Reversed Backcrossing:)

[Chimera]

Selfing the clone seems a very logical first step in my opinion regardless of the direction from there.

I agree, with one basic change.

Preservation first, selection second THEN selfing selected individuals for genotyping purposes. Then, as Colina essentially said, once you know where you stand you are in a better position to decide where you want to go, and what path to follow.

-Chimera

 

[GMT]

Hi Colina, I'm glad to have the opportunity to explain my reasoning on that. No matter what the trait that is being chased, in the outcross, the gene or genes responsible will be present in the F1 generation, even if they arent expressed. By moving to F2s, you will get 50% that posses a combination of genes, 25% that contain the double genes of the outcross parent and 25% that posses the original clones genes. By choosing from the 25% that contain the original clone's genes, to form the parents of the new F3 gen, you get a large selection of offspring that contain the original clones genes to choose from, by backcrossing the one most suitable to be the parent, you would get a large degree of genes that were fairly similar in content to the original clone. While also maintaining the male and female genes. What's more, you don't need to start playing with chemicals, anyone can do it. The skill then comes in the selection process. That was my reasoning. That's the way I began working with the trait that I wished to see in the population that I desired.

 

[cork144]

gmt through that method do you feel it would be irelivant what the outcross strain was? or would selection of the outcross still be important because in the 25% that contain most of the original clone genes, the outcross will still lend some traits?

 

[GMT]

Well you wouldn't get a 100% genetic match unless you were very lucky and got a series of improbabilities. So the outcross parent would still be generating a certain amount of genetic material, which is why I would then backcross before starting the IL process. So ideally you would want to select an individual from a breed that posessed either characteristics that were easily identifiable so as to make eliminating them easier, or something that posessed beneficial characteristics.
Though bear in mind my experience is significantly less than either Chimera's or Colina's. All I'm doing is breeding trifoliar weed plants.

 

[englishrick]

all right,,,im gona keep my mouth shut more often,,,il work in quietly,,,,,,i hade grate fun on this thread,,,i hope other people did too,,,,an im sure it got people thinkin

i dont know enough yet to say anything "yet".....so lets leave it at that,,,,,,its my head and my problem,,,,sorry guys,,,i didnt think its was all nonsense.....thanks for reading

 

[cork144]

not all nonsence, i learnt abit along the way,

 

[Weedninja]

If anyone wants some resources for breeding I would highly recommend the old BCGA archives here: http://www.cannabase.com/cl/bcga/bcg.htm
There are some real cannabis legends that posted there and there are links for several MJ related texts, including Marijuana Botany.

Enjoy

 

[grimweeder]

I'd like to respond to this thread, but:

A) reading it hurts my brain... likely because...

B) there is so much nonsense on these pages that I don't even know here to begin.


It's not that I don't like you Rick, I don't know you... but I do think you post alot of nonsense about topics you don't understand, which leads to more confusion as people read your words and might not realize that you really don't understand what you are talking about.

I've been trying to clarify many of these cannabis breeding topics on the internet for over 10 years.... and really these threads make me feel like all that work, all those explanations was for naught!

Have you read any breeding texts? Marijuana Botany? Allard's Principles of Plant
Breeding?

I wrote a small, simple chapter for Jorge Cervantes' Medical Bible that I think might clarify some of your basic assumptions re: breeding cannabis. I would recommend you search that out, read it a couple of times and then get back on your path to enlightenment. Maybe armed with the basics you could then approach Allard's work, or many other excellent writtend works on plant breeding.

Good luck in your search,
-Chimera

you hit the nail on the head there mate.

 

[englishrick]

im not hear to prove myself,,,,

you guys are the majority,,,,so il listen to you,,,,and happily too

but like i said beffore.....

we HEAR are all Mendelian`s,,,an we live by our own laws,,,

free thinking is the way forward,,,,,every indervidual can make your own judgements,,,i just provide a reason to think

have fun guys,,,,,,il keep shtum from now on

for what its worth,,,,,i love this thread,,,,

 

[Kant C Shyt]

I like the idea u have about the cheese project Englishrick. I now am a cheese head full blown well we will wait til the blown part lol. Let us (definately let me) know if u need any help testing some S1s or S2s of the cheese. Currently have 10 bbcheese going along wit a few nice others and the cheese definately is outshining anything I have going so far but u r running the UK cheese and therefore we definately aite running in the same class. I still hope to acquire the UK cheese some day cuz its now in the states just waiting til it finds its way east so I can use it in a couple of project instead of having to use the bb version. Don't get me wrong I'm pleased so far (they r still in veg) but I want the raw real deal cheese. Take care and good luck wit ur project. 1

 

[englishrick]

all my Cheese S1`s and Blues x Cheese will be going to seedbay as fribiees for them to givaway,,,,,all you will have to do is buy some seeds from seedbay and request my seeds as your fribiees,,,,,,,il be supprized if anyone wants the no Chimera has made his views clear

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi rik its been a very interesting read.

fwiw, a question was asked (somewhere else) about using feminised (selfed) plants for further breeding. charles xavier posted his response which i will try and reproduce here.

--

Greetings andytoker

"i know feminised seeds arent very popular amongst many growers, and i've heard that crossing a feminised plant with a male to make seeds is a bad idea....missing alleles etc....andytoker"
​

cx - "Popularity is relative; it is also community specific. I am aware of a tremendous number of cultivators who deal exclusively with 'femmed' seeds. In fact, the majority (slim, but nonetheless) of cultivators employ 'feminized' seed stock.

There is nothing inherently genetically inferior with 'feminized' seed stock."

