Question about Polymer pistols

[moose eater]

I’m probably gonna hurt some butts, but I’ll never understand recommendations for a revolver for anything other than novelty and range play. ESPECIALLY for new shooters. To each his own, but there are many reasons to avoid a (any) revolver for serious personal defense.

The only reason I can kinda agree to using a revolver is failure to fire/dud round; yeah you can just pull the trigger again. However, the likelihood of that scenario is very slim, especially compared to the likelihood you’ll need more than 6-8 rounds on tap. How fast can you reload a revolver if you’re in a stressful situation? Simplicity under stress is paramount in a defensive situation, and the last thing I wanna be doing is fiddling with empty shells and speed loaders. Unless you’re Jerry Miculek, you’re better off with a very simple to use and reliable polymer framed pistol like a Glock or comparable.

I’d also recommend against a 1911 or similar for personal defense unless you’re highly trained. They’re like race cars; sure they can be run fast and are very accurate, but require