RO Membrane wearing out fast

[theother]

http://www.thefilterguys.biz/chloramine_filters.htm

If you do have Chloramine here is the place to start. They offer test kits. Mid way down on this page they have carbon designed for Chloramine.

Some just plain wrong info in here. It boggles the mind that people offer advice on topics they don't know anything about. Carbon will barely even touch Chloramines, and you absolutely do not need a water softener to elongate your resin or maintain a TDS of 000 on the output.
OP: noticed you said you have your unit plumbed to a float valve. Are you making small batches at a time in a res, flushing your unit and then taking it off line, or is it continually cycling via the float valve/ pressure from your tap? If it's the latter, then there's your problem.
The tds coming out of the membrane at short intervals causes tds that is extremely high. As the bobber float only calls for small amounts of water, it causes what is called TDS creep. This exhausts the DI resin up to five times faster.
My municipal tap contains like 3X the average in Chloramine content(Rant: Chloramine is highly overhyped as being detrimental to plant health, and I personally feed straight out of the tap in dirt. In my DWC system and aquariums however, I'm all RODI)
My method:And trust me: I've been put through the ringer on dialing in the most cost efficient methods to overcome my Tap's impossibly high Chloramines( Not because I believe they effect the root system, but only because Chloramines rapidly exhaust DI resin, which is expensive)
I run a 4 stage Maxcap 180GPD RODI Spectrapure unit, I make 100 gallons at a time, flush, then take the unit offline with the turn of a valve. For fillup/ ATO, which feed both my aquarium sumps and topoff Res, I employ a Spectrapure UPLC-II ATO which also uses a digital air sensor that can be adjusted between 1/10" and 4" with the touch of a button. It also comes with a back up high level float switch and the same three roller peristaltic pump as their Liter Meter III. It's bulletproof. The pump can also be adjusted in 10% increments as another level of failsafe, so you can adjust the fill rate.
My ATO res is like 40 feet away in my basement. The ULPC has no issue pulling the water that distance and can actually pump up to about 45 psi vertical if needed.
That's the ultimate fix dude. Albeit, expensive upfront. My shit sparkles out of that water line though, I rarely have to buy DI, and I run a ton of volume through my lines. Good luck

He doesn't need to make di, I get what your saying about your resin, but the di is because of your reef tanks. No one in the hydro industry cares much about di

 

[Pulsar]

http://www.thefilterguys.biz/chloramine_filters.htm

If you do have Chloramine here is the place to start. They offer test kits. Mid way down on this page they have carbon designed for Chloramine.


He doesn't need to make di, I get what your saying about your resin, but the di is because of your reef tanks. No one in the hydro industry cares much about di

I kinda disagree dude. While, yes, DI isn't critical , it's a surefire way to reach the upper echelon of purity, which is my personal goal for DWC top off and Res changes.. And regardless, if he has his unit plumbed to continuously fill, he's still burning through his membranes/ media faster than if he was making a batch, flushing the unit, and then using something else to top off the Res.
As opposed to plumbing the unit straight to a float for top off. There's just a better way of doing it. I've found the UPLC-2 to be the best way.
I guess a step down from there would be a Tunze Osmolator, but in either case, using one of those instead of hard plumbing the RO unit to a float regardless of whether you're running it through DI, is far superior in terms of media/membrane life..

 

[theother]

I kinda disagree dude. While, yes, DI isn't critical , it's a surefire way to reach the upper echelon of purity, which is my personal goal for DWC top off and Res changes.. And regardless, if he has his unit plumbed to continuously fill, he's still burning through his membranes/ media faster than if he was making a batch, flushing the unit, and then using something else to top off the Res.
As opposed to plumbing the unit straight to a float for top off. There's just a better way of doing it. I've found the UPLC-2 to be the best way.
I guess a step down from there would be a Tunze Osmolator, but in either case, using one of those instead of hard plumbing the RO unit to a float regardless of whether you're running it through DI, is far superior in terms of media/membrane life..

I get where your coming from, I love water chemistry, and the reef hobby really supports that. I can tell you that absolutely no one is using di water on a large scale in this industry to the best of my knowledge. The standard thing is gonna be sediment kdf and one or two membranes. The best tweak for these guys is gonna be maybe a booster pump and ideally one of the autobackflush units from someone like filter guys. It does sound like he has Chloramiine in his water, the best way for him to deal with that is a carbon that will be able to handle it. I honestly like the idea of di, and this guy is making small batches of water, however di is only gonna complicate it for him and let's be honest, why make di and then fill it full of salts. The remaining impurities removed by di pale in comparison to the impurities in the nutes you are adding and I promise you that is absolutely the case.

To the op, is there any chance you put the water saver screw in the waste line (little blue plastic thing) if so take this out, it's probably part of your problem. Change the sediments religiously, and do the carbons more often than you think. Definitely consider either testing the water for Chloramine or just order or ask at the hydro store for a Chloramine carbon.

Something I am curious I don't see used more in this industry are uv sterilizers before ro's, that would make sense, especially for these guys on wells. I have seen gardens on wells where the sediments get straight knocked out by algae blooms and shit like that. Also seen snails be enough of a problem that a mechanical pre filter was necessary to save the sediments.

