Reverse engineering all those bottled nutrient blends

[glow]

Formulas being posted soon

Formulas being posted soon

Yep the first mistake you'd be making is using labels to reverse engineer from - often what is in the bottle is very different from what is listed on the label. So first rule is to spend about $40 per solution getting them lab analyzed so you have an accurate starting point.

I'll be posting formulas shortly at www.manicbotanix.com --- just posted today how to formulate Cal Mag or Cal Mag and Cl http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydropo...olution-using-drysolid-base-fertilizers-.html


Will though post a bunch more in the coming weeks as to making concentrates such as House and Garden and Canna coir formulas etc.

Nice work Mister Blah but knowing what is in a bunch of formulas you have posted many of them are a way off from the originals.

For example, your Advanced Nutrient formulas are miles away from how Advanced Nutrients formulate re pH Perfect technology and you have missed completely that their microelements consist of standard chelates along with amino proteinates... Canna not only uses FE EDTA but Fe DTPA etc. And man that GH 3 part formula looks as if you couldn't hit targets so just jacked it....

You also need to post a lot more information about formulation chemistry principles because you have listed g/L of e.g. calcium nitrate --- however, what purity of calcium nitrate and what percentages of Ca and NO3 N? Basically in the wrong hands --- i.e. most people on this forum who have zero formulation knowledge could make a mess of things very easily and even create a nutrient from your formulas that would harm their plants from the info you have provided because so much of the puzzle is missing. What if they don't understand that most calcium nitrate fertilizers contain both NO3 N and NH4 N and formulate with one of these Ca NO3 N ferts, which is highly likely unless you explain the situation? Yeah they have just added way to much NH4 N. So did you formulate using CAN or calcium nitrate tetrahydrate etc?

And you have a lot of work to do re putting up educational material re formulation theory. If you don't do all of this your site is potentially dangerous in its current form. Check out http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydropo...olution-using-drysolid-base-fertilizers-.html and compare what I have written to what you have explained to growers - its like chalk and cheese. People need grounding in the theory otherwise formulas as g/L of this and that are plain dangerous shit for the novice who has no idea about formulating nutrients and additives.

First and foremost you fail to note that all base nutrient fertilizers have different elemental percentages and that even on a batch to batch basis these elemental percentages can change. You need to list %w/v and ppm targets next to a list of elements in solution. Of course I am likely speaking an alien language to most here which is really what is really wrong with the picture. More worryingly I'm not sure whether you quite grasp the chemistry. Its dead easy chemistry but for someone without a chem education its rocket science. You need to teach them the chemistry which isn't too hard but takes a hell of a lot of time in writing and programming calculators to help them along.

Just quickly though when I post the House and Garden coir formula I will be showing the whole process involved in reverse engineering step by step using software I will be giving away. Without this software it is easy for non chem heads to get things wrong and drop numbers (particularly so when you're stoned_. Other than this elemental targets will be listed with elements/ion species. I'm actually thinking that the software you talk about that isn't hydrobuddy is possibly the software I programmed several years ago (Manic Botanix Hydroware) because there are only a few programs on the market and mine I believe is the only program which formulates concentrates as per what is available through hydro stores because I programmed it for this purpose, All the other programs as far as I know and this applies to hydro buddy aren't culturally appropriate. Why you being so cagey about it man ---? Either way it will be freely available to all soon so all good.

Also adding this material now on making bennie additives http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-nutrient-formulation/bennie-additive-formulation.html --- still to complete it re adding a trichoderma brew and bottling and storing info but again you can see the extent to which I explain things as clearly as possible so that the reader gets the science that underpins why they are doing things.

And yes do not reverse engineer from labels... This said keep up the good work and keep going but you definitely need to lab analyze things and also have a better idea of what is in the originals. I think also you perhaps need to learn more about formulating yourself as it is not as straight forward as you are presenting it which is way too dumbed down. So much so the info re formulas in the wrong hands could wipe out a crop or cost someone massively in yields.

 

[glow]

Well, the point of this is to make the transition from bottled nutrient blends to making your own a lot easier.

It's like cooking. You just follow a recipe.

Yep no this is very wrong. Chemistry is nothing like cooking and it is way more complex than following a recipe which is why I expect your formulas look way out.

 

[glow]

Help me make the original roots excelurator...thanks Mr.B

I'll post a formula very soon on www.manicbotanix.com

 

[Dog Star]

I dont get totally this goal with nutes as i know there are thousend possible combos
with organic amendments and organic type of growing...

why to take bottled formulas of less quality products when you can take organic
amendments and feed your soil more properly...

Its like debunking of bad praktice and less quality products than ones you can create alone... what is a final goal of this spending of mental energy??

 

[glow]

I dont get totally this goal with nutes as i know there are thousend possible combos
with organic amendments and organic type of growing...

why to take bottled formulas of less quality products when you can take organic
amendments and feed your soil more properly...

Its like debunking of bad praktice and less quality products than ones you can create alone... what is a final goal of this spending of mental energy??

