Seedlings are sprouting in coco - what now? First grow!

[gaiusmarius]

yeah interesting stuff with the light rhythms. mum lines just means different strains of mother plants, lol. probably clone onlys.

i think when it comes to popping seeds your hours of day and night don't matter till the seedling actually pops it's head out of the medium. at which point, you want to veg it, but not stress it, hence 18/6 . but there are threads arguing that you get more females by putting the newly popped seedings under 12/12 for a week before going to normal veg. i don't know if there is any truth to this. but i will say, that to me it seems much more easy to influence yield by making sure you veg just the right amount of time. no matter which veg rhythm you are using as long as it's not less then 18/6. still an interesting theory, just like the thing with more females with 12/12 for seedling, lol. who knows eh? i've read people swearing on this system saying they are getting 80 to 90% females from normal seeds.

 

[Guest]

OK, now I need a little help, again. lol

One of the white widow seedlings seems to have slowed to a crawl and its fan leaves (is that what you call the first set?????) have stayed at the same size for a couple of days. The leaves sort of have a little brown tinge to the edges of the tips and, while they aren't dried up, they do look a little less soft if your catching my drift.

1) Could it be nute burn?? GM I know on your page you've said that this strain is nute shy. Since day two, I've given them 1/4tsp/qt of rhyzotonic and A+B. GM, unless I'm mistaken you said that was OK to do, but I also got the impression that you, yourself would only maybe give seedlings a couple of doses of rhyzotonic at 1/4 strength and go back to pH'd tap water. I do need to say that the first feeding with these nutes, and I am using a mister to water, I made the mistake of misting over the entire plant, getting it wet. I immediately corrected my method and on the rest of them held the nozzle just under the leaves of each and made sure the water got only on the coco. They all stayed under the light so maybe that was too much for the plant to take. May have burned it that way. My inclination is to flush all 5 of the seedlings, spray water all over the stalled one to wash it off, and use the tap water only for the next week or so. They are only about a week old and I want to keep them in the seedling tray for at least another week (longer for this one if it takes longer to get it looking healthy). They have all started to put out their second set of leaves but this one's second set has stayed as sort of buttons for a couple of days.

2) Could it be a watering problem?? I've been watering every two days and in these chopped off solo cups that is letting them get very light. The plants haven't shown any signs of being dry, like wilting, so I think that's about right. I've been watering to the point that the water has been coming out the vent holes in the bottoms of the cups and from what I've read, that's what I'm supposed to be doing.

3) Could it be a lighting, temp, humidity problem?? Light is a 200w CFL and is about 7" from the tops of the plants. My remote temp/humidity sensor has been resting on a chopped solo cup right along side them under the light so I can keep a close eye on it. Temps have been at about 75-80F the whole time. I've got a fairly large fan set on low blowing across the tray, adjusted so that it doesn't whip the seedlings. They do wiggle around every once in a while but I think that's probably good for stem development, right? Humidity has been at about 40-50%.

Light, water, nutes, temp, and humidity. Bout covers it I think. Help would be greatly appreciated. THANKS in advance to any who pitch in.

Here's a couple of pics. The one of the subject plant isn't too clear cause I can't get close enough to really show what's going on. I'll take one of it next to one of the others so maybe a comparison will help.

Overall leaf is affected but the leaf tips really show the problem

Center plant



Second from left



Taken last night

 

[gaiusmarius]

OK, now I need a little help, again. lol

One of the white widow seedlings seems to have slowed to a crawl and its fan leaves (is that what you call the first set?????) have stayed at the same size for a couple of days. The leaves sort of have a little brown tinge to the edges of the tips and, while they aren't dried up, they do look a little less soft if your catching my drift.

1) Could it be nute burn?? GM I know on your page you've said that this strain is nute shy. Since day two, I've given them 1/4tsp/qt of rhyzotonic and A+B. GM, unless I'm mistaken you said that was OK to do, but I also got the impression that you, yourself would only maybe give seedlings a couple of doses of rhyzotonic at 1/4 strength and go back to pH'd tap water. I do need to say that the first feeding with these nutes, and I am using a mister to water, I made the mistake of misting over the entire plant, getting it wet. I immediately corrected my method and on the rest of them held the nozzle just under the leaves of each and made sure the water got only on the coco. They all stayed under the light so maybe that was too much for the plant to take. May have burned it that way. My inclination is to flush all 5 of the seedlings, spray water all over the stalled one to wash it off, and use the tap water only for the next week or so. They are only about a week old and I want to keep them in the seedling tray for at least another week (longer for this one if it takes longer to get it looking healthy). They have all started to put out their second set of leaves but this one's second set has stayed as sort of buttons for a couple of days.

this is a classic mistake. you should never spray plants with the lights on, as the water pearls it's like a magnifying lens and the light gets concentrated and burns the leaves. turn the lights off for misting and wait till they are dry before turning the lights on again.

the rhizotonic is ok to use at half strength. and the A+B is not really needed yet. i wouldn't give them water with a higher ec than say 0.7 you don't want to starve the seedling either. anyway, don't worry they will come through it. just stay calm and patient and no more spraying with the lights on. in fact they are seedlings not clones you don't need to spray them yet, lol.