 

[queequeg152]

high carbonate content is the biggest issue with respect to poor RO performance down here in the south.

you absolutly do need a softner or some other means to prevent scale formation if you are giong to RO water like we have.

http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...seps/pdfs/noreg/609-00306.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

 

[theother]

high carbonate content is the biggest issue with respect to poor RO performance down here in the south.

you absolutly do need a softner or some other means to prevent scale formation if you are giong to RO water like we have.

http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...seps/pdfs/noreg/609-00306.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

Do you guys use sodium chloride or potassium chloride? Seems like it would be a damn near 1-1 exchange of whatever is softening the water to calcium. Is it easier for the sediment to pick out the sodium (or potassium) than it is the cal mag?

We got pretty bad water on a lot of the west coast, like .6 ec all cal mag, but I have never seen someone run a softener in front of a ro unit before.

Edit, just read the attached info. The idea of acid softening makes sense, prevents the buildup but still rejected. And I am starting to see the point of the salt based softening. Moor whatever reason (which I'm hoping you'll explain) the salt doesn't have the same buildup ability of the cal mag. Maybe the easiest thing would be to explain why cal mag scales and other stuff doesn't.

Also can you point me in the direction of an appropriate softener and recharge material? Does it require constant monitoring and adjustment or is it really just as simple as the salt is easily rejected?

Thanks for a new piece of info. Have dealt with softeners and ro's for a long time and I can promise you it NEVER crossed my mind to combine the two. The most elaborate thing I have seen someone do was a whole house sediment filter thing that was just a giant bed of media. Really can't remember how well that worked.

 

[MrAwder]

Okay lots of info being thrown around in here that I appreciate, but is also confusing me a bit. I have no idea what ATO or UPLC stand for. I think they are a step above what I'm looking for. I just want to get some <10ppm water so I can make sure my nute mix is right when I read it from my pen.

Now, I DO have the RO hooked up via float constantly on. I did not realize that would be a problem, but as you explained it it makes perfect sense. I usually use about 20 gallon out of the res every other night - 4 5gal buckets. Is 20 gallon per fill not enough to "clear" the high ppm water from the membrane? I guess I will have to change my routine... turn off water to filter, fill buckets, backflush and turn pressure back on, stop backflush and let fill, come back later and turn the filter water off again once res is refilled? At the point the float is basically just an overflow prevention and I am manually filling the RO res about twice a week.


On the softener issue, I know someone who runs a softener in front of RO and it works great. Membrane changes once a year, no problems. I installed the RO system for them so I was concerned about the softener adding salts before the filter removes them, but after reading determined it was actually beneficial... I think. Water & soil science are difficult for me to get a handle on.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I was happy with the water I was getting out of my filter when it was still below 10 ppm. It was giving me perfectly fine results with Jacks in coco. It really seems like just being more diligent with sediment and carbon changes (every 2-3 months) and not leaving the water on to the filter all the time will probably make a huge world of difference.

 

[theother]

Okay lots of info being thrown around in here that I appreciate, but is also confusing me a bit. I have no idea what ATO or UPLC stand for. I think they are a step above what I'm looking for. I just want to get some <10ppm water so I can make sure my nute mix is right when I read it from my pen.

Now, I DO have the RO hooked up via float constantly on. I did not realize that would be a problem, but as you explained it it makes perfect sense. I usually use about 20 gallon out of the res every other night - 4 5gal buckets. Is 20 gallon per fill not enough to "clear" the high ppm water from the membrane? I guess I will have to change my routine... turn off water to filter, fill buckets, backflush and turn pressure back on, stop backflush and let fill, come back later and turn the filter water off again once res is refilled? At the point the float is basically just an overflow prevention and I am manually filling the RO res about twice a week.


On the softener issue, I know someone who runs a softener in front of RO and it works great. Membrane changes once a year, no problems. I installed the RO system for them so I was concerned about the softener adding salts before the filter removes them, but after reading determined it was actually beneficial... I think. Water & soil science are difficult for me to get a handle on.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I was happy with the water I was getting out of my filter when it was still below 10 ppm. It was giving me perfectly fine results with Jacks in coco. It really seems like just being more diligent with sediment and carbon changes (every 2-3 months) and not leaving the water on to the filter all the time will probably make a huge world of difference.

Is there any chance that water saver screw is in the waste line?

If you do have Chloramine this is the kdf carbon that is available at hydro stores, probably cheaper to go outside the industry but this keeps it simple. http://www.hydrowholesale.com/hydro...nt-carbon-filter-for-removing-chloramine-4318

I have never had a problem with running to a float valve on the clean side. I have checked the waste water outlet many times and when the clean side is restricted it does not continue to pump out waste.

I'm certainly not saying I know it all in any way shape or form. MI have learned a lot from this thread already. I just wanted to make sure that things didn't get more complicated than they needed to be.

Fwiw I am now considering adding a softener in front of my ro if I don't end up getting a full year out of this membrane.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Mr awder, a lot of info in here. Id suggest just changing ur sediment twice as often or once a month. I bet that does it. U should be a able to keep ur water on and use ur ro float valve like normal.

Try the common sense easy shit first before u go installing water softeners or anything.

 

[Pulsar]

Mr awder, a lot of info in here. Id suggest just changing ur sediment twice as often or once a month. I bet that does it. U should be a able to keep ur water on and use ur ro float valve like normal.

