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RECENT interesting findings
- Thread starter Sam_Skunkman
- Start date
Chloride Dependence of Growth in Bacteria
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1016/S0378-1097(03)00509-3/full
Markus Roeßler,
Xaver Sewald,
Volker Müller
First published: August 2003
DOI: 10.1016/S0378-1097(03)00509-3
Not exactly recent but a solid quick read. I don't have much time to see if this has been expounded upon - but if anyone can point me towards more publications like this one, lemme know.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1016/S0378-1097(03)00509-3/full
Markus Roeßler,
Xaver Sewald,
Volker Müller
First published: August 2003
DOI: 10.1016/S0378-1097(03)00509-3
Not exactly recent but a solid quick read. I don't have much time to see if this has been expounded upon - but if anyone can point me towards more publications like this one, lemme know.
Agronomist
Active member
bsgospel,
I beg your pardon, But how is this of any relevant's to growing Cannabis?
This article talks about specific bacteria that utilize Cl ions for growth in salty (and maybe dry) environments.
I beg your pardon, But how is this of any relevant's to growing Cannabis?
This article talks about specific bacteria that utilize Cl ions for growth in salty (and maybe dry) environments.
Got me there- let me explain myself a little bit. It was just a hint at how microbes and bacteria can either thrive or not in less than RO/picture perfect conditions. Be it in composting or hydro, many use the bacteria examined in that paper in creating cultures/flagellates/what have you for the benefit of cannabis and other plants. I run a bit of compost teas myself and I was seriously wondering what could be so terrible about using tap water to brew home batches. Water supplies contain chloride, not chlorine (at least in my city.) So I googled chloride vs. bacteria and that's what presented itself.
Or supposing that if anyone else could point me towards other chloride or bacteria findings in relation to growing, I'm all ears. I'll literally chase down anything that helps me learn and that was just a jumping off point for a specific part of bacteria in relation to growing.
Agronomist
Active member
In RO water you will have a very small amount of microbs. The cells will explode from the water poring into the cells.
Almost no one uses RO water in agriculture. It's more like a misconception in the Cannabis community.
Fell free to use tap water. There is nothing wrong with that.
Almost no one uses RO water in agriculture. It's more like a misconception in the Cannabis community.
Fell free to use tap water. There is nothing wrong with that.
led05
Chasing The Present
what about a person with tap that is say 400+ ppm filled with too much Mg, Fe etc like Many, they don't or shouldn't use RO as part of their water mix? RO has its' place for sure, to dismiss it completely in growing or even AG is foolish and untrue.
It's not often used in large commercial AG Mainly because AG doesn't use straight from tap.. they have lakes, streams, rivers, ponds, reservoirs etc, it's also expensive vs other options to filtration - you're misleading and partially wrong in what you're saying, sorry
Agronomist
Active member
400 PPM of what? Total solids?
That number is totally normal, And i will not advise t use RO in this case.
If you want to know what your water contains you need to send a sample to a lab.
Only then you can make a good assessment if you need to use RO or not/.
At this point, it looks as tho you are misleading and partially wrong in what you're saying, sorry
AG?
That number is totally normal, And i will not advise t use RO in this case.
If you want to know what your water contains you need to send a sample to a lab.
Only then you can make a good assessment if you need to use RO or not/.
At this point, it looks as tho you are misleading and partially wrong in what you're saying, sorry
AG?
led05
Chasing The Present
400PPM filled with too much Mg & Fe, did you miss that part?..., This is very common for a lot of muni water, especially in the mountains... I understand lab analysis well, or I can get it for free, for muni water at least, like most municipal water supply in the USA which are required to file extremely detailed reports, much more in depth than your lab in case you care to know.
I don't want to detract from this thread but you couldn't help but call out the other guy here earlier so I felt compelled...
400ppm water is a very poor starting point unless somehow magically the bulk of it was Ca
Sam,
Lots of growers have knocked back PM issues getting their metal levels higher in the soil and the plant, most specifically Mn, Cu and Zn. All of which in sulfate form qualify as organic.