Its all about yield my friend. In hydroponics you are luxury feeding... however, unless you are very good at organic growing it is nearly impossible to get any where near the same yields because you are feeding often in the low to at best sufficiency ranges... Yields have improved massively both in Ag and MJ growing because of modern technologies such as environmentally controlled green houses and hydroponics..

Here's something I wrote about hydro v. organics recently http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-grow-guide/hydroponics-v-organics.html --- feel free to attempt to debunk with science anything that is said.. So far the mung head brigade have remained very quiet (no abuse etc

 

[MisterBlah]

Yep the first mistake you'd be making is using labels to reverse engineer from - often what is in the bottle is very different from what is listed on the label. So first rule is to spend about $40 per solution getting them lab analyzed so you have an accurate starting point.

I'll be posting formulas shortly at www.manicbotanix.com --- just posted today how to formulate Cal Mag or Cal Mag and Cl http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydropo...olution-using-drysolid-base-fertilizers-.html


Will though post a bunch more in the coming weeks as to making concentrates such as House and Garden and Canna coir formulas etc.

Nice work Mister Blah but knowing what is in a bunch of formulas you have posted many of them are a way off from the originals.

For example, your Advanced Nutrient formulas are miles away from how Advanced Nutrients formulate re pH Perfect technology and you have missed completely that their microelements consist of standard chelates along with amino proteinates... Canna not only uses FE EDTA but Fe DTPA etc. And man that GH 3 part formula looks as if you couldn't hit targets so just jacked it....

You also need to post a lot more information about formulation chemistry principles because you have listed g/L of e.g. calcium nitrate --- however, what purity of calcium nitrate and what percentages of Ca and NO3 N? Basically in the wrong hands --- i.e. most people on this forum who have zero formulation knowledge could make a mess of things very easily and even create a nutrient from your formulas that would harm their plants from the info you have provided because so much of the puzzle is missing. What if they don't understand that most calcium nitrate fertilizers contain both NO3 N and NH4 N and formulate with one of these Ca NO3 N ferts, which is highly likely unless you explain the situation? Yeah they have just added way to much NH4 N. So did you formulate using CAN or calcium nitrate tetrahydrate etc?

And you have a lot of work to do re putting up educational material re formulation theory. If you don't do all of this your site is potentially dangerous in its current form. Check out http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydropo...olution-using-drysolid-base-fertilizers-.html and compare what I have written to what you have explained to growers - its like chalk and cheese. People need grounding in the theory otherwise formulas as g/L of this and that are plain dangerous shit for the novice who has no idea about formulating nutrients and additives.

First and foremost you fail to note that all base nutrient fertilizers have different elemental percentages and that even on a batch to batch basis these elemental percentages can change. You need to list %w/v and ppm targets next to a list of elements in solution. Of course I am likely speaking an alien language to most here which is really what is really wrong with the picture. More worryingly I'm not sure whether you quite grasp the chemistry. Its dead easy chemistry but for someone without a chem education its rocket science. You need to teach them the chemistry which isn't too hard but takes a hell of a lot of time in writing and programming calculators to help them along.

Just quickly though when I post the House and Garden coir formula I will be showing the whole process involved in reverse engineering step by step using software I will be giving away. Without this software it is easy for non chem heads to get things wrong and drop numbers (particularly so when you're stoned_. Other than this elemental targets will be listed with elements/ion species. I'm actually thinking that the software you talk about that isn't hydrobuddy is possibly the software I programmed several years ago (Manic Botanix Hydroware) because there are only a few programs on the market and mine I believe is the only program which formulates concentrates as per what is available through hydro stores because I programmed it for this purpose, All the other programs as far as I know and this applies to hydro buddy aren't culturally appropriate. Why you being so cagey about it man ---? Either way it will be freely available to all soon so all good.

Also adding this material now on making bennie additives http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-nutrient-formulation/bennie-additive-formulation.html --- still to complete it re adding a trichoderma brew and bottling and storing info but again you can see the extent to which I explain things as clearly as possible so that the reader gets the science that underpins why they are doing things.

And yes do not reverse engineer from labels... This said keep up the good work and keep going but you definitely need to lab analyze things and also have a better idea of what is in the originals. I think also you perhaps need to learn more about formulating yourself as it is not as straight forward as you are presenting it which is way too dumbed down. So much so the info re formulas in the wrong hands could wipe out a crop or cost someone massively in yields.

First off, I appreciate your comments. I really do.

But using all of this to advertise your own website is amusing to me.

Now, on to your concerns:

I'm well aware of the fact that what the guaranteed analysis says is not always exact and often times doesn't list the concentrations of everything. But I don't YET have $40 to shell out for hundreds of blends. So, I start with the guaranteed analysis and as the project progresses, I start to spend more money on lab analysis.

To say that something that is "not perfect but close" to be "way off" is ridiculous. We're growing plants here. We aren't worried if something is off by 2%. It really won't matter much. Having a formula that is 6% N versus 6.12% N will not show appreciable differences. Having a formula that is 3ppm Fe versus 3.06ppm Fe will not show appreciable differences.

