way directed at you..

i agree, do what ya can with what ya have. im just sayin

i dont do no numbers either, as for Rez, yep he did quite a few gens, and best of my knowledge he tossed a entire gen and went another way with it.

the IBL tag, i dont care one way or the other i have my opinion what i think as i said above. but from reports and pics, i havent grown anything from Rez(he never offered)the sour Deez offerin looks pretty good, seems it yields more, carries the tastes, aromas, thicker stalks and from all reports pretty potent, prolly more so then the clone.

maybe explain better, i dont carry any animosity towards any breeders techniques, many different ways to go about it, and alot of what you do is dependent on what you want to offer the growin community.could be a IBL line, a landrace, or hybrids up to polyhybrids.

im no authority, just what i think, and alot of what i think is assbackwards, lol

take care BC
CBF

 

[beancounter]

I knew your weren't directing that at me bro, no harm..

It was jus a very easy and convenient example.. since it's on my mind 24/7 these days...

and I know you're not trying to beat down any breeders..


don't stop giving us info from your own experience bro.. I'm the 1st to admit I'm new to breeding and have TONs to learn yet, and i just try to do the best with what i have.. I'm sure i'll change directions/theories many times in the future, and have lots of disapointments, hopefully followed by a few successes.


You stress many good points, I just wanted a lil more clarification for my own self.. wasn't trying to pick apart your feelings/opinion.. you are definately entitled to them :smile:

thanks for the back and forth bro, take care.

 

[pipeline]

Great thread guys! This is something I've thought of before. Cannabis breeding has really been forced into a minimizing situation. Like beancounter said, we can work with what we have room and time to do, but its in no way an ideal breeding environment....

I really think our day is coming though.

A cataloging/organizing system is likely a necessity when projects are drug out over long periods of time. Not sure if you've seen this DJ short article:
------------------------------
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=9786
------------------------------
My Cataloguing System

c. 2004 DJ Short

Perhaps one of the most useful devices used in a quality cannabis breeding project is that of catalogue techniques. This refers to the method used to categorize various traits for future reference, or how to best label traits from a given population. It is also a means to track who came from where (generational references).

First and foremost, I cannot begin to describe the level of complexity involved with a breeding project that extends from the f-2 to the f-5 range. It took me over a decade and a half of trial and much error to fully comprehend and develop a system that actually works to this level and beyond. It starts out simple enough, until the f-2's, then the complexity expands exponentially with each generation.

The P-1's are simple enough, they are the original breed-stock and labeled for what they are, i.e. Highland, Purple or Chocolate Thai, Oaxacan or Santa Marta Gold, Pure Afghan, etc. The f-1's were equally simple as they were of uniform expressions and I simply chose to label them “The Cross”. The f-2 generation was equally easy to identify with the label “Double Cross”, or the progeny of the f-1 cross. However, when the f-2's were grown out, extreme diversity ruled the making of the f-3's (or the descriptions of the f-2's selected to breed further with) a tougher call to make.

It is at this level (and beyond) that some form of labeling system becomes necessary to catalogue all of the different variations found. Beginning with the plants grown out from the f-2 seeds I chose to utilize an alphabetized system with each letter corresponding to a specific trait. For example, the letter “B” came to signify the “Berry” characteristic, “F” stands for “Fruity” (sometimes “Floral“), “G” is for Grape, “C” for Citrus, “O” for orange, “L” for lemon or lime, “K” equaled “Kush”, “S” for “Sativa” “P” for Purple, “X” for extreme glandular trichome production, etc.

I must confess that it took much trial and error to finally get it right. Therefore, if one were to look at my early notes many exceptions to what developed as “the rule” can be found. I left these early “mistakes” as they were so as not to over-complicate what came next. It is also very important to note that most of these observations were relatively subjective and that no more than two traits, or characteristics were ever assigned to any one plant. Therefore, the label “BK” came to stand for “Berry Kush”, or a Kush dominant plant with outstanding berry attributes. It is also important to note that only the most outstanding plant of any given attribute was selected for future work. So the plant that ended up with the “BK” label was the most Berry-Kush of the lot.