Try the common sense easy shit first before u go installing water softeners or anything.

I must say, I'm not a big fan on the LOL acronym, but if I were, I would employ it here, as this truly did make me laugh. Out loud.
Yeah I'm willing to wager that'll solve the issue as well. Just change your cartridges twice as often or once a month dude. That'll crush the issue. Never mind the expense, or addressing the actual issue at hand and delving into water chemistry and optimal plumbing techniques.KISS. Just keep it simple. Just change 'er out once a month!

 

[habeeb]

ok lots of wrong info in here

no, you don't use the flush every time.. you use it every so often.. who would go to turn it on each and every time and turn it back off.. it's meant to pull off accumulated salts on the membrane time to time.. so people running sink faucet setups are expected to turn on the back flush every-time they get a drink of water, then turn it off... hahahaha, NO NO NO... once again NO . near every R/O is setup on a float valve, hence automating the process, not making it complicated ..

so what you need is this:

-1. 5 micron sediment
-2. 5 micron carbon
-3. 1 micron sediment
-4. 1 micron carbon
-5. membrane
-6. permeate pump


are you sure your flow restrictor and membrane match up to GPD?

I heard the cycling on and off can wear a membrane out faster, but you need to look into this, as I have no clue, I do know it's going to sketch your numbers if you looking at your clean water as it takes a minute or two to get down to "zero" PPM when the float valve opens the water to run through, if you didn't know that, so keep that in mind when your testing your water, that's not the real number if your sticking our PPM meter in the res, you would have to catch the clean water 2 minutes after to see the real PPM coming out.

look into again, as I've heard, a inline booster pump can increase life( that would technically be #1 in my list ) as it pushes high high pressure to the membrane, and the science I don't know, but check into his as well as I know many who run them even though there pressure is completely fine.. I think it works in the same fashion the permeate pump does only the permeate pump is on the other side of the membrane ( clean water ) not blocking / restricting flow on the membrane.. so it would make sense but check into it, as I haven't read on R?O in maybe 5 years..

I wouldn't give up R/O water though, as if your water is that junk, that is no good for plants at that level.. second it gives anyone a base line to know, as each person has different water.. just look at heads coco formula, it doesn't work for some why....... the water used.. he even uses well water which you cannot replicate unless you have a well with that same water............ baselines helps everyone

 

[theother]

ok lots of wrong info in here

no, you don't use the flush every time.. you use it every so often.. who would go to turn it on each and every time and turn it back off.. it's meant to pull off accumulated salts on the membrane time to time.. so people running sink faucet setups are expected to turn on the back flush every-time they get a drink of water, then turn it off... hahahaha, NO NO NO... once again NO . near every R/O is setup on a float valve, hence automating the process, not making it complicated ..

so what you need is this:

-1. 5 micron sediment
-2. 5 micron carbon
-3. 1 micron sediment
-4. 1 micron carbon
-5. membrane
-6. permeate pump


are you sure your flow restrictor and membrane match up to GPD?

I heard the cycling on and off can wear a membrane out faster, but you need to look into this, as I have no clue, I do know it's going to sketch your numbers if you looking at your clean water as it takes a minute or two to get down to "zero" PPM when the float valve opens the water to run through, if you didn't know that, so keep that in mind when your testing your water, that's not the real number if your sticking our PPM meter in the res, you would have to catch the clean water 2 minutes after to see the real PPM coming out.

look into again, as I've heard, a inline booster pump can increase life( that would technically be #1 in my list ) as it pushes high high pressure to the membrane, and the science I don't know, but check into his as well as I know many who run them even though there pressure is completely fine.. I think it works in the same fashion the permeate pump does only the permeate pump is on the other side of the membrane ( clean water ) not blocking / restricting flow on the membrane.. so it would make sense but check into it, as I haven't read on R?O in maybe 5 years..

I wouldn't give up R/O water though, as if your water is that junk, that is no good for plants at that level.. second it gives anyone a base line to know, as each person has different water.. just look at heads coco formula, it doesn't work for some why....... the water used.. he even uses well water which you cannot replicate unless you have a well with that same water............ baselines helps everyone

I agree on it being more trouble than benefit to flush every time, seems excessive. The booster pumps are legit if your water is coming in cold. Cold water ups the rejection rate a bit and when your making a lot of water that sucks. Another benefit to the boosters is you can get that cool little solenoid that automatically back flushes.

I have never heard of staggering the charcoal sediments like that though. I don't think I ever even noticed a micron rating on the charcoals. I kind of always figured they where just chemical filtration and not a particular pore size. I'm open to the idea though, next time I buy charcoal I'll see what pore size I'm getting.

 

[queequeg152]

Do you guys use sodium chloride or potassium chloride? Seems like it would be a damn near 1-1 exchange of whatever is softening the water to calcium. Is it easier for the sediment to pick out the sodium (or potassium) than it is the cal mag?

We got pretty bad water on a lot of the west coast, like .6 ec all cal mag, but I have never seen someone run a softener in front of a ro unit before.

Edit, just read the attached info. The idea of acid softening makes sense, prevents the buildup but still rejected. And I am starting to see the point of the salt based softening. Moor whatever reason (which I'm hoping you'll explain) the salt doesn't have the same buildup ability of the cal mag. Maybe the easiest thing would be to explain why cal mag scales and other stuff doesn't.