Your concerns about the use of a CAN or CN tetrahydrate are reasonable. I have not yet had time to explain any of this. It is an ongoing project and it's not like this is my fulltime job. For the record, the CAN product that I've used in all of these are not too high in NH4-N. It's 14.4% NO3-N and 1.1% NH4-N. As is typical in most dry calcium nitrate products. This is not a calcium ammonium nitrate like CAN-17 or CAN-27. But I understand that I do need to accurately share this information and what each of these mean. On my todo list is a post on fertilizers and what you can actually buy vs what the chemical formula states. This will of course include information on purity.

Again, I understand I need more educational material.

First and foremost you fail to note that all base nutrient fertilizers have different elemental percentages

Do you seriously think I'm some clod who doesn't understand this? Just because I don't mention it doesn't mean I don't know it. You really have to get it out of your head that just because I haven't written something down yet that is means I don't know it. I started doing this 3 fucking weeks ago. I appreciate your suggestions, but there's a lot that you are saying that is trying to make the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing.

In regards to batch to batch disparity, why is this important to you? Serious question. I know it happens. But if there is a disparity between two batches of what is advertised as the same fertilizer, you what happens? Nothing. An consumer does not adjust the amount they add to create their fertigation water. It's not like a normal consumer actually knows when a batch was mixed slightly differently. And it's not like their plants can tell either. The only time it would be an issue is if it's so bad that it would warrant a change in the labeling of the product.

Next you mention the need to put up W%/V and you are correct. I do. It's on the to do list. I didn't do it initially so I have to go back through everything I've worked on, regather that information, and then reformat it for the website. I agree that it needs to be done.

I do not use your software. I mention hydrobuddy because you can actually use hydrobuddy to do this. If you insist, I use Smart-Fertilizer's software because I also use it for work.

Again, I understand why only using the labels is not perfect. And this is one of the reasons why I'm trying to only chose mineral based fertilizer blends right now. That is, I'm not doing organics yet because labels tell you diddlysquat about what's really in a liquid organic blend.

 

[MrBungle]

Hey MisterBlah I'd like to say I started off on the wrong foot in this thread... I think I went against the grain, because the reason I started using salts was to get away from these bottled nute blends... Now that I see what you are doing a lil better, I'm with ya... Although I think it would be better for us to point folks towards making their own, rather than copycatting something else.. This might be a good way for someone who wouldn't normally be interested to get their feet wet, and realize salts aint so bad... Mixed in with organics they can be pretty friggin amazing....I'll be watching

 

[MisterBlah]

Hey MisterBlah I'd like to say I started off on the wrong foot in this thread... I think I went against the grain, because the reason I started using salts was to get away from these bottled nute blends... Now that I see what you are doing a lil better, I'm with ya... Although I think it would be better for us to point folks towards making their own, rather than copycatting something else.. This might be a good way for someone who wouldn't normally be interested to get their feet wet, and realize salts aint so bad... Mixed in with organics they can be pretty friggin amazing....I'll be watching

To be fair, I wasn't very clear with why I was doing this in the first place. So, I don't blame you too much. Communicating my view points is not exactly my strong point.

 

[hup234]

Mr.B as long as it's Christmas...can you make generic rootshield wp...is it doable ...thanks

 

[glow]

First off, I appreciate your comments. I really do.

But using all of this to advertise your own website is amusing to me.

Now, on to your concerns:

I'm well aware of the fact that what the guaranteed analysis says is not always exact and often times doesn't list the concentrations of everything. But I don't YET have $40 to shell out for hundreds of blends. So, I start with the guaranteed analysis and as the project progresses, I start to spend more money on lab analysis.

To say that something that is "not perfect but close" to be "way off" is ridiculous. We're growing plants here. We aren't worried if something is off by 2%. It really won't matter much. Having a formula that is 6% N versus 6.12% N will not show appreciable differences. Having a formula that is 3ppm Fe versus 3.06ppm Fe will not show appreciable differences.

Your concerns about the use of a CAN or CN tetrahydrate are reasonable. I have not yet had time to explain any of this. It is an ongoing project and it's not like this is my fulltime job. For the record, the CAN product that I've used in all of these are not too high in NH4-N. It's 14.4% NO3-N and 1.1% NH4-N. As is typical in most dry calcium nitrate products. This is not a calcium ammonium nitrate like CAN-17 or CAN-27. But I understand that I do need to accurately share this information and what each of these mean. On my todo list is a post on fertilizers and what you can actually buy vs what the chemical formula states. This will of course include information on purity.

Again, I understand I need more educational material.


Do you seriously think I'm some clod who doesn't understand this? Just because I don't mention it doesn't mean I don't know it. You really have to get it out of your head that just because I haven't written something down yet that is means I don't know it. I started doing this 3 fucking weeks ago. I appreciate your suggestions, but there's a lot that you are saying that is trying to make the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing.