2) Could it be a watering problem?? I've been watering every two days and in these chopped off solo cups that is letting them get very light. The plants haven't shown any signs of being dry, like wilting, so I think that's about right. I've been watering to the point that the water has been coming out the vent holes in the bottoms of the cups and from what I've read, that's what I'm supposed to be doing.

yes this is right, just remember that a seedling or young clone will establish its self fastest with not too much water. the water till run off every day, is only really meant to be started once the plants has established a good root system. so until it becomes a plant, don't water unless you need to.

3) Could it be a lighting, temp, humidity problem?? Light is a 200w CFL and is about 7" from the tops of the plants. My remote temp/humidity sensor has been resting on a chopped solo cup right along side them under the light so I can keep a close eye on it. Temps have been at about 75-80F the whole time. I've got a fairly large fan set on low blowing across the tray, adjusted so that it doesn't whip the seedlings. They do wiggle around every once in a while but I think that's probably good for stem development, right? Humidity has been at about 40-50%.

Light, water, nutes, temp, and humidity. Bout covers it I think. Help would be greatly appreciated. THANKS in advance to any who pitch in.

Here's a couple of pics. The one of the subject plant isn't too clear cause I can't get close enough to really show what's going on. I'll take one of it next to one of the others so maybe a comparison will help.

Overall leaf is affected but the leaf tips really show the problem

Center plant

the reason for the burns is clearly as stated above, spraying with lights. as far as the stems, don't stress them yet, they are too young for any direct air current, this can also cause the leaf edges to dry in a young plant. these things will be good later, but for now it's a matter of patience and not much else. your lighting and climate are good. give them time and before you know it things will really begin to happen.

 

[Guest]

this is a classic mistake. you should never spray plants with the lights on, as the water pearls it's like a magnifying lens and the light gets concentrated and burns the leaves. turn the lights off for misting and wait till they are dry before turning the lights on again.

the rhizotonic is ok to use at half strength. and the A+B is not really needed yet. i wouldn't give them water with a higher ec than say 0.7 you don't want to starve the seedling either. anyway, don't worry they will come through it. just stay calm and patient and no more spraying with the lights on. in fact they are seedlings not clones you don't need to spray them yet,

Thanks, GM. I didn't intend to spray them, lol. It was my first watering and I got careless. As I said, I knew my mistake as soon as it happened and made sure the nozzle was under the leaves on the next ones. Made a bad mistake worse by not waiting for the one to dry before it was under the light again. The reason I'm using a sprayer is to put the water onto the coco without flooding it. I read in another post that plants in coco don't appreciate the gurgle effect that the flood of water produces. I would like to know if there's a better way to hand water. I know you grow on slabs and don't have to hand water but I'm sure you did way back when you started growing.

Thanks, man

 

[SouthernSmoker]

Nice looking grow you have here
easy on the nutes for a plant that young let them get roots into the coco before you feed them any real food
Personaly; i wait till the first true leaves are in and the second have started growth then hit them with maxi crop seaweed for there first feeding . This has done me very well in the past with seed germing and sprout raising .

Hand watering is an art you have to learn by a feel of the pot the longer you do it the better you can dial it in . You need to learn what is to light and what is too heavy to water . Change in enviroment will also speed up or slow down intake so whatch out for salt build up

when they get established more you can give them a good watering and feel how heavy the pots are when soaked but wait to do this till they are on second to thrid node so as not to overwater to litttle of a plant

Then wait till they dry out see how many days it takes and count from the day you watered heavy
You will see over time that they will dry out quicker and quicker until they reach a steady growspurt and they will level out
once you know how many days it takes then you can fine tune it by letting them get alittle less dry or a little more dry and find ther sweet spot for watering you will know this when the plants are relaxed for about 10 min after the watering and then they are standing straight up It is a beautiful thing to see
Just paly with you watering and flushing skills by hand and you will be able to dial into any system or style of grow you want .
remember its all in the roots

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the compliment and the advice SouthernSmoker. Need all the encouragement I can get, lol. I'm watering every other day and by the time I do water, the little pots feel and look dry as a bone. Just trying to do what's right for them and learning as I go. I wanted to do a bag seed grow before I germed the good stuff but couldn't get any of the bag seeds to sprout. They were a pale green color so I think they were just immature.