Also can you point me in the direction of an appropriate softener and recharge material? Does it require constant monitoring and adjustment or is it really just as simple as the salt is easily rejected?

Thanks for a new piece of info. Have dealt with softeners and ro's for a long time and I can promise you it NEVER crossed my mind to combine the two. The most elaborate thing I have seen someone do was a whole house sediment filter thing that was just a giant bed of media. Really can't remember how well that worked.

salts of sodium or potassium are infinatly more soluble than salts of calcium.

from what i understand acid injection will only work well in areas where the carbonate scaleing is marginal. if you have truly terrible carbonate levels like i do, you cannot fix this issue with acid injection, as the ph you would require would damage those TF membranes.

i cannot comment on what salt is used more, as the systems ive worked on all used DI resin. DI resins can be regenerated quite a few times before they are exhausted. he big plant i worked with used resin because it was not acceptable to discharge such briny water to a leach field over and over.

im not an RO expert, ive worked with a few RO plants that required some permitting through TCEQ and local municipalities, and thats it.

the equipment and mediums vary based on on the issue you have.
the big plant i worked with used twin filox tanks, and a single di resin tank, a pre dechlorinator, and a post rechlorinator(lul). this was a very shallow well with very high sulfates hydrogen sulfide and aluminum and something else txdot pissed on.

once you have a water quality test, i would suggest approaching one of the MANY companies that install whole hose equipment, and picking one of their brains.
if they are going to sell you something they usually will write up a decent recommendation based on on your unique needs. check their reccomendations with others... online or otherwise.

they also expect to service your unit... this is how many of these firms make the majority of their money. make it clear to them you will service the unit yourself, and get clear instructions on how to maintain the unite.

again though... i dont think RO is necessary in the vast majority of cases, but then again im hardcore KISS.

 

[theother]

salts of sodium or potassium are infinatly more soluble than salts of calcium.

from what i understand acid injection will only work well in areas where the carbonate scaleing is marginal. if you have truly terrible carbonate levels like i do, you cannot fix this issue with acid injection, as the ph you would require would damage those TF membranes.

i cannot comment on what salt is used more, as the systems ive worked on all used DI resin. DI resins can be regenerated quite a few times before they are exhausted. he big plant i worked with used resin because it was not acceptable to discharge such briny water to a leach field over and over.

im not an RO expert, ive worked with a few RO plants that required some permitting through TCEQ and local municipalities, and thats it.

the equipment and mediums vary based on on the issue you have.
the big plant i worked with used twin filox tanks, and a single di resin tank, a pre dechlorinator, and a post rechlorinator(lul). this was a very shallow well with very high sulfates hydrogen sulfide and aluminum and something else txdot pissed on.

once you have a water quality test, i would suggest approaching one of the MANY companies that install whole hose equipment, and picking one of their brains.
if they are going to sell you something they usually will write up a decent recommendation based on on your unique needs. check their reccomendations with others... online or otherwise.

they also expect to service your unit... this is how many of these firms make the majority of their money. make it clear to them you will service the unit yourself, and get clear instructions on how to maintain the unite.

again though... i dont think RO is necessary in the vast majority of cases, but then again im hardcore KISS.

They used di as a pre filter?

 

[queequeg152]

They used di as a pre filter?

no, as a softner.

its a strong anionic resin to sequester calcium.

when you regenerate them you flow brine up through the resin bed, and scrub off SOME not all of the calcium. you can do this a number of times before you need new resin.

i think you can aggressively recharge resin with an acid bath, but i do not know for sure.

all that happens automatically fwiw. they have timers and valves built into the head ontop of the units. its all pretty cool, but also why they cost so damned much.

 

[theother]

no, as a softner.

its a strong anionic resin to sequester calcium.

when you regenerate them you flow brine up through the resin bed, and scrub off SOME not all of the calcium. you can do this a number of times before you need new resin.

i think you can aggressively recharge resin with an acid bath, but i do not know for sure.

all that happens automatically fwiw. they have timers and valves built into the head ontop of the units. its all pretty cool, but also why they cost so damned much.

Interesting! My experience with di has always been small amounts of the color change resin as a final stage for reef tanks. With the drought in ca they are starting to do ro desal plants, would be curious about the tech they are using.

 

[Pulsar]

Quote: Habeeb : ok lots of wrong info in here

Indeed. Alot of it yours.

no, you don't use the flush every time.. you use it every so often.. who would go to turn it on each and every time and turn it back off.. it's meant to pull off accumulated salts on the membrane time to time..


Just to make sure we are on the same page: We are talking about flushing using a bypass valve on the treated side, Correct? Regular flush kits that come with a standard RO or RODI only flush the waste side of the membrane and are essentially worthless. They do not flush the treated side where TDS creep is an issue. If you employ a Micron 1 or smaller sediment and carbon block cartridge, there isnt even anything worth flushing on the waste side. If we are talking about a standard flush kit that usually comes standard with the unit, then it doesnt matter if you flush every now and then or every single time you make a batch of RO/ RODI. You are doing nothing to clear the line. This admittedly sounds confusing,but it isnt, and is common knowledge by those who are familiar with optimizing their units. What needs to be understood here is that, like with anything, sometimes you need to perform a Mod here and there to make your unit perform more efficiently. Flush kits are a joke. Always make sure you throw a bypass valve on the treated side, and Yes: flush with the bypass valve on the treated side real quick each time before making a batch!




so people running sink faucet setups are expected to turn on the back flush every-time they get a drink of water, then turn it off... hahahaha, NO NO NO... once again NO . near every R/O is setup on a float valve, hence automating the process, not making it complicated ..