In regards to batch to batch disparity, why is this important to you? Serious question. I know it happens. But if there is a disparity between two batches of what is advertised as the same fertilizer, you what happens? Nothing. An consumer does not adjust the amount they add to create their fertigation water. It's not like a normal consumer actually knows when a batch was mixed slightly differently. And it's not like their plants can tell either. The only time it would be an issue is if it's so bad that it would warrant a change in the labeling of the product.

Next you mention the need to put up W%/V and you are correct. I do. It's on the to do list. I didn't do it initially so I have to go back through everything I've worked on, regather that information, and then reformat it for the website. I agree that it needs to be done.

I do not use your software. I mention hydrobuddy because you can actually use hydrobuddy to do this. If you insist, I use Smart-Fertilizer's software because I also use it for work.

Again, I understand why only using the labels is not perfect. And this is one of the reasons why I'm trying to only chose mineral based fertilizer blends right now. That is, I'm not doing organics yet because labels tell you diddlysquat about what's really in a liquid organic blend.

Couple of things... I don't really need to promote the site here - most know about it and use it as a source of credible info - the point was to highlight and demonstrate the level of info that really is required to educate and glad to hear you are going to add more because it certainly is needed. Re elemental percentages - disagree - there can be very large disparities between different ferts but let's not get into a debate about that here. I actually like what you are doing a lot but wanted to highlight a few things. I might even link to your site when you have it sorted more - those working to educate and save growers being extorted for massive sums of cash from a too often shady industry need to work together and support one another. But it also needs raising that there are some problems with the info to date... You need to keep in mind who you are talking to and explain some basics about fertilizers, safety etc. And yes labels can be miles off from what is listed...

e.g. http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydropo...hype-about-hydroponic-nutrients-.html?start=1

Go to bottom of page to view lab analysis of H and G coir nute versus their label listing. This isn't uncommon. Having spent I don't know maybe 100K on lab analysis in the last 10 years we find massive disparities between label listings and what is actually in the bottles. If you were to mix the label listing it would perform differently than the actual formula so that is the point.


so you are not reverse engineering nutrients but labels and also have you tested your formulas side by side against the originals? All of this needs to be done to ensure quality formulas. As I said, having looked at a few of your formulas they are miles off the mark and I can guarantee they aren't on the same level as the originals. So bottom line keep it up - great stuff but it needs way more. Look forward to seeing where you go with this though.

I guess also I keep seeing people on forums saying KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) . I have another saying when it comes to nutrient chemistry and that is only the stupid keep it simple - so saying things like "its just like cooking. Just follow the recipe" makes me cringe.. I guess also the difference between grow hacks and top shelf growers is grow hacks keep it simple while top shelf growers (expert level growers) know there is an art and nothing simple about it to nailing premium yields and quality through environmental and precise nutritional control.

 

[glow]

Each and every one of the fertilizers that RAW sells is what you would use to create these blends. But don't use RAW. They are way to fucking expensive. Do a google search and you'll find sources of each of the compounds listed for a lot less money.

Seriously, if you blend your own fertilizers, you can spend 60-80% less money.

Never heard of RAW before but having looked them up what a joke. Who in hell would pay those figures for base fertilizers? Use Ebay and Amazon and go to Ag suppliers. The smaller the volume you buy though the higher the price per kilo so I can buy 25Kg of Cal Nit for $25.00 with small volume pruchases - actually I pay about $5.00 for 25Kg when I buy by the pallet load. But buy 1Kg and you'll likely pay $10.00. Better to buy more and store it properly in an airtight drum.

 

[MisterBlah]

Couple of things... I don't really need to promote the site here - most know about it and use it as a source of credible info - the point was to highlight and demonstrate the level of info that really is required to educate and glad to hear you are going to add more because it certainly is needed. Re elemental percentages - disagree - there can be very large disparities between different ferts but let's not get into a debate about that here. I actually like what you are doing a lot but wanted to highlight a few things. I might even link to your site when you have it sorted more - those working to educate and save growers being extorted for massive sums of cash from a too often shady industry need to work together and support one another. But it also needs raising that there are some problems with the info to date... You need to keep in mind who you are talking to and explain some basics about fertilizers, safety etc. And yes labels can be miles off from what is listed...

e.g. http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydropo...hype-about-hydroponic-nutrients-.html?start=1

Go to bottom of page to view lab analysis of H and G coir nute versus their label listing. This isn't uncommon. Having spent I don't know maybe 100K on lab analysis in the last 10 years we find massive disparities between label listings and what is actually in the bottles. If you were to mix the label listing it would perform differently than the actual formula so that is the point.


so you are not reverse engineering nutrients but labels and also have you tested your formulas side by side against the originals? All of this needs to be done to ensure quality formulas. As I said, having looked at a few of your formulas they are miles off the mark and I can guarantee they aren't on the same level as the originals. So bottom line keep it up - great stuff but it needs way more. Look forward to seeing where you go with this though.

I guess also I keep seeing people on forums saying KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) . I have another saying when it comes to nutrient chemistry and that is only the stupid keep it simple - so saying things like "its just like cooking. Just follow the recipe" makes me cringe.. I guess also the difference between grow hacks and top shelf growers is grow hacks keep it simple while top shelf growers (expert level growers) know there is an art and nothing simple about it to nailing premium yields and quality through environmental and precise nutritional control.