Thanks again, and feel free to let me know anytime you see me doing something wrong. I'm a big boy, I can take it, hehe.

 

[NCbuds]

Hey I would transplant them pretty soon...I had my plants in pots that size and roots were comming out like crazy....one of them hermied on me b/c I think I damaged its roots. I was watering every other day too, now I'm watering about every 3-4 days.

 

[gaiusmarius]

no it's too early for a transplant. believe me. they are much too delicate at this point to transplant them. they are only just out of the ground.

those pots are plenty big enough for the moment. people always want to love their seedlings to death, lol.

 

[Guest]

Thanks NC for offering the help, but I think I'm going to wait till the end of the week to transplant. These seedlings were put into the pots last Sunday night (22nd). I might even wait to transplant till the first part of next week. The cups I put them in are semi-transparent and I can see the root system developing on the bottom and poking at the sides about half way up. Hell, one of them is even recovering from a watering mistake I made. I watered it again with straight tap water that had been left out to get rid of the chlorine and pH'd to 6.5 and it looks like it's bouncing back well.

GM, thanks for stepping in, dude. I probably won't do anything without running it by you first to make sure I'm not going to F it up, hehe. How's that for insecurity?

BTW, how long can I keep the 1/4 strength mixture of Rhyzotonic and A+B around before it becomes unstable enough to be unusable? The reason I ask is because I've heard many in the forums say it's dangerous for the plant's health to mix nutes too far in advance. I mixed it several days ago and it's hard to make a small batch of it so I mixed a gallon's worth. I only put 4mL of each nute in the whole gallon.

 

[gaiusmarius]

A+B as well as rhizotonic and cannazym are all made to work in a automated setup with tanks that have up to 10 days worth of water in them. so as long as you don't go over the top and prepare for weeks ahead it will not be a problem. just remember to recheck the ph as it tends to raise in standing nutrient solution.

you want to transplant it when the plant has made a root ball out of the coco in the cups. at this point the roots would not keep the medium together and pieces might fall off taring bits of your new roots with them. once the roots have fully used the coco, then it's easy to transplant as the roots and coco come out in one firm piece which you can easily plant in a bigger pot.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, GM. You da man.

 

[Guest]

Gotta leave in a few minutes, but when I get back I intend to update the thread on how the "babies are doing." I think they're coming along well. I found some gnats hovering around the cups when I checked them just now so I know I've probably got larvae crawling around in my coco. GM I remember you posting in another thread about what you used to take care of the larvae but I didn't save the information and sure would appreciate it if you could enlighten me. I've got a strip I bought from a hydro shop that you hang and it's supposed to take care of gnats but I don't know if it will take care of the larvae or not. Guess if it takes care of the adults quickly enough, in a few days all the larvae would have made it to being adults and would have been killed. No more adults - no more larvae. But I'm not even sure it's safe to hang the damn thing. The package says not to hang it where humans congregate for extended periods of time and seeing as how, I'm here in my office most of the time, I don't want to keel over dead from gnat poison, hehehe.

Your expertise would definitely be appreciated, dude.

Thanks

 

[gaiusmarius]

Hi mojo, it sounds to me like you have got yourself a no pest strip. a bit over kill, but it will do the job. basically it's a very powerful poison and the best way to use it, if at all, is for short periods. 4 days should kill everything, lol. but like it says if you spend time sharing the same air then it's not a good idea. i never actually use them, but have heard of people using them with a lot of success.

but gnats are easy to kill in vegging plants. all you do is allow the coco to dry out more then ever before, wait to water till the plant actually hangs it's leaves. and the gnat larva will be dead as well as the gnats, as they can't survive in dry medium, while the plants will bounce right back. the other thing is gnatrol added to the watering solution, or more ecco friendly, use predator nematodes. but you probably found this info already.

peace

 

[Guest]

gaius, here are some pics of the seedlings. Dry enough for ya, hehe. I'm sure they're not but I'm not sure I have the guts to let em droop, lol. The one on the far right in the picture that has all 5 plants in it is the one that I burned by letting the mist water with nutes in it get on the leaves. I'll load that pic first. Those leaves that burned didn't want to get much larger but, once it recovered and started growing again, it looks like the next set of leaves is coming on strong.