So, my f-3 stock became labeled with a two-letter code indicating what the most outstanding characteristics of it’s parent (primarily mother) were, and only those with the strongest expressions earned their label. When the f-3's were grown out and crossed to make the f-4 generation, these labels were coupled to indicate the parents of the f-4 progeny, i.e. BK/FS would be a cross between an f-3 Berry-Kush mother (I always list the female first, male second with a back-slash in between) and an f-3 Fruity Sativa father.

F-4's and Beyond

Consider the label number: 4/5 3 96-2. This is the type of numbering symbol I use to label F-4 and beyond plants. Before we dissect this number I need to point out a few rules that I follow in a breeding project beyond the F-4 generation.

First, I only grow out no more than six varieties at any single time. The reason is to avoid too much confusion. Six is about the maximum number of varieties an individual can realistically keep track of. These six (or five, or four etc.) varieties are then labeled as “1" through “6" (or the number of varieties used). Let’s say the 6 f-3's I use are: 1. “FK/FK”, 2. “BK/PK”, 3. “FK/FL”, 4. “GK/GK”, 5. “PK/FP” and 6. “XP/FK”. Notes are made to record this fact and the seeds are then sprouted and grown using these simple, single digit identification numbers (1 through 6 in this example).

Second, I select only one male from any single breeding project. Again, this simplifies things and avoids mistakes enormously. That male is generally selected at about the third week in the flowering cycle, unless it is a clone from another project. After the single male is selected the other males are removed and the remaining females are numbered according to their variety category (i.e. if there are seven #1. females, five #2 females, etc. they are labeled #1–1 through 7, #2–1 through 5, etc.) The male simply retains the number from its variety label, in our above example the number “5" (in the 4/5), or the “PK/FP” male.

Now we may examine the above example: 4/5 3 96-2. The first two numbers, “4/5" are the variety number of the female first and male second. So in this case that would be: a “GK/GK” female crossed with the “PK/FP” male. The third number in our example, “3" means female #3 from the #4 (“GK/GK”) batch. The next number in the example, “96" is merely the year and the final number is the crop number for that year. So, translated, the number 4/5 3 96-2 is the third “GK/GK” (or #4) female crossed with the “PK/FP” (or #5) male grown from the second crop of 1996.

Please note that the “/5” male-used indicator will be /5 for all of the seeds labeled from this batch as the #5 (“PK/FP”) male is the only one used. If a male clone from a past crop is used it may be indicated by using the #7 in the initial notes (if six varieties are sprouted) and described as the male-clone-used in the #7 description. Likewise, if any of the six varieties tested are from a past clone (female), they may be selected as one of the #1 through #6 varieties, labeled and described accordingly.

It seems complex at first, but I assure you that it works great. The same system is used for the F-5 generation, and beyond. The system merely requires that dated notes be kept and catalogued. That way, any crosses may be backtracked and referenced via one’s notes and a simple, six or seven digit code is all that is needed to label and catalogue one’s plants.

Finally, this system works best for forward crosses mainly. Backcrosses will need another connotation to note their use . The “clone-used” labeling described prior works well for backcrosses involving clones.

This system is good for only one grow out at a time. If multiple grows, or facilities are used then they will need to be noted as well, perhaps with a lettered “A”, “B”, “C” etc. appended onto the catalogue number. Also, detailed notes of each individual plant are necessary to fully utilize any cataloguing system and are obviously required for success. Other than that, I have found this to be a relatively simple and foolproof system for cataloguing one’s breeding projects beyond the f-3 generation.
Red is online now Add to Red's Reputation Report Bad Post Only this users posts

 

[Guest]

imo if you think your gonna breed filial gens, or preserve anything with a few 12X12 rooms, no experience with crossin plants and observin there outcome, and doin it many times, your token a empty pipe.

I agree. But there is only one way to get the knowledge of this and the experience. That goes hand in hand with the science and for many that are not academically gifted it is the spark that lights the fire to get the science learnt. What you have faced and learnt is exactly what we all have I feel who breed plants and who set out down the road. It is the starting point I feel, either you get serious or you stop. This applies to all plant breeding, of any type.

Obviously you cannot preserve genetics in this way (indoors/box's), in these type of facilities, massive diversity of populations don't fit easily in small boxes. However there is still good and useful work that can be done in those environments. I think Vic worked out a lot of useful ways of getting the most out of small spaces and plant numbers with the UV selections over seed lines and the RRS principals. No one appears to follow these routes and expand upon what was shared a long time ago now. That model has not been improved upon to date. If your going to breed indoors, that is a real useful starting point.