This statement is laughably ridiculous. Im not here to take personal jabs, but this one statement seems to lend credence that you have absolutely zero idea what youre talking about.Period. Any readers out there: Attention: Do not listen to this shit!! This is utter nonsense!

Every R/O setup is plumbed to a float, which in turn, is "not making it complicated?"

Youve never heard of the phenomenon that is TDS creep and how continuously running short bursts through your unit will exhaust your media and membranes at an exponentially faster rate? Really? Tomorrows Monday. Call any respected RO company like Spectrapure, the FilterGuys, etc and ask them about plumbing your line directly to your unit and then to a float. Before you do, ensure that you have thick skin, because you will be laughed at. This is why in a previous post I recommended a UPLC-2 pump or similar. (Im not going to type all of the benefits again)
In short:the Ideal method to get the most out of your media/membranes: make a good sized batch of water in a dedicated res, throw in a cheap airstone to keep it fresh, and run something like a UPLC-2( or any ATO) which acts as the top off/ booster pump instead of plumbing your water line---->unit---->float.



I heard the cycling on and off can wear a membrane out faster, but you need to look into this, as I have no clue,

This directly contrasts what you stated above. Let the record show the first part of your post states "near every R/O is setup on a float valve, hence automating the process, not making it complicated"


So....bear with me...You have " heard the cycling on and off can wear a membrane out faster, but..., " near every R/O is setup on a float valve, hence automating the process, not making it complicated?"

?!!
Well, by all means. Oh Do elaborate!


I do know it's going to sketch your numbers if you looking at your clean water as it takes a minute or two to get down to "zero" PPM when the float valve opens the water to run through, if you didn't know that, so keep that in mind when your testing your water, that's not the real number if your sticking our PPM meter in the res, you would have to catch the clean water 2 minutes after to see the real PPM coming out.


Common knowledge. Im sure the OP knows that the numbers will be high upon startup.

look into again, as I've heard, a inline booster pump can increase life( that would technically be #1 in my list ) as it pushes high high pressure to the membrane, and the science I don't know, but check into his as well as I know many who run them even though there pressure is completely fine.. I think it works in the same fashion the permeate pump does only the permeate pump is on the other side of the membrane ( clean water ) not blocking / restricting flow on the membrane.. so it would make sense but check into it, as I haven't read on R?O in maybe 5 years..


Took the words right out of my mouth. This is evident.

However, all of this tech was prevalent 5 years ago.


OP and other parties looking to extend their media/membrane life:
I understand that the Hydro community has yet to catch up with more informed and learned communities such as Aquaria. However there are some extremely simple rules to adhere to in order to achieve optimal RO & RODI performance. A few of which are:

DO NOT listen to anyone who advises you to plumb a water line to your unit and then to a float. The TDS creep will exhaust your cartridges roughly 5X faster than if you had a dedicated Res. This is a Newb mistake and Im surprised that my fellow Cannabis growers seem to not be savvy to this fact. Dont take it from me. Do the research!

Fill up a Res with your RO unit, take it offline, then utilize a pump such as this one http://spectrapure.com/Auto-Top-Off-System-UPLC-II-Liquid-Level-Controller

or this one

http://www.marinedepot.com/Tunze_Os...f_Plug_In_Units-Tunze-TZ4111-FIDPETPU-vi.html

You will hardly ever have to change your media/membranes with these methods because you are avoiding TDS creep and relying on Diaphragm/ATO pumps to refill your Res, instead of blasting unnecessary, High TDS bursts repeatedly through your media simply to top off the evap!


Keep the media wet and ideally, store your cartridges in the fridge while not in use.This prolongs their life. Again, Do the research!

 

[theother]

Quote: Habeeb : ok lots of wrong info in here

Indeed. Alot of it yours.

no, you don't use the flush every time.. you use it every so often.. who would go to turn it on each and every time and turn it back off.. it's meant to pull off accumulated salts on the membrane time to time..


Just to make sure we are on the same page: We are talking about flushing using a bypass valve on the treated side, Correct? Regular flush kits that come with a standard RO or RODI only flush the waste side of the membrane and are essentially worthless. They do not flush the treated side where TDS creep is an issue. If you employ a Micron 1 or smaller sediment and carbon block cartridge, there isnt even anything worth flushing on the waste side. If we are talking about a standard flush kit that usually comes standard with the unit, then it doesnt matter if you flush every now and then or every single time you make a batch of RO/ RODI. You are doing nothing to clear the line. This admittedly sounds confusing,but it isnt, and is common knowledge by those who are familiar with optimizing their units. What needs to be understood here is that, like with anything, sometimes you need to perform a Mod here and there to make your unit perform more efficiently. Flush kits are a joke. Always make sure you throw a bypass valve on the treated side, and Yes: flush with the bypass valve on the treated side real quick each time before making a batch!




so people running sink faucet setups are expected to turn on the back flush every-time they get a drink of water, then turn it off... hahahaha, NO NO NO... once again NO . near every R/O is setup on a float valve, hence automating the process, not making it complicated ..