Most composts, worm castings and manures are loaded with Fe, causing massive balance issues against the other metals. Where you have Fe=>Mn, you can add 50 to 200% yield increases.
Without that ratio being close, the plant won't complex simple sugars, meaning that active production is greatly reduced due to a simple balancing problem.
Maui is one of those places where Mn>Fe by the way.
When there is not enough Ca, the cell walls are not as strong as well. Everyone that has gotten their soil analyzed (see the slownickel lounge thread) has had way too much K vs Ca.
Love your posts by the way!
socioecologist
Member
First, know what your end goals are and how to get there. Read the papers posted by Sam. That will take a bit. A helpful tool for squares (remove the "s" in https):
scienceprimer.com/punnett-square-calculator
Then, buy PCR and DNA extraction gear. Learn how to use it. Run hundreds of tests. Alter the protocol to dial in accurate prediction of your particular alleles with secondary chemical analysis (temperature gradient testing with known material is key here). Voila! You have yourself a basic chemotyping tool via PCR.
Oh, and grow some plants. Hundreds of thousands per year at minimum.
led05
Chasing The Present
First, know what your end goals are and how to get there. Read the papers posted by Sam. That will take a bit. A helpful tool for squares (remove the "s" in https):
scienceprimer.com/punnett-square-calculator
Then, buy PCR and DNA extraction gear. Learn how to use it. Run hundreds of tests. Alter the protocol to dial in accurate prediction of your particular alleles with secondary chemical analysis (temperature gradient testing with known material is key here). Voila! You have yourself a basic chemotyping tool via PCR.
Oh, and grow some plants. Hundreds of thousands per year at minimum.
You brothers are amazing, what you're doing great but this post in a way strikes me as arrogant, unlike any other you've ever done...
don't get too big for them britches and remember your roots
Thanks for your work
if I had to guess, offers or $$ flow is a coming, stay true
socioecologist
Member
You brothers are amazing, what you're doing great but this post in a way strikes me as arrogant, unlike any other you've ever done...
don't get too big for them britches and remember your roots
Thanks for your work
if I had to guess, offers or $$ flow is a coming, stay true
Well shit, no arrogance intended and apologies to everyone if it came across that way. Thanks for the kind words and redirect if I was out of line. Sam has always provided the best advice in terms of searching for something unique (grow as many plants as possible), so the end of the post was supposed to reflect that sage, but often overlooked wisdom.
I thought Mate Dave was asking about the youPCR picture that Sam posted and how that would / could translate to breeding. We've been working with the platform since last summer. Screening for male / female is robust, accurate, fast, relatively cheap. Screening for active CBDa or THCa alleles is much more difficult. Kevin McKernan @ Medicinal Genomics is always working to make the test better by adding new active allele data as it comes in, but the test is very temperature sensitive and we are still getting occasional false positives on the CBDa side. We use the youPCR screen to segregate type I / type IV and type III / type IV in our current projects.
The platform works great for type I / II / III segregation that many people are working on to breed better type IIs and IIIs. When a pure THC parent (P1) is crossed with a pure CBD parent (P2) and the resulting progeny open pollinated / selfed, the square for F2s looks like this (generated from the previously linked website) :
T = functional THCa allele
t = nonfunctional THCa allele
D = fuctional CBDa allele
d = nonfunctional CBDa allele
led05
Chasing The Present
Like I said...- amazing, you guys..... it seems this industry corrupts the best; probably worst too but whatever; I've watched you/team posts for a long time and have always been amazed by the humility and truthiness that resonates, on other forums too, I believe you've always had same name?
Anyhow, not a dick-rub; excuse me but hope others will follow.... It's so inevitable that big $ will swamp this space and run it; run it to the extent small or mid money that is involved and believes is washed over....