Those base concepts work and can be applied to improve what you started with. This is not preservation, but there is no point in preserving (many) modern hybrids anyway really. In fact there is no point at all. But working to make better what you have is fun and a great hobby that brings you much closer to your plants and you may well find you improve what you started with for your tastes.

Preservation and conservation breeding is a totally different matter. There is only a handful of breeders on earth with the space and facilities to run high plant numbers. Seeds need to be made in kilo's, there is not many doing that. Preserving a strain you got 50 seeds of left is not preservation, but saving a name. It is a total waste of time for a serious conservation focused breeder. Might make you a 'face' on various web forums if its your bag, but your not saving much if anything at all. But you could look to stabilise a phenotype from a plant population that people would love to grow. Useful and all you can realistically hope for.

Real preservation of genetics can be done, it takes organised collection of seeds from large populations where all possible plants are included in the seed lot. These need to be stored for the future correctly. This will preserve the genetics for 40 years if need be, without making a single assecion. In 40 years, who knows it might be legal to have your own field and there might only be the option of growing your own medicine.

From my experience so far, you cant see anything in 10's of seeds, absolutely nothing, zilch, nadda, fuck all, 100's are a starting point but not 100! 1,000's much better and you can start to instantly see diversity in seed plant populations. But how many commercial breeders do you know with 10,000 seeds even of a line they 'create'? most appear to run out of seeds within days of launching a new product after a few hundred seeds. Point is most commercial 'breeders' are growers first, growing high quality Sensi there not breeding at all.

To change any of this for the better needs a few things to happen, first we need people like you to tell the truth and share the benefit of your experiences. This is vital as it will help to educate the seed buying public into making better decisions based on other things than hype and this distorted view that the new thing is the greatest thing. You made a good point elsewhere saying that 'they don't value correctly what they are buying' The marketing engine of the seed business just needs to keep feeding this, its stupid, dangerous and the root of most of the problem (genetics erosion) It is possible it is causing more damage to the plant species than the combined agencies involved in the WOD.

It is a massive missed opportunity too, as all these closet breeding events and selections (read Dutch seed biz) have left us with a washed out bunch of genes. We have great opportunity to make huge strides forward in Hybrid development i feel, but not like we are now.

We need to start all over again..

Peace, hhf

 

[beancounter]

Ok HHF, what do you suggest I call what I'm doing? Do I have to qualify 'preservation'? In the technical term am I not preserving it? I wish there were 10000 beans left to work, but then there would be no need for me to do anything..

Should I just take some of the last beans around (besides a pack here and there), of these 5 IBLs and grow em all and smoke em? thro up my hands and forget about it cause there's only 5 packs of each left and not kilos?

And if I do breed with them what do you suggest I do? RRS principals are interesting, but I haven't seen any results? It looks great on paper, and I know Vic is very knowledgable.. But I'd love to see some lines i't sbeen proven with..


Also, I have countless pms daily asking/hoping I was making more with the stock, people wanting them as soon as there done without testing, way more than I could possibly afford to send out on my own dime/time..

Is that a reason enough alone to make it? because you can sell it? no, not in my opinion.. I was going to use these to do a 'preservation' run anyways, before i even thought about talking to bub about re-releasing them. Because I wanted to make sure there was more left.. at the cost of a few genes? sure, but something would be left, and certainly enough will be left that it would be worth it..



I've seen countless closet breeders/hacks do successful F2s with less than a pack of beans.. I can think of countless growers who have made Deep Chunk beans with a pack or less, that have gone out to many growers, and the results look as good as any DC I've seen from Tom.. HTC's DC is an excellent representation of Tom's line aswell.. I know Bub used much more than 50, but I doubt it was 1000s.. it still is well respected, and people who like afghans are always impressed.. sure, it lacks yeild, vigor, but it's still worth growing, and people are clamoring for it.. and it's still an excellent breeding tool..


It just sounds pretty disheartening to think you need 100s or 1000s of seeds to get a decent representation of the original line.. And from what I've seen with hobby growers making 'F2's of IBLs the lines will turn out just like the original for the most part..

I'm growing 1989 Skunk#1 'F2's, and they're identical to the Sam Skunk#1s I grew out, to the letter.. I'm pretty sure mota didn't even use 100s to do them..