I read the post on your website and I see what you mean. I'll be honest, it doesn't surprise me, but then again, I'm more used to dealing with the big fertilizer producers like Yara, Agrium, Haifa, JR Simplot, etc. So, I know those guys do a better job of keeping things in check. I guess I was just expecting too much from most of these smaller companies.

Now, in regards to the whole idea of "Just follow the recipe", I can understand why you might cringe when I say that. But hear me out for a second.

I'm going to compare the consumer use of fertilizers to baking brownies.

You have options.

#1. Buy brownie mix. Add egg and water and put in oven
#1. Buy a liquid fertilizer blend. Add to water to dilute and them water your plants.

#2. Follow a brownie recipe that you found online.
#2. Follow my recipe of a reverse engineered liquid fertilizer blend that you found online.

Do you see the parallels?

I know educating people on what is in their fertilizers in necessary. And also the dangers of the chemical compounds they are using. But if I can get them to follow a specific set of directions (just like baking or cooking or chemistry lab), then I can convince a lot of people to switch on the basis of "it's really not as hard as you think". If you can bake your own brownies by following a recipe, you can mix your own fertilizer blends, just, ya know, follow the recipe. Deviate from it at your own risk.

Now, I know this puts the responsibility on me if things go south, but you also know that plants can handle a pretty wide range of concentrations of fertilizers. Sure, a change might cause a yield change, but most of the time they won't kill the plant, just hurt it or damage it. So many of these fertilizer blends have such wildly varying nutrient ratios and they all seem to grow plants reasonably well as long as you follow directions.

Anyway, hopefully you understand now.

 

[MisterBlah]

Mr.B as long as it's Christmas...can you make generic rootshield wp...is it doable ...thanks

Considering the cost of Rootsheild, I see why you want a cheaper alternative. But, unfortunately I'm not a breeder of Trichoderma harzianum fungi. It's patented, they say. Literally the best I could do it buy it in bulk and sell smaller quantities of it.

 

[glow]

I read the post on your website and I see what you mean. I'll be honest, it doesn't surprise me, but then again, I'm more used to dealing with the big fertilizer producers like Yara, Agrium, Haifa, JR Simplot, etc. So, I know those guys do a better job of keeping things in check. I guess I was just expecting too much from most of these smaller companies.

Now, in regards to the whole idea of "Just follow the recipe", I can understand why you might cringe when I say that. But hear me out for a second.

I'm going to compare the consumer use of fertilizers to baking brownies.

You have options.

#1. Buy brownie mix. Add egg and water and put in oven
#1. Buy a liquid fertilizer blend. Add to water to dilute and them water your plants.

#2. Follow a brownie recipe that you found online.
#2. Follow my recipe of a reverse engineered liquid fertilizer blend that you found online.

Do you see the parallels?

I know educating people on what is in their fertilizers in necessary. And also the dangers of the chemical compounds they are using. But if I can get them to follow a specific set of directions (just like baking or cooking or chemistry lab), then I can convince a lot of people to switch on the basis of "it's really not as hard as you think". If you can bake your own brownies by following a recipe, you can mix your own fertilizer blends, just, ya know, follow the recipe. Deviate from it at your own risk.

Now, I know this puts the responsibility on me if things go south, but you also know that plants can handle a pretty wide range of concentrations of fertilizers. Sure, a change might cause a yield change, but most of the time they won't kill the plant, just hurt it or damage it. So many of these fertilizer blends have such wildly varying nutrient ratios and they all seem to grow plants reasonably well as long as you follow directions.

Anyway, hopefully you understand now.

I hear ya for sure but then there is McDonalds and there is Michelin Star and when it comes to reverse engineering this becomes even more complex if you are truly to reverse engineer something --- actually truth be told most off the shelf nutes I dissect in the lab I actually go WTF??? either way so that helps you no end because they got it wrong in the first place As I said though I like what you are doing but yeah get some more info up to guide them.

And yes I deal with Yara and Haifa pretty much exclusively where buying Ag grade stuff but largely use more pure stuff which I am fortunate to have good supplies for (cost isn't too outrageous but more than most here would want to pay I expect if broken into smaller volumes). Thing is though the ferts sold through stores and online are all over the place so you can have massive differences in percentages plus often they don't list accurately which BTW also can apply to even Yara (who was busted recently in Ca for noncompliance to listing regs) and Haifa. Point being don't teach them to make McDonalds - teach them to cook properly.

 

[glow]

Help me make the original roots excelurator...thanks Mr.B

http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-nutrient-formulation/bennie-additive-formulation.html

This will teach you to make it just as well - probably better.. If you are in the US I can put you onto a dynamite supply of Trichoderma spp. but thing is unless you are prepared to do it properly don't waste your time.