I wonder how Peter C feels in Co lately,this is why CO is so special, the folks bucked the big $ directly, it's truly special and in history will be way more significant than realized today.
socioecologist
Member
Legendary plant biologist Dr. Ernest Small released the most comprehensive agronomy and breeding paper on cannabis to date (“Dwarf germplasm: the key to giant Cannabis hempseed and cannabinoid crops”). He calls for the development of cannabinoid-rich, large seeded, day neutral varieties and hails them as the future of cannabis production, while lamenting research restrictions in place preventing the use of appropriate germplasm (i.e. high resin content type I) to develop these varieties.
Full article here: sci-hub.cc/10.1007/s10722-017-0597-y
*** Abstract ***
After a century of banishment, both euphoric (‘‘marijuana’’) and non-euphoric (‘‘industrial hemp’’) classes of Cannabis sativa are attracting billions of dollars of investment as new legitimate crops. Most domesticated C. sativa is very tall, a phenotype that is desirable only for hemp fibre obtained from the stems. However, because the principal demands today are for chemicals from the inflorescence and oilseeds from the infructescence, an architecture maximizing reproductive tissues while minimizing stems is appropriate. Such a design was the basis of the greatest short-term increases in crop productivity in the history of agriculture: the creation of short-stature (‘‘semi-dwarf’’), high-harvest-index grain cultivars, especially by ideotype breeding, as demonstrated during the ‘‘Green Revolution.’’ This paradigm has considerable promise for C. sativa. The most critical dwarfing character for breeding such productivity into C. sativa is contraction of internodes. This reduces stem tissues (essentially a waste product except for fibre hemp) and results in compact inflo- rescences (which, on an area basis, maximize cannabi- noid chemicals) and infructescences (which maximize oilseed production), as well as contributing to ease of harvesting and efficiency of production on an area basis. Four sources of germplasm useful for breeding semi-dwarf biotypes deserve special attention: (1) Naturally short northern Eurasian wild plants (often photoperiodically day-neutral, unlike like most bio- types) adapted to the stress of very short seasons by maximizing relative development of reproductive tissues. (2) Short, high-harvest-index, oilseed plants selected in northern regions of Eurasia. (3) ‘‘Indica type’’ marijuana, an ancient semi-dwarf cultigen tracing to the Afghanistan-Pakistan area. (4) Semi- dwarf strains of marijuana bred illegally in recent decades to avoid detection when grown clandestinely indoors for the black market. Although the high THC content in marijuana strains limits their usage as germplasm for low-THC cultivars, modern breeding techniques can control this variable. The current elimination of all marijuana germplasm from breeding of hemp cultivars is short-sighted because marijuana biotypes possess a particularly wide range of genes. There is an urgent need to develop public gene bank collections of Cannabis.
Full article here: sci-hub.cc/10.1007/s10722-017-0597-y
*** Abstract ***
After a century of banishment, both euphoric (‘‘marijuana’’) and non-euphoric (‘‘industrial hemp’’) classes of Cannabis sativa are attracting billions of dollars of investment as new legitimate crops. Most domesticated C. sativa is very tall, a phenotype that is desirable only for hemp fibre obtained from the stems. However, because the principal demands today are for chemicals from the inflorescence and oilseeds from the infructescence, an architecture maximizing reproductive tissues while minimizing stems is appropriate. Such a design was the basis of the greatest short-term increases in crop productivity in the history of agriculture: the creation of short-stature (‘‘semi-dwarf’’), high-harvest-index grain cultivars, especially by ideotype breeding, as demonstrated during the ‘‘Green Revolution.’’ This paradigm has considerable promise for C. sativa. The most critical dwarfing character for breeding such productivity into C. sativa is contraction of internodes. This reduces stem tissues (essentially a waste product except for fibre hemp) and results in compact inflo- rescences (which, on an area basis, maximize cannabi- noid chemicals) and infructescences (which maximize oilseed production), as well as contributing to ease of harvesting and efficiency of production on an area basis. Four sources of germplasm useful for breeding semi-dwarf biotypes deserve special attention: (1) Naturally short northern Eurasian wild plants (often photoperiodically day-neutral, unlike like most bio- types) adapted to the stress of very short seasons by maximizing relative development of reproductive tissues. (2) Short, high-harvest-index, oilseed plants selected in northern regions of Eurasia. (3) ‘‘Indica type’’ marijuana, an ancient semi-dwarf cultigen tracing to the Afghanistan-Pakistan area. (4) Semi- dwarf strains of marijuana bred illegally in recent decades to avoid detection when grown clandestinely indoors for the black market. Although the high THC content in marijuana strains limits their usage as germplasm for low-THC cultivars, modern breeding techniques can control this variable. The current elimination of all marijuana germplasm from breeding of hemp cultivars is short-sighted because marijuana biotypes possess a particularly wide range of genes. There is an urgent need to develop public gene bank collections of Cannabis.