When folks talk about the "real leaves" showing up, which ones are they talking about? Dude I'm asking because I've felt of em and I think they're all real, not a silk leaf in the bunch, near as I can tell, lol. I'm not embarrassed to ask stupid questions. I'm also showing you the glorified pest strip you mentioned. It'll be the one that doesn't look like a plant, hehe. Not really sure I want to live in the same room with that thing! I might start growing a leg out of the middle of my back or something.

BTW, my wife just came in to say goodnight, looked over at the plants and asked me "When are you going to water those poor little plants, I hate to see them suffering like that." Now that's a good woman! I told her it was your fault, said "gaius is making me do it", hehe. Think I'll water em, cause dude, if she's not happy, I'm not happy. And one thing I've learned is if a woman isn't happy long enough, I won't be happy and I'll only have half my shit! Think I'm down to about 1/8 now, hehehe.

The one that survived the great "mojo watering fuckup of '07" is on the far right


Another shot cause one is never enough, hehe


Here's a pic of the best grower of them all, and I'm sure it'll be male - just the way my shit goes, hehe


And now the infamous "hanging Roach Motel" aka pest strip on steroids ----- brand name "Prozap"


Let me know if I need to adjust the plan. Probably going to let them go another six or seven days (they're on day 8 right now since sprouting) and look at transplanting them into their new homes. I'm going to put them in three gallon pots and stick them under my 400W HPS/MH with the MH bulb in. After they veg a few weeks to a total of 6 or 8 weeks, I'll spread em out in the closet and kick on the 600W too. Then I'll probably veg to a total of about 6-8 weeks, change the bulbs to HPS and flip em into 12/12. Got em on 18/6 like you suggested and when I go to veg I think I'd like to go to 20/4 like the schedule I posted from I don't know where. Worth a try unless you know it'll be a mistake. You're a pro with White Widow (and a lot of others now that I think about it, hehe)and that's what three of these are, the other two are Aurora Indica. Is a two month veg too long? RH is, jeeze just looked and it's 36%! Probably need to invest in a humidifier. Think I'd like the rh at about 60-70% during vegging according to what I've read around here. Probably do most of the flowering at 50% and ease my way down to 40-30% during the very last week or two of flowering.

Sure would like to, if I get a male, pollinate a couple of select flowers so I can get some seed. I'd clone but I don't have a way yet to have plants in veg while others are flowering.

Later and thanks
mojo

 

[Guest]

Hey gm, wanted to let you know I just watered em and they're happier now. After they caught their breath, the big one in the back, the one I showed you, evidently was elected spokesperson for the group cause it actually asked me not to listen to you any more about the watering thing. No shit! Stood my ground though.

Seriously though man, the gnats are just laughing at me at this point. I was sure the coco was dry enough that nothing could live in it, except apparently my "made of steel" plants. A gnat flew out of the coco as I was watering and I swear I heard a laugh as he flew by. Called me a "gutless POS, grower wanna be" best I could make it out.

Think I'll try the gnatrol or even better, the nematodes since I'm so spineless when it comes to standing up to my plants - oh yeah, and the gnats.

Later

 

[gaiusmarius]

hahahaha, i love reading your posts mojo you are a most entertaining fellow in your writing style. ok let me see.....real leaves...lol...not real, in that sense are the first set of baby leaves, nor the second set of single fingered leaves. when the first 3 fingered leaf is open at the end of it's stem, like your 1 fingered leaves are now. those are the first real leaves imo. and that's when i start to use ec 0.8 with my rhizotonic.

i fully understand you not wishing to upset you other half about leaving the poor little things to die of thirst. as i say, it's a rough way, but if you catch it just right the plants don't suffer. never the less the gnatrol or some other product in liquid form, based on the Bacteria Thurengis israelis, which is a natural bacteria that lives in soil, this stuff kills the gnat larva braking the cycle and with 2 or 3 applications does a real good job. combine the treatment with a nematode application and you should stop the gnats in their tracks. mind you that no pest strip, should take care of matters in a day or two if it is comparable to the original no-pest strip.

i sincerely hope you don't have some super resilient ultra gnats from some neighboring grow, lol. although i have to say, the gnats will not spoil your grow, even if they do infest your space, so as long as you fight them, they will not effect your grow. another good method is covering your coco with a layer of perlit. but to be honest if i was you i would just let those plants get a bit bigger and stronger before i really start the battle with the gnats.

they are looking very good by the way, you seem to have a green thumb, their color is perfect in the second 2 pics, the first one looks slightly light green, but it's probably the light. keep doing what you are doing.

