R/O units,cal-mag,and soil grows.

[Guest]

Now thats interesting,and cornfusing.No dolomite and no calmag,and no defeciencies?I believe you of course I just dont understand,if its not necessary I dont want to use it.I dont want to wait until a defeciency is obvious either to use it.Maybe I'll go with every other watering or something like that..My 45 GPD R/O unit might be installed today if my plumber/neighbor is ready.I dont plumb I wire lol

 

[Guest]

howdy ballastman
ok i did find the post info i was talking about, the post was from the slickester. hope this helps. im looking for an or unit for home for the family, did you get it from the net or local?


quote from post:
Will greensand from a locally available nursery contain any pests or gnats of any kind? Or are these marine deposits naturally pest free like seaweed? It would appear as though the greensand would not be optimal for coco based mixes as the coco has and retains lots of potassium already, and that in coco this can offset other micro-nutrients and minerals such as magnesium, calcium, iron, etc. Causing the grower to use in-organic "correctors" like cal-mag-plus which has EDTA based derivative minerlas whereby the EDTA never leaves the plant and is not decomposible by plant or biologically. I will post that reference below, but first on glauconite, for peat based ammending;

"Glauconite
Texas Greensand (Glauconite): Texas greensand is an iron potassium, silicate that is green in color due to the minerals it contains. Greensand is a marine deposit that contains traces of many if not all of the elements which are in seawater. It has been used successfully for enriching soils for over 100 years. Approximate analysis is 0-2-5. This is a natural source of phosphorous, potash, and trace minerals. Texas greensand is different than the glauconite from the New Jersey area. The natural Texas product contains about 19 percent iron and about 2 percent magnesium. Its pH is 8.3, but don’t let that fool you. Use it on all plants for an effective green-up. Research at Garden-Ville farm proved green sand to be better than most iron products in helping plants overcome chlorosis in high pH soils, slightly better than granite sand. The iron supplement that we recommend the least is Ironite because tests have shown that it has high levels of lead and arsenic. The company agrees with the existence of the heavy metals but argues that the risk is slight since the product is in the gallena form and not quickly available. As a soil conditioner Texas greensand can be used at 10-50 pounds per 1000 square feet on lawns or tilled into the soil. It is also an excellent amendment for golf greens and tees. In potting soils it can be used at a rate of 5-20 pounds per cubic yard."

An 8.3 PH would go good with the acidic peat mosses, like dolomite. And with a 0-2-5 NPK value, it appears optimal for flowering. But what about at vegetative transplant/s, or for sprout mixes along with something high nitrogen?

Now for the excerpt from OG on EDTA based mineral adjunctives;

"Contributed by: AeRoGaNiC
Thanks to: aallonharja
Submitted: March 13th, 2005

(aallonharja)
EDTA-compounds are commonly used in liquid Hydroponic nutrient products to chelate iron and other metallic nutrient ions.

Chelates

Simply put - chelates bond to metals the plant uses for growth, in soil or hydro, and ensures they are stable and mobile. Chelation is an essential for healthy plants. If chelation is poor, the plant will be forced to expend energy to find available nutrients in the medium.

EDTA


Ethyldiaminetetraacetic acid, also known as EDTA is used to chelate metal ions. EDTA belongs to a class of synthetic compounds known as polyaminocarboxylic acids It has a negative ionic charge, known as an anion, - EDTA4. The important ions are highlighted on yellow. These cations bond with anions to form chelates; ie K+ (potasium anion) will bond with the EDTA cation.

The ions from EDTA completely wrap up the entire metal ion all 6 positions. EDTA bonds really well with Magnesium and Calcium as well as many other metal ions like Iron. In fact it appears that Fe is the most finicky element to keep soluble with pH. EDTA is a great stabilizing agent that keeps iron soluble in pH fluctuations. The unusual property of EDTA as a chelating agent is its ability to chelate ( aka complex metal ions) in 1:1 metal to EDTA complexes (If one is familiar with the abilities of chelates, this is a very strong proportion).

Effects on the environment

However, a problem with EDTA is its inability to biodegrade in the environment. EDTA is found in many natural waters and occurs at higher levels in wastewater. This can be a reason to try and avoid EDTA if you can, its inability to dissolve. Western European countries have banned the use of EDTA in detergents, where it is commonly used to chelate metal ions in tapwater. A ban was adopted in Australia as well.

EDDS (S, S'-ethylenediaminedisuccinic acid), a structural isomer of EDTA, has been used as a biodegradable substitute. EDDS is a good complexing agent and is broken down during wastewater treatment processes, unlike EDTA. This is accomplished by performing structural change, which can be seen in the posted pics. The chemical structure of EDDS is organic where EDTA lacks carbon molecules.

Pic 1: EDTA
Pic 2: EDDS

Organic Chelates

Negative Effects of Synthetic Chelates

EDTA doesnt dissipate in soils and does not break down. This is a serious environmental hazard. Over time EDTA can disserve its function. EDTA can cause reactions in transferable elements and cause precipitation when it fails. One could even argue this stress having an effect on yield, and overall degradation of genetics.

Genetic function relies upon a perfectly balanced equilibrium of environment and chelation. Synthetic chelates can, and often do, interfere with the osmotic equilibrium, by causing precipitation. This imbalance in the environment can cause deficiencies, ergo stress. We want to give our plants the best quality of life. Using organic chelates have demonstrated in a better efficiency of chelation. Organic chelates are just more absorbable and stable than inorganic chelates.

So what the hell can I use?

Humic acid has organic chelates and chelating agents. The microbial activity greatly increases the amount of organic chelating agents being created as well as a natural byproduct. The chelation agents they produce bond with metal ions and become available to plants. Chlorophyll is a chelate that consists of a complex chelating agent with magnesium as the central atom. Hemoglobin in blood is also a great chelating agent. Interestingly enough, the only difference between hemoglobin and chlorophyll is the Fe central atom as opposed to the Mg atom.

Chelation occurs naturally during composting though microbial activity. Adding organic material is also a great way to increase the level of chelating agents by providing beneficial bacteria with food - basically increasing their production of natural chelating agents. Soils with high Cation Exhcange Capacity are generally high in chelating agents and organic content.

What are the benefits?

Theoretically less stress. A smooth chelation process is essential for plants to use minerals and keep them from bonding with each other, this keeps them mobile and stops them from precipitating. Chelating agents nullify the positive charge on the ion and cause it to be more neutral or be a slightly charged anion, encouraging the nutrients to transfer through the pores on the leaf and root surface more rapidly.

Since pores are negatively charged to attract ions, this negative or neutral charge makes ionic bonding and storage of elements in the root pores less likely, increasing the efficiency of the root system.

Sometimes inorganic elements are bound so tightly with their chelates (in synthetic situations) that they cannot be released for physiological function. The plant has a hard time breaking down the inorganic chelates, where as the organic chelates do not share any of the same problems as the synthetics. Using organic chelates has been demonstrated scientifically to produce healthier plants.

One thing is for sure, EDTA is not biodegradable! If you choose to use chemical salts take some time to see what they are chelated with. Even in organics, minerals are sometimes chelated with EDTA, which has been accepted as "organic". However, as I already said it doesn?t break down, and should be avoided if at all possible.

Sources (Chemical Chelates section):

Calculation of EDTA á4 values at any pH

scifun.chem.wisc.edu

Ted Lister, Janet Renshaw :"Understanding Chemistry for Advanced Level"

F. Albert Cotton :"Advanced Inorganic Chemistry"


Sources (Organic Chelates section):

http://www.jhbiotech.com/plant_products/chelation.htm

Bell, Colin F. :"Principles and Applications of Metal Chelation" Oxford, 1977

foliarfert.com

Tro, Nivaldo J. :"Introductory Chemistry Essentials"

Francis A. Carey, Richard J. Sundberg :"Advanced Organic Chemistry: Structure and Mechanisms"

Richard J. Sundberg, Francis A. Carey :"Advanced Organic Chemistry: Reaction and Synthesis"
Last modified: 00:49 - Apr 04, 2005 "

So some alternatives for magnesium or PH down are the Ful-mag. Which is 3% Fulvic Acid (a natural mineral chelator/unlocker) and magnesium sulphate(liquid epsom salts). The magnesium is good for magnesium hungry oversized Indica Leafed strains like DC, etc. as well as lower lighting conditions (less than 250 watts of HID or CFL, etc. Then for alternatives to the Iron, it could be iron sulphate or iron protienate amongst other forms, and for calcium, crushed sea shells or bone meal. But it states in there that the simple addition of EDTA containing products is part of the cause of the imbalance, so perhaps with fulvic acid as a chelator, it is possible the other micro-nutrients can be obtainable from the various organic sources like guanos, teas, castings, etc. Possibly along with the addition of some seaweed and some molasses especially during flowering but not simply limited to as it has a natural source of iron in itself. Possibly gets locked out where EDTA chemicals are blocking or disrupting places as not removable they stay.
________________________________________
Last edited by The Slickster : 01-01-2007 at 04:53 AM


zigg

 

[Guest]

Damn my tapwater read 425 PPM with the dinky free meter they sent,by the way its a 50 GDP 4 stage its being installed as I type.My friend smokes but doesnt have a clue there are 30 flowering plants ffet away,thanks vaportronic/vaportek!Oh yea http://www.waterfiltersonline.com/.The site was down before

 

[Buddox]

I add half a litre of tap water to three litres of R/O water and have had no probs.
I use Epsom salts a week before turning to 12/12, about ten days in and about five weeks into 12/12. Works well for me.

Buddox

 

[Guest]

You know someone else mentioned mixing tap and R/o for soil grows,sounds ike an idea.Turns out its a five stage after all,it'll be installed in an hour or so yippy!Again,thank you vaportronic systems Inc!!

 

[Guest]

All my neighbors think I went from working as a full time electrician to working on the puter buying and selling on EBAY.OOO thats a good deal I say as I type with them 5 feet away lol,I'm so tricky...EDIT For eveyone's info,when you hook up an R/O system,you should let the tank fill(i have a 3 gal) then dump it,you can use the second tank according to my plumber buddy

 

[Guest]

All done.EDIT 4 hours later I'm draining the first tank,it read 40 PPM which beats the hell outta 425 lol,but he said the second tank will be the first to use.My dehumid water reads 25 PPM,anyone else check their dehumid water?

 

[Guest]

shit, my mayo has EDTA in it! i ain't givin up my hellmans tho, no way in hell!
they can have my jar when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. lol

that's cool ballast man. i gotta git goin on one here. how bout tryin some ro +tap mixes and git some numbers. later.

 

[Guest]

ahh, you already posted numbers, hehe. i wrote that last post and then left, never posted it. haaaaaa. and i ain't even stoned. haaaaaa.

 

[Guest]

The second three gallons reads between 25-40 PPM,a far cry from 425-440 which is what my tapwater reads.This thing makes 3 gallons every three hours too,plenty of water.I've been wanting to do this awhile,its my last thing.

 

[Verite]

Now thats interesting,and cornfusing.No dolomite and no calmag,and no defeciencies?I believe you of course I just dont understand,if its not necessary I dont want to use it.I dont want to wait until a defeciency is obvious either to use it.Maybe I'll go with every other watering or something like that..My 45 GPD R/O unit might be installed today if my plumber/neighbor is ready.I dont plumb I wire lol

#1 reason? .. its 10x easier to correct a slight def than it is to correct any overfeed/lockout situation. First part is understanding in detail whats in your ferts. Then understand not every breed of MJ is a cal/mag hog. Then get better at reading your plants because thats the key. Theyll tell you what they need.

Ive heard people over recommend cal/mag for months and the reality is if you constantly dose your plants with cal/mag suppliments, dolomite lime, and epsoms youre gonna have problems.

 

[Guest]

You're probably right verlite,I should go real easy with it until I see how the strains react to clean water.All my dehumid water has been devoted to vegging plants,now I'll have good water for both stages.I'm really considering maybe 1/3 tap 2/3 R/o also,it just may be the thing to do.I've finished some nice plants with this calcified water,probably because I feed 2 teaspoons tiger bloom cause calcium will really fuck with your phosphorous uptake.

 

[Guest]

There was a little extra tubing that fit perfectly up in the faucet,taped watertight and cut to about 3 ft to go directly into a gallon jug,I'm in heaven!EDIT I'll still have 40 gallon jugs laying around my kitchen,dont see any way around that.

 

[Guest]

After googlin reverse osmosis water and cal-mag plus,I think I'll stick with cal mag every other watering,a teaspoon per gallon each watering is suggested though for the most part from what I read

 

[Guest]

ballastman, ya gotta git a 50 gal barrel man. the jugs thing is such a p.i.a..it was a nice day when i got me a barrel. fill the barrel and adjust 40 gal's at a whack. just dip and pour.
that's of course you got room for it and if ya don't, forget everything i've said. heheh

 

[hogwild]

Its super easy to change the ph of pure water... thats why its nice to have a lot on hand so you dont overdo it... my life got a lot easier when i started using this 55 gallon brute. this ones about to die on me i had to patch her with some jb weld but ill be purchasing another one soon, they last forever.



Its nice because my R/O was a quality unit, it just came with no spigot and no holding tank so i had to make do, kindof off topic but you should get one bro.. it saves so much time. I also have a nice 1300 gph pump in there i can screw my garden hose onto so i can water around the yard with pure water.

About that cal mag i wouldnt use it every time, theres a good lot of info on cal mag in the nutrient profiles thread by lucas.

 

[Guest]

Ordering a 50 gallon rainbarrel from rainbarrels and more online,100 bucks not bad.Thanks for everyones ideas

 

[Guest]

you'll like it fer sure. i got one of the same ones on that site. found it in the classifieds used for 10 bucks. just a local guy thats been sellin em for years. those barrels are tough as a drunken nun on st. patties day. last ya a life time.