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If the link does not work try https://sci-hub.tw/10.1007/s10722-017-0597-y
Dwarf germplasm: the key to giant Cannabis hempseed and cannabinoid crops
Interesting paper I was sent last month. That said I found some I disagreed with, I sent him a response, explaining why. Nice reply from Ernest.
Auto day neutral varieties do not normally produce as much resin, that is a problem for the other Cannabinoids if they are the targets.
I have known Ernie for years and like his work.
BTW I have small seeds 1.25 grams to 1000 seeds, 800+ to the gram as well as big seeds that are 83 grams for 1000 seeds, 12 to the gram, that is a wider range then he reported.
Work by Medicinal Genomics in progress
Single molecule sequencing reveals the structure of the Bt:Bd allele in Cannabis
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/08/028654.full.pdf
doi: 10.1101/028654
-SamS
Dwarf germplasm: the key to giant Cannabis hempseed and cannabinoid crops
Interesting paper I was sent last month. That said I found some I disagreed with, I sent him a response, explaining why. Nice reply from Ernest.
Auto day neutral varieties do not normally produce as much resin, that is a problem for the other Cannabinoids if they are the targets.
I have known Ernie for years and like his work.
BTW I have small seeds 1.25 grams to 1000 seeds, 800+ to the gram as well as big seeds that are 83 grams for 1000 seeds, 12 to the gram, that is a wider range then he reported.
Work by Medicinal Genomics in progress
Single molecule sequencing reveals the structure of the Bt:Bd allele in Cannabis
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/08/028654.full.pdf
doi: 10.1101/028654
-SamS
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socioecologist
Member
Thanks Sam. 12 seeds to the gram??? That's incredible. Our largest is 40 seeds per gram and I have a hard time imagining how it could get any bigger. Very cool.
Day neutral are definitely lower in total cannabinoid content, but not prohibitively so. We have them averaging 12% CBD in our type III field varieties and 10% CBG in our type IVs. Their photoperiod counterparts have about 20% higher content on average (15% and 12%, respectively). (note: all tests performed by NELAP accredited labs).
Two other things to think about when considering the relative efficiency of day neutral vs. photoperiod: (1) stem weight and (2) multiple harvests. We are finding that the average stem weight (as a proportion of total plant weight) on full season photoperiod varieties is about 27%; day neutrals come in at 18%. Autos allow at least two harvests per season in a decent production environment or five if you plan to grow in the central valley of California...
Having plants that can reliably finish in late July / early August allows certain locations (i.e. Oregon's Willamette valley) to field dry; when costly drying infrastructure is removed from the equation and finished plants can be picked up with a combine, day neutrals start to look pretty appealing.
Here's one of our berry flavored type III autos; they have more resin than many photoperiod varietals.
Do you also grow hemp for fiber? IF SO HOW RETTED? We found field retted in E Europe and China, easy but not as good quality as water retted for fiber. Specially color was better, with water retted.
I found several others that have seeds 30 to the gram. But 800+ to the gram never have I seen anyone close.
-SamS
I found several others that have seeds 30 to the gram. But 800+ to the gram never have I seen anyone close.
-SamS
socioecologist
Member
Fiber is a byproduct for us (animal bedding), so I have little experience there.
800 seeds to the gram is preposterously small. We have some varieties with "small" seeds (0.7g / 100), but nothing even remotely close. Did it pose germination issues or affect overall vigor? Our smallest seed variety produces the highest average cannabinoid content of all our lines.