good growings

 

[Guest]

hahahaha, i love reading your posts mojo you are a most entertaining fellow in your writing style. ok let me see.....real leaves...lol...not real, in that sense are the first set of baby leaves, nor the second set of single fingered leaves. when the first 3 fingered leaf is open at the end of it's stem, like your 1 fingered leaves are now. those are the first real leaves imo. and that's when i start to use ec 0.8 with my rhizotonic.

i fully understand you not wishing to upset you other half about leaving the poor little things to die of thirst. as i say, it's a rough way, but if you catch it just right the plants don't suffer. never the less the gnatrol or some other product in liquid form, based on the Bacteria Thurengis israelis, which is a natural bacteria that lives in soil, this stuff kills the gnat larva braking the cycle and with 2 or 3 applications does a real good job. combine the treatment with a nematode application and you should stop the gnats in their tracks. mind you that no pest strip, should take care of matters in a day or two if it is comparable to the original no-pest strip.

i sincerely hope you don't have some super resilient ultra gnats from some neighboring grow, lol. although i have to say, the gnats will not spoil your grow, even if they do infest your space, so as long as you fight them, they will not effect your grow. another good method is covering your coco with a layer of perlit. but to be honest if i was you i would just let those plants get a bit bigger and stronger before i really start the battle with the gnats.

they are looking very good by the way, you seem to have a green thumb, their color is perfect in the second 2 pics, the first one looks slightly light green, but it's probably the light. keep doing what you are doing.

good growings

OK gm, the three fingered leaves are in, dude. I've been using rhizotonic at the rate of 1mL per liter, which should be about 1/4 strength. I don't have an ec meter so I can't tell ya what the ec value of the runoff is. I need to increase the rhizotonic now? Man, I thought I was supposed to start using the pk 13/14 at this point at 1mL per liter.

I noticed the yellowing of those leaves last night and wanted to ask you about it. It's only the Aurora Indica plants that are slightly yellow and they're both in the same shape. Here's another picture of the Aurora Indica plant taken today and both of the AI's have a little yellowing of the leaves. What do you think is happening. The pH of the water with rhizotonic in it is between 6.0 and 6.5 and I'm watering every other day. You've seen how dry I'm letting them get between waterings so I'm thinking maybe the AI's need more Nitro than the WW's. Your thoughts, please.

The slightly yellow AI


Picture of the spokesperson for the group, looking good I think



Picture of the whole group. 2 AI's are on this end in front, closest to the camera.



Thanks for helping, man. Haven't heard another peep from the talkative one, hehe.

Edited 5 minutes later:

BTW, I have some BT in the garage that I use on my vegetable garden every year. It's in powder form I think but I should be able to make it into a solution. Think that would work for the larvae. I haven't actually seen any larvae, but if I've got adult gnats, knowing how promiscuous they are, I probably am going to get a larvae infestation don't ya think?

 

[gaiusmarius]

yes i think it's time for the auroras to get some nutes. add 1ml per litter of both a+b, the rhizotonic is actually supposed to be used at full strength, but with seedlings it's not needed. they have a natural tendency to make great roots with or without rhizotonic, which is after all not cheep. you could be right, indeed it looks like the ww requires less then the auroras at this point. you don't need to measure the run off, it shouldn't be too high else the plants would show it. using the BT from your garden supplies sounds like a good idea, if it's applicable on the medium, then i'd do it the way they recommend. you really don't have to worry about having the odd gnat here and there. it's when they are crawling everywhere on the medium and when the larva are squirming around as soon as you scrape open the surface of the coco, that you have to take action. maybe not quite that late, lol. but you get the idea. you ever heard of that type of earth you put on the medium which kills all insects if they crawl over it? dichotomous earth or something? if you have that in your supplies you might try it too once the plants are nice and strong. just a thought. i normally don't have to fight the gnats in the first run with new coco. even if a few show up, they don't get the over hand till the second or third run, by which time i do start treating against them.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for getting back to me so fast, gm. Should I only feed 13/14 to the AI's or can I go ahead and give it to the WW's too? They didn't seem to mind it when I was giving it to them at about 3 days old. Just don't want to burn them, ya know. But at 1ml per qt(liter in your case, hehe) do you really think I would OD the plants? Seems like the WW's should be getting some Nitro too, but what the hell do I know, gnats gave me trouble! lol.

Btw, the kids have plenty of water right now, so I won't be doing anything to them until tomorrow night.

 

[Guest]

how many days has it been since ur seeds popped above ground

just curious