It just seems confusing to hear this now, as many people have done good things with 50 seeds or less..

What do you suggest I do HHF? jus give up now? lol not that i will.. but it sounds like you think i'm just wasting my time and the results will be crap..

 

[beancounter]

And I don't really consider DC, PAKI, Nepal or Sunshine modern hybrids unworthy of preserving.. and IMHO, any good IBL is worth preserving, if not just for the closet breeders to have some fun with.

 

[Guest]

What do you suggest I do HHF? jus give up now? lol not that i will.. but it sounds like you think i'm just wasting my time and the results will be crap..

Hi Bro,

No that's not what im suggesting at all. Sorry if it feels that way. But consider im in exactly the same position in many regards with lines i have, Hazes, Old Skunks, Nl's and Landraces galore. Exactly the same situation.

Im talking technically and trying to explore what i should do as much as anything, hope you can understand this. I have many seed lots that are the last of their type, some down to less than 10 seeds in the world we can find.

So im interested in the technical side of preservation and im not trying to knock those saving the last of any line. I suppose that's what i would call it too, saving a line. Not true preservation of one. I am exploring what i should do with these lines, how to work with them and allocate best use of my personal efforts in regards to conservation.

I've seen countless closet breeders/hacks do successful F2s with less than a pack of beans.. I can think of countless growers who have made Deep Chunk beans with a pack or less, that have gone out to many growers, and the results look as good as any DC I've seen from Tom.. HTC's DC is an excellent representation of Tom's line aswell.. I know Bub used much more than 50, but I doubt it was 1000s.. it still is well respected, and people who like afghans are always impressed.. sure, it lacks yeild, vigor, but it's still worth growing, and people are clamoring for it.. and it's still an excellent breeding tool..

I know this is true and many people are happy with that. I am really not addressing you with my post amigo, sorry if it feels that way. As i say this is something dear to my heart and something i would like to explore as a topic. Nothing personal. As soon as examples are given it gets personal.

Im talking more from the perspective of the old Heirlooms and Landraces especially. I know that great plants from seed can be grown from highly selected derivatives off and feel that this is a worthy goal and great thing for the grower. But it also conflicts with what is good for the plant species and what could be called preservation of it.

I was going to use these to do a 'preservation' run anyways, before i even thought about talking to bub about re-releasing them. Because I wanted to make sure there was more left.. at the cost of a few genes? sure, but something would be left, and certainly enough will be left that it would be worth it..

I personally think this is a great thing bro, im not going there about individual lines. Im talking generally. You should save what is worthy as best you can.

It just sounds pretty disheartening to think you need 100s or 1000s of seeds to get a decent representation of the original line

Well in my mind, any seed line that was developed field scale, farmed lines from landraces especially need to be preserved in serious numbers. It may be disheartening to see the figures, but this is the reality. You need i think 2000 plants to guarantee passing over the whole diversity of a line. That's not possible and why im saying we need to go to source to recollect genes for safe storage en masse, as this is preservation of genes.

For the public market, selection within these lines, bxing, F1's, individual plant crosses, whatever it does not matter if we have backed up the genes in storage before working them. This is safe and responsible.

all the best, hhf

 

[Guest]

A thought about professional vs homegrown breeding. If you love it, do it, the only one who really has to take you seriously is you. It's like playing music, not everyone who plays is a professional, most people play an instrument for their own personal enjoyment. True many lack the technical expertice or even the talent to play professionally but that doesn't stop them from enjoying what they love and some amatuers actually are amazing musicians. No matter what happens it's a learning experience doing something you love. Do it if you love it.

 

[XyZ]

well said dude ...it was not rude

 

[pipeline]

Thanks for the discussion guys. Very good points being brought up. I think these projects will be well worthy of being released on the market, but HHF's right about preserving the diversity of the species.

Cannabis populations may be going through some bottle necks, but the majority of genes are likely getting through.....we can only hope! Hope for the day where we can grow out 50,000 seedlings to select from without fearing for our life.

 

[Playaction]

May I suggest Robert Connell Clarke's book... MJ Botany. There is a very detailed chapter on breeding. He writes on reversing the sex of a plant and other details of breeding.

 

[OG bub]

there is NO one recipe for every meal...........