This statement is laughably ridiculous. Im not here to take personal jabs, but this one statement seems to lend credence that you have absolutely zero idea what youre talking about.Period. Any readers out there: Attention: Do not listen to this shit!! This is utter nonsense!

Every R/O setup is plumbed to a float, which in turn, is "not making it complicated?"

Youve never heard of the phenomenon that is TDS creep and how continuously running short bursts through your unit will exhaust your media and membranes at an exponentially faster rate? Really? Tomorrows Monday. Call any respected RO company like Spectrapure, the FilterGuys, etc and ask them about plumbing your line directly to your unit and then to a float. Before you do, ensure that you have thick skin, because you will be laughed at. This is why in a previous post I recommended a UPLC-2 pump or similar. (Im not going to type all of the benefits again)
In short:the Ideal method to get the most out of your media/membranes: make a good sized batch of water in a dedicated res, throw in a cheap airstone to keep it fresh, and run something like a UPLC-2( or any ATO) which acts as the top off/ booster pump instead of plumbing your water line---->unit---->float.



I heard the cycling on and off can wear a membrane out faster, but you need to look into this, as I have no clue,

This directly contrasts what you stated above. Let the record show the first part of your post states "near every R/O is setup on a float valve, hence automating the process, not making it complicated"


So....bear with me...You have " heard the cycling on and off can wear a membrane out faster, but..., " near every R/O is setup on a float valve, hence automating the process, not making it complicated?"

?!!
Well, by all means. Oh Do elaborate!


I do know it's going to sketch your numbers if you looking at your clean water as it takes a minute or two to get down to "zero" PPM when the float valve opens the water to run through, if you didn't know that, so keep that in mind when your testing your water, that's not the real number if your sticking our PPM meter in the res, you would have to catch the clean water 2 minutes after to see the real PPM coming out.


Common knowledge. Im sure the OP knows that the numbers will be high upon startup.

look into again, as I've heard, a inline booster pump can increase life( that would technically be #1 in my list ) as it pushes high high pressure to the membrane, and the science I don't know, but check into his as well as I know many who run them even though there pressure is completely fine.. I think it works in the same fashion the permeate pump does only the permeate pump is on the other side of the membrane ( clean water ) not blocking / restricting flow on the membrane.. so it would make sense but check into it, as I haven't read on R?O in maybe 5 years..


Took the words right out of my mouth. This is evident.

However, all of this tech was prevalent 5 years ago.


OP and other parties looking to extend their media/membrane life:
I understand that the Hydro community has yet to catch up with more informed and learned communities such as Aquaria. However there are some extremely simple rules to adhere to in order to achieve optimal RO & RODI performance. A few of which are:

DO NOT listen to anyone who advises you to plumb a water line to your unit and then to a float. The TDS creep will exhaust your cartridges roughly 5X faster than if you had a dedicated Res. This is a Newb mistake and Im surprised that my fellow Cannabis growers seem to not be savvy to this fact. Dont take it from me. Do the research!

Fill up a Res with your RO unit, take it offline, then utilize a pump such as this one http://spectrapure.com/Auto-Top-Off-System-UPLC-II-Liquid-Level-Controller

or this one

http://www.marinedepot.com/Tunze_Os...f_Plug_In_Units-Tunze-TZ4111-FIDPETPU-vi.html

You will hardly ever have to change your media/membranes with these methods because you are avoiding TDS creep and relying on Diaphragm/ATO pumps to refill your Res, instead of blasting unnecessary, High TDS bursts repeatedly through your media simply to top off the evap!


Keep the media wet and ideally, store your cartridges in the fridge while not in use.This prolongs their life. Again, Do the research!

Fascinating stuff, just read this article http://www.dfwmas.org/rodi-tds-creep-3251.html explaining tds creep. Gonna keep looking I to it and definitely read more but I think I see why it doesn't really apply the way a lot of us are doing it. At least this article is talking about feeding into an ATO with a float valve, that means that the float valve is actuated many many times as the water evaps off the tank. The tds creep occurs when th water sits in contact with the membrane and more than normal osmote through and is then in that initial flush of water deposited into the sump.

The reason this doesn't apply to hydro is because most people plumed to a float aren't going into an ATO, they are plugged into some static storage container (usually hundreds of gallons) Not positive about the op, but I'll check, but I'm sure his is set up static. If you did have an ATO set up for your dwc I'm sure it would suffer the tds creep syndrome. I'm sure that first small shot of water going in May have a bit of the creep but it's gonna be lost in the masses of water made after that. I do think some of the booster pumps and ackflush stuff from aquariums would be amazing additions to a lot of gardens.

Love that the aquaria water chemistry is making it over to hydro! Problem is it's just not all gonna apply perfectly. The scale that water is made for hydro is fucking huge. Just a normal smallish 6 lamp multi feed coco garden is gonna take more water than any fish tank in history. The change schedule for the filters in that article looked cool, but 600 gallons of finished water would mean just absolutely constant changes.