 

[glow]

Oh and re cost/savings - actually more than this when mixing full spectrum ferts for hydro


Formulating your own 1 Litre Cal Mag + Cl Concentrate (Additive) to be used at 5ml/L in Solution


Having now calculated what amount of fertilizer is required to achieve our sort after ppm of Ca, Mg and Cl in 10 litres of solution we can now easily make a one litre concentrate of Cal Mag + Cl additive that can be used at a given dilution rate to achieve our sort after ppm of Ca, Mg and Cl in solution.

To keep things as simple as possible I’ll avoid going into the math but if I was to multiply the grams per 10L of each fertilizer required to achieve our sort after ppm of Ca, Mg and Cl in solution by 20 and add this amount of each fertilizer to 750ml of demineralized water and then top this solution (750ml demineralized water + fertilizers) up to one litre I would have a one litre concentrate/additive that can be used at 5ml/L in solution. Therefore, if I were to follow these steps:

1. Measure out 750ml of demineralized water
2. Add 24.4 grams calcium chloride and stir until the fertilizer is fully dissolved. Then:
3. Add 55.6 grams Mag Nit and stir until the fertilizer is fully dissolved. Then:
4. Add 23 grams calcium nitrate and stir until the fertilizer is fully dissolved. Then:
5. Top up to 1 litre and stir again. Then:
6. Place the 1 litre concentrate solution into a 1 litre bottle for storage.

Having followed these steps I can now use this concentrated solution (Cal Mag + Cl additive) at 5ml/L to achieve my sort after ppm of Ca, Mg and Cl in the nutrient solution. Quite simply, in understanding the information we have just covered you are on your way to becoming a nutrient and additive formulator. You could also times this all by five to mix 5 litres of concentrate or by 10 to mix 10 litres of Cal Mag + Cl concentrate.

And coming back to the point I made earlier about savings, based on purchasing 25Kg bags of agricultural fertilizers… If we purchased 25Kg bags of base fertilizers we would have enough calcium chloride fertilizer to mix 1,024 litres of a 5ml/L concentrate, enough magnesium nitrate to mix 448Ls and enough calcium nitrate to mix 1,086 Litres. Now let’s say that each bag of fertilizer cost us $50.00 which is $150,00 for 448Ls of stock Cal Mag + Cl concentrate before having to buy another bag of magnesium nitrate (+ $50.00 = $200.00) which would provide us with enough fertilizer to mix 896 litres of a Cal Mag + Cl concentrate (used at 5ml/L) for $200. At 5ml/L we therefore have enough liquid Cal Mag + Cl concentrate to treat 179,200 litres of nutrient working solution to achieve our desired ppm of Ca, Mg and Cl in solution.

Comparatively, these types of Cal Mag concentrates/additives are sold for about $20.00 a litre through hydroponic stores, Based on this, 10 litres of Cal Mag additive purchased through a hydroponic store at 10 x 1L bottles would set you back $200.00. Therefore, 896 litres of Cal Mag additive concentrate purchased through a hydroponic store in small volumes (1L at a time) would be $17,920 versus $200.00 to mix your own. To be fair, products sold through hydroponic stores tend to be more concentrated than the concentrate I mix so let’s say a Cal Mag and Cl additive purchased through a hydroponic store was used at 2.5ml/L. This equates to $8,960 to treat 200,000 litres versus $200.00 if we mix our own concentrate. Either way, $200.00 versus $8,960 (or $5000.00 etc) is massive savings in anyone’s terms.

 

[MrBungle]

To be fair, products sold through hydroponic stores tend to be more concentrated than the concentrate I mix

I believe guaranteed minimums is what ruins many crops.... everyone is afraid of what is actually in their bottles so they cut it in half assuming its double the strength (which it could be, but probably isnt),and perpetually underfeed their plants... then wonder why they aren't getting the same results as bob green thumb around the corner...

 

[glow]

I believe guaranteed minimums is what ruins many crops.... everyone is afraid of what is actually in their bottles so they cut it in half assuming its double the strength (which it could be, but probably isnt),and perpetually underfeed their plants... then wonder why they aren't getting the same results as bob green thumb around the corner...

Its definitely got better because the CDFA, ODA and others randomly purchase hydro store products and test them typically finding non compliance and ordering a fix up or even recall in some instances. This is just one reason though med growers should be blending their own formulas so they know exactly what they are using. I expect the bells are tolling for novice (non formally trained) med growers because the scene has pretty much shot itself in the foot and more and more in future I expect more skilled agriculturalists will be producing med and rec and the price will plummet due to large scale production in green houses etc and resins can be produced from outdoor grown as good as anything grown indoors. Basically though yes definitely because growers don't understand nutrient science many are getting subpar yields and not even understanding this because they've nothing to compare to.

 

[Fly by Night]

I understand you are MisterBlah, but glow is giving you a run for your money on the blah blah side. Whew

So, I've been lurking here for a long while. Just never felt the need to contribute yet. So, I created an account and I have some interesting information to share with everyone.

Some short background: I don't actually use the expensive bottled blends. Never have. Never will. I engineer all my own using software very similar to HydroBuddy.