"but then ive also read that its ok as long as you've run the feminised plant a few times and its not hermi-prone....andytoker"
​

cx "This should be the standard, 'feminized' or no. Every potential P1 should be thoroughly tested and outcrossed before breeding begins in earnest. The desired outcome of the breeding program will dictate the suitability of the specimens."

"so i would like to hear from either

1. people who have used feminised strains for breeding and what the results were....andytoker"
​

cx"I have; the results have been consistent, comparable or commensurate to 'regular' seed stock in some cases. In most instances, the results were superior."

"2. people with a knowledge of genetics who can say categorically what the genetic results might be and if it's asking for trouble....andytoker"
​

cx - "The results and whether they are satisfactory, are wholly dependent on proper selection and realistic goals."

"i dont really want this to be a general discussion about the merits of fem seeds because thats been had before....andytoker"
​

cx - "Agreed. It should be stated, that everyone is of course, entitled to their opinions. Some opinions are indeed rooted in fact, but this should not sway anyone's preference.

It should, however, also be stated, that dispensing misinformation is a separate issue.

Don't like using 'feminized seed' all you want, but also don't present specious rationalizations for your choices."

"my own situation is that i have a great Blueberry plant that was grown from a fem seed. ive ran it a few times now and no hermis. now with a strain that is prone to hermis like bb is a very stable fem plant worth using for crossing???...andytoker"
​

cx "If you deem the specimen, "a keeper", then it is. If there is something in your estimation, worth preserving, then by all means, preserve it."

"just to be clear im taking about crossing a plant grown from feminised seed with a regular male to make seeds....andytoker"
​

cx - "Just to be clear: There is absolutely nothing wrong with the concept you are putting forth."

 

[VerdantGreen]

i think many people are against this kind of thing because it 'feels' wrong somehow to them, but it would seem that genetically there nothing to say that it is definitely a bad idea. (this is from research, not experience)
its good to be cautious about messing with a gene pool, but let me give a comparison-

who here helps the seed shell off an emerging seedling if it is struggling to push it off?
if you do, surely you are messing with gene-pools in a big way. natural selection would dictate that those plants, that couldnt shrug off the seed hull, would not survive. but who here would put best genetic practice over a $10-$20 seed?

rik - your energy and enthusiasm is a credit to you, and i've learned a lot from this thread.
V.

 

[Kant C Shyt]

Thanks Englishrick, I know I'm not the only 1 who wants to try these. Also I've never ordered from SBay I always go thru the SBoo cuz I use prepaid cc, but is there any difference in shipping or is SBay more complicated. I mean i'm fine with shopping on the Boo but the Bay intimidates me with all that high dollar bidding stuff plus I can't compete with some of these guys its like they're professional seed buyers lol and some got deep pockets n I'm a working man.

So some1 plz give me some advice about SBay. I really would like some S1s and blues crossed cuz I got BB's now I'm shoot for the UK. Take care and thanks in advance 1

 

[englishrick]

am i still makin no sence?

We propose a model to analyze a quantitative trait under frequency-dependent disruptive selection. Selection on the trait is a combination of stabilizing selection and intraspecific competition, where competition is maximal between individuals with equal phenotypes. In addition, there is a density-dependent component induced by population regulation. The trait is determined additively by a number of biallelic loci, which can have different effects on the trait value. In contrast to most previous models, we assume that the allelic effects at the loci can evolve due to epistatic interactions with the genetic background. Using a modifier approach, we derive analytical results under the assumption of weak selection and constant population size, and we investigate the full model by numerical simulations. We find that frequency-dependent disruptive selection favors the evolution of a highly asymmetric genetic architecture, where most of the genetic variation is concentrated on a small number of loci. We show that the evolution of genetic architecture can be understood in terms of the ecological niches created by competition. The phenotypic distribution of a population with an adapted genetic architecture closely matches this niche structure. Thus, evolution of the genetic architecture seems to be a plausible way for populations to adapt to regimes of frequency-dependent disruptive selection. As such, it should be seen as a potential evolutionary pathway to discrete polymorphisms and as a potential alternative to other evolutionary responses, such as the evolution of sexual dimorphism or assortative mating.

 

[englishrick]

Chimera,,,am i still an idiot?

 

[GMT]

Hi Rick,
that quote is talking about the way in which populations evolve during competition in fields, for instance wheat fields. What it is saying is that as one new pheno type that is better at competing for resources comes into being, and breeds, then there will be more who compete better for resources, and so that advantage is reduced due to its competitors also becoming more competitive and so while the genes are passed on, the results within that population are reduced. Therefore the advantage is countered. However the genes now contain new instruction sets. So by looking at the field, the results will stay fairly constant yet there will have been a discrete evolution created by the need to compete for food. So while the environment has not changed, the appearance of the wheat has not changed, their genome has altered.

So that passage isn't really relevant to what you are proposing.

I wouldn't let it put you off your task though, which by now you should be doing and showing us the results of. Get the experiment under way, its the only way to move the thread forward really.

 

[englishrick]

i figured out how to mix STS yesterday,,,,iv just got to get the bits this week...

like i said,,,,im gona stay quiet from now,,,il do my work ,put my head down

 

[GMT]

Hi Rick. From what i've read, the CS sounds far easier, a kettle some tap water, a steam collection device (for making distilled water), a battery, a silver coin, a couple of wires and hey presto. I don't think you need to stay quiet. Yeah you got burned when ya got what you wanted, but we all get burned now and then. If ya want to stay warm ya got to play with fire Its all a learning process, and we all need to learn. These boards are the quick way to do that. Not only that, but it all gives those who will read them in the future usefull info. So even by putting forward ideas that get shot down, that shooting down helps someone in the future who comes up with the same idea to avoid wasting time. It all helps to move the collective knowledge further along.

 

[englishrick]