I apologize if the op was using an ATO, I should have checked back before posting this but was out the door.

 

[Gry]

interesting subject.

 

[Pulsar]

QUOTE=theother;6715295]Fascinating stuff, just read this article http://www.dfwmas.org/rodi-tds-creep-3251.html explaining tds creep. Gonna keep looking I to it and definitely read more but I think I see why it doesn't really apply the way a lot of us are doing it.

Theres literally zero difference. Youre making water to either use to change a res, or to plumb to a Res containing an ATO to auto-fill your Res due to Evap and to replace what the Plants themselves are consuming, or to replace Evap from an aquarium sump. No matter what the application, you're simply replacing water level, whether it's from Evap, hungry plants, or a combination of the two. .

The reason this doesn't apply to hydro is because most people plumed to a float aren't going into an ATO, they are plugged into some static storage container (usually hundreds of gallons)

Im not sure what you mean here dude. Not being hostile here but this statement doesnt make any sense. "Arent going into an ATO? An ATO stands for AutoTopOff. Its just the device that sits in your designated ATO Res of fresh made water, that pumps said water into your main system, whether that system is an aquarium or a grow Res.Perhaps thats what you meant. It absolutely does apply to Hydro. Again, there is no difference here between the two worlds of Aquaria and Hydro. Your goal is to get clean water into a designated Res to fill up your main Res, ideally while prolonging your media and membranes, which is what this thread is all about. Not burning through your Media/ Membranes& Money. Im just trying to highlight the way we do it on that side of water world, and not to come off as pretentious, but the Aquaria side is lightyears ahead of Hydro on this topic.Water quality is the foundation of that entire hobby. I dont think you realize how large in volume we( the fanatics) are going on the Aquaria side..Its the other way around. Most hydro systems are relatively low volume compared to Aquaria. Also, comparitively, within the world of Hydro you see fewer total volume systems like DWC as opposed to flood and drain systems where the majority of the surface area is taken up by media like rock, clay pellets etc. There are some DWC methods that are similar in volume to a good sized saltwater setup however. Attached is a photo of the aquariums I have in my home. One is a 225, one is a 200, and I also have a 50 Gallon. That doesnt even include the sumps for the biofiltration, which are also like 80 gallons each. I also run three 70 gallon tubs for DWC along with a 40 gallon Mother Res. Point being: I run a shitload of volume through my RODI unit dude, and rarely ever have to replace my media or membranes. This is possible because of the way it's plumbed, and I also refrigerate all my cartridges while not in use. This further prolongs their life

Not positive about the op, but I'll check, but I'm sure his is set up static. If you did have an ATO set up for your dwc I'm sure it would suffer the tds creep syndrome.

Not sure what you mean here. ATO is just the pump. What about the components would suffer from an elevated TDS?

I'm sure that first small shot of water going in May have a bit of the creep but it's gonna be lost in the masses of water made after that. I do think some of the booster pumps and ackflush stuff from aquariums would be amazing additions to a lot of gardens.

Love that the aquaria water chemistry is making it over to hydro! Problem is it's just not all gonna apply perfectly. The scale that water is made for hydro is fucking huge. Just a normal smallish 6 lamp multi feed coco garden is gonna take more water than any fish tank in history[/B].

No dude. Hydro volumes, vast majority of the time, dont even slightly compare with volumes in the fishtank world.


Pictured and described, is the best way ive found to produce the absolute purest water, while getting the most out of your media and membranes. Again, this is RODI, and some will make the claim that you dont need DI in Hydro, which is actually true. However, its extremely easy and relatively inexpensive to add DI to an existing RO unit, and your end result will be as pure of a water as you are going to get in the home setting.
Stage 1: Sediment
Stage 2: Carbon Block
*The reason the regular carbon block comes before the Chloramine Removal Filter in Stage 3 is that you want to protect the Chloramine Filter, since they will always be the more expensive filter
Stage 3: Chloramine Filter
Stage 4: DI (Spectrapures MC DI cartridge)
Stage 5: DI (Spectrapures SilicaBuster DI cartridge)

After your water runs through this(or a similar plumbed system from the FilterGuys, BulkReef etc) then it dumps into a designated Res, where a pump like SPure's UPLC-2 (or any ATO) performs the job of replinishing your main system, whether that system is an aquarium, or a mother Res for DWC. Youre just filling up a Res. Its interchangeable between the two worlds!

OP: prob a little more involved for what you were expecting, but if you ever want truly pure water, and to save your media and membrane life, follow this advice. Actually fk it: dont take my word for it: go do the research, call around to the industry experts like Spectrapure, FilterGuys, BulkReef, etc. But Please, OH Please!!!!!!..... Dont listen to anybody telling you to plumb your mainline to your unit, and then to a float!
Good luck

 

[theother]

QUOTE=theother;6715295]Fascinating stuff, just read this article http://www.dfwmas.org/rodi-tds-creep-3251.html explaining tds creep. Gonna keep looking I to it and definitely read more but I think I see why it doesn't really apply the way a lot of us are doing it.

Theres literally zero difference. Youre making water to either use to change a res, or to plumb to a Res containing an ATO to auto-fill your Res due to Evap and to replace what the Plants themselves are consuming, or to replace Evap from an aquarium sump. No matter what the application, you're simply replacing water level, whether it's from Evap, hungry plants, or a combination of the two. .

The reason this doesn't apply to hydro is because most people plumed to a float aren't going into an ATO, they are plugged into some static storage container (usually hundreds of gallons)

Im not sure what you mean here dude. Not being hostile here but this statement doesnt make any sense. "Arent going into an ATO? An ATO stands for AutoTopOff. Its just the device that sits in your designated ATO Res of fresh made water, that pumps said water into your main system, whether that system is an aquarium or a grow Res.Perhaps thats what you meant. It absolutely does apply to Hydro. Again, there is no difference here between the two worlds of Aquaria and Hydro. Your goal is to get clean water into a designated Res to fill up your main Res, ideally while prolonging your media and membranes, which is what this thread is all about. Not burning through your Media/ Membranes& Money. Im just trying to highlight the way we do it on that side of water world, and not to come off as pretentious, but the Aquaria side is lightyears ahead of Hydro on this topic.Water quality is the foundation of that entire hobby. I dont think you realize how large in volume we( the fanatics) are going on the Aquaria side..Its the other way around. Most hydro systems are relatively low volume compared to Aquaria. Also, comparitively, within the world of Hydro you see fewer total volume systems like DWC as opposed to flood and drain systems where the majority of the surface area is taken up by media like rock, clay pellets etc. There are some DWC methods that are similar in volume to a good sized saltwater setup however. Attached is a photo of the aquariums I have in my home. One is a 225, one is a 200, and I also have a 50 Gallon. That doesnt even include the sumps for the biofiltration, which are also like 80 gallons each. I also run three 70 gallon tubs for DWC along with a 40 gallon Mother Res. Point being: I run a shitload of volume through my RODI unit dude, and rarely ever have to replace my media or membranes. This is possible because of the way it's plumbed, and I also refrigerate all my cartridges while not in use. This further prolongs their life

Not positive about the op, but I'll check, but I'm sure his is set up static. If you did have an ATO set up for your dwc I'm sure it would suffer the tds creep syndrome.

Not sure what you mean here. ATO is just the pump. What about the components would suffer from an elevated TDS?

I'm sure that first small shot of water going in May have a bit of the creep but it's gonna be lost in the masses of water made after that. I do think some of the booster pumps and ackflush stuff from aquariums would be amazing additions to a lot of gardens.

Love that the aquaria water chemistry is making it over to hydro! Problem is it's just not all gonna apply perfectly. The scale that water is made for hydro is fucking huge. Just a normal smallish 6 lamp multi feed coco garden is gonna take more water than any fish tank in history[/B].

No dude. Hydro volumes, vast majority of the time, dont even slightly compare with volumes in the fishtank world.


Pictured and described, is the best way ive found to produce the absolute purest water, while getting the most out of your media and membranes. Again, this is RODI, and some will make the claim that you dont need DI in Hydro, which is actually true. However, its extremely easy and relatively inexpensive to add DI to an existing RO unit, and your end result will be as pure of a water as you are going to get in the home setting.
Stage 1: Sediment
Stage 2: Carbon Block
*The reason the regular carbon block comes before the Chloramine Removal Filter in Stage 3 is that you want to protect the Chloramine Filter, since they will always be the more expensive filter
Stage 3: Chloramine Filter
Stage 4: DI (Spectrapures MC DI cartridge)
Stage 5: DI (Spectrapures SilicaBuster DI cartridge)

After your water runs through this(or a similar plumbed system from the FilterGuys, BulkReef etc) then it dumps into a designated Res, where a pump like SPure's UPLC-2 (or any ATO) performs the job of replinishing your main system, whether that system is an aquarium, or a mother Res for DWC. Youre just filling up a Res. Its interchangeable between the two worlds!

OP: prob a little more involved for what you were expecting, but if you ever want truly pure water, and to save your media and membrane life, follow this advice. Actually fk it: dont take my word for it: go do the research, call around to the industry experts like Spectrapure, FilterGuys, BulkReef, etc. But Please, OH Please!!!!!!..... Dont listen to anybody telling you to plumb your mainline to your unit, and then to a float!
Good luck

Didn't have a chance to read it all but I will clarify' I don't think I was clear in the last post. Tds creep is happening because an ro is cycling on and off very regularly. The lamps make the water evap the ATO float goes down and the ro starts making water. Happens often and makes small amounts of water. The tds creep is pumped into the do resin depleting it faster.

Ours is different because we pull out 200 gallons and make 200 gallons. No on and off cycling in most hydro systems I have seen. If you did have a float set up to top off a hydro system as the plants drink it you would get tds creep. We of course will get tds creep while the system is off, and that first 1/2 gallon will have a higher tds than the rest, but it will be diluted by the next 200 gallons of water.

That's all I'm saying, the tds creep is caused by small volumes of water frequently coming out of the membrane. Hydro (at least in the sense we are all talking about) doesn't work this way.

If your saying the tds creep that is occurring while the float valve is off is ruining the membrane than I apologize. So far everything I have been able to find about it refers to it depleting the di resin faster because it's getting that first 1/2 gallon of less than perfect ro pushed though it and that is the concern.

We don't use di as a last stage filter, and even if we did it would be only that first 1/2 gallon.