I realized it's a piece of cake to reverse engineer the mineral based liquid and dry fertilizer blends that are so common on the consumer market. This post will show you how accurate the work I'm doing is. I'm not storing a shit ton of these on a forum post, so go to my blog for the actual blends: http://www.open-salt.com/fertilizer-database/

Anyway, this list will show how close you can actually get to the stated guaranteed analysis. Sometimes you can reach the number exactly, and other times you will be off by a small percentage. The reason you may be off by that small percentage is related to the laws behind fertilizer labeling and not due to a lack of trying to reach the exact number or otherwise. I’ve written a short article about that here: Commentary on the Laws Behind Fertilizer Labeling

Cultured Solutions Veg A:

Veg A has a guaranteed analysis that is the following,:
N total: 5%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 4.6%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.4%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 0%
Potassium, K2O: 0.3%
Calcium, Ca: 6%
Magnesium, Mg: 0%
Combined Sulfur: 0%
Iron, Fe: 0.057%
Copper, Cu: 0.0035%
Boron, B: 0.015%
Manganese, Mn: 0.017%
Molybdenum, Mo: 0.001%
Zinc, Zn: 0.003%

Derived from:
Ammonium Calcium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate
Iron EDTA
Copper EDTA
Manganese EDTA
Sodium Molybdate
Sodium Borate
Zinc EDTA

Here is what you need to get that:

Calcium Nitrate: 315,130 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 6483.4 mg/l
18% EDTA chelated Iron: 3,166.6 mg/l
18% chelated Manganese: 944.44 mg/l
15% chelated Boron: 1,000 mg/l
20% chelated Zinc: 150 mg/l
17% chelated Copper: 205.88 mg/l
8% chelated Molybdenum: 125 mg/l

This creates a blend that has the following percentages:
N total: 5.000%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 4.653%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.3466%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 0%
Potassium, K2O: 0.3%
Calcium, Ca: 5.987%
Magnesium, Mg: 0%
Combined Sulfur: 0%
Iron, Fe: 0.057%
Copper, Cu: 0.0035%
Boron, B: 0.015%
Manganese, Mn: 0.017%
Molybdenum, Mo: 0.001%
Zinc, Zn: 0.003%

You’ll notice I did not have any ammoniacal nitrogen sources, or it appear that way. I do not use specifically Ammonium Calcium Nitrate. This is because the Calcium Nitrate I used has a little bit of N-NH3 in it. It’s the Haifa GG Calcium Nitrate. You can buy it from some local fertilizer re-salers.

I also did not use a sodium molybdate or borate and instead decided to use the chelates. I did this because I try to reduce the amount of sodium I use in my hydroponic solutions as it tends to be bad to have above 75ppm of sodium in solution. When growing in soil it is less of an issue.

EDTA is a type of chelate, Iron tends to come in lots of types and the type determines the availability within a ph range. Chelation describes a particular way that ions and molecules bind metal ions. It makes them available to the plants in ways that they otherwise might not be when in solution. To put it simply.

Cultured Solutions Veg B:

Veg B has a guaranteed analysis that is the following,:
N total: 1.3%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 1.3%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 2.0%
Potassium, K2O: 5.9%
Calcium, Ca: 0%
Magnesium, Mg: 1.0%
Combined Sulfur: 1.3%

Derived from:
Mono-Potassium Phosphate
Potassium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulfate

Here is what you need to get that:

Mono-Potassium Phosphate: 38,457.32 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 98,518.52 mg/l
Magnesium Sulfate: 102,040.80 mg/l

This creates a blend that has the following percentages:
N total: 1.33%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 1.33%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.0%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 2.0%
Potassium, K2O: 5.889%
Calcium, Ca: 0.0%
Magnesium, Mg: 1.0%
Combined Sulfur: 1.327%

Net cost when you buy and measure this out: about $5-10/gallon instead of ~$45 per gallon.

Cultured Solutions Bloom A:

Bloom A has a guaranteed analysis that is the following,:
N total: 3.7%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 3.5%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.2%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 0%
Potassium, K2O: 3.0%
Calcium, Ca: 3.5%
Magnesium, Mg: 0%
Combined Sulfur: 0%
Iron, Fe: 0.09%
Copper, Cu: 0.0035%
Boron, B: 0.01%
Manganese, Mn: 0.017%
Molybdenum, Mo: 0.002%
Zinc, Zn: 0.007%

Derived from:
Ammonium Calcium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate
Iron EDTA
Copper EDTA
Manganese EDTA
Sodium Molybdate
Sodium Borate
Zinc EDTA

Here is what you need to get that:

Calcium Nitrate: 181,781.6 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 64834.04 mg/l
18% EDTA chelated Iron: 5,000.0 mg/l
18% chelated Manganese: 944.44 mg/l
15% chelated Boron: 666.67 mg/l
20% chelated Zinc: 350.0 mg/l
17% chelated Copper: 205.88 mg/l
8% chelated Molybdenum: 250.0 mg/l

This creates a blend that has the following percentages:
N total: 3.73%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 3.53%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.20%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 0%
Potassium, K2O: 3.0%
Calcium, Ca: 3.45%
Magnesium, Mg: 0%
Combined Sulfur: 0%
Iron, Fe: 0.09%
Copper, Cu: 0.0035%
Boron, B: 0.01%
Manganese, Mn: 0.017%
Molybdenum, Mo: 0.002%
Zinc, Zn: 0.007%

Cultured Solutions Bloom B:

Bloom B has a guaranteed analysis that is the following,:
N total: 0.9%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 0.9%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 4.8%
Potassium, K2O: 6.2%
Calcium, Ca: 0%
Magnesium, Mg: 0.75%
Combined Sulfur: 1.0%

Derived from:
Mono-Potassium Phosphate
Potassium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulfate

Here is what you need to get that:

Mono-Potassium Phosphate: 92,297.58 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 65,007.48 mg/l
Magnesium Sulfate: 76,530.61 mg/l

This creates a blend that has the following percentages:
N total: 0.878%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 0.878%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 4.8%
Potassium, K2O: 6.2%
Calcium, Ca: 0%
Magnesium, Mg: 0.75%
Combined Sulfur: 1.0%

Yep the first mistake you'd be making is using labels to reverse engineer from - often what is in the bottle is very different from what is listed on the label. So first rule is to spend about $40 per solution getting them lab analyzed so you have an accurate starting point.

I'll be posting formulas shortly at www.manicbotanix.com --- just posted today how to formulate Cal Mag or Cal Mag and Cl http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydropo...olution-using-drysolid-base-fertilizers-.html


Will though post a bunch more in the coming weeks as to making concentrates such as House and Garden and Canna coir formulas etc.

Nice work Mister Blah but knowing what is in a bunch of formulas you have posted many of them are a way off from the originals.

For example, your Advanced Nutrient formulas are miles away from how Advanced Nutrients formulate re pH Perfect technology and you have missed completely that their microelements consist of standard chelates along with amino proteinates... Canna not only uses FE EDTA but Fe DTPA etc. And man that GH 3 part formula looks as if you couldn't hit targets so just jacked it....

You also need to post a lot more information about formulation chemistry principles because you have listed g/L of e.g. calcium nitrate --- however, what purity of calcium nitrate and what percentages of Ca and NO3 N? Basically in the wrong hands --- i.e. most people on this forum who have zero formulation knowledge could make a mess of things very easily and even create a nutrient from your formulas that would harm their plants from the info you have provided because so much of the puzzle is missing. What if they don't understand that most calcium nitrate fertilizers contain both NO3 N and NH4 N and formulate with one of these Ca NO3 N ferts, which is highly likely unless you explain the situation? Yeah they have just added way to much NH4 N. So did you formulate using CAN or calcium nitrate tetrahydrate etc?

And you have a lot of work to do re putting up educational material re formulation theory. If you don't do all of this your site is potentially dangerous in its current form. Check out http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydropo...olution-using-drysolid-base-fertilizers-.html and compare what I have written to what you have explained to growers - its like chalk and cheese. People need grounding in the theory otherwise formulas as g/L of this and that are plain dangerous shit for the novice who has no idea about formulating nutrients and additives.

First and foremost you fail to note that all base nutrient fertilizers have different elemental percentages and that even on a batch to batch basis these elemental percentages can change. You need to list %w/v and ppm targets next to a list of elements in solution. Of course I am likely speaking an alien language to most here which is really what is really wrong with the picture. More worryingly I'm not sure whether you quite grasp the chemistry. Its dead easy chemistry but for someone without a chem education its rocket science. You need to teach them the chemistry which isn't too hard but takes a hell of a lot of time in writing and programming calculators to help them along.

Just quickly though when I post the House and Garden coir formula I will be showing the whole process involved in reverse engineering step by step using software I will be giving away. Without this software it is easy for non chem heads to get things wrong and drop numbers (particularly so when you're stoned_. Other than this elemental targets will be listed with elements/ion species. I'm actually thinking that the software you talk about that isn't hydrobuddy is possibly the software I programmed several years ago (Manic Botanix Hydroware) because there are only a few programs on the market and mine I believe is the only program which formulates concentrates as per what is available through hydro stores because I programmed it for this purpose, All the other programs as far as I know and this applies to hydro buddy aren't culturally appropriate. Why you being so cagey about it man ---? Either way it will be freely available to all soon so all good.

Also adding this material now on making bennie additives http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-nutrient-formulation/bennie-additive-formulation.html --- still to complete it re adding a trichoderma brew and bottling and storing info but again you can see the extent to which I explain things as clearly as possible so that the reader gets the science that underpins why they are doing things.

And yes do not reverse engineer from labels... This said keep up the good work and keep going but you definitely need to lab analyze things and also have a better idea of what is in the originals. I think also you perhaps need to learn more about formulating yourself as it is not as straight forward as you are presenting it which is way too dumbed down. So much so the info re formulas in the wrong hands could wipe out a crop or cost someone massively in yields.

 

[MisterBlah]

I understand you are MisterBlah, but glow is giving you a run for your money on the blah blah side. Whew

That was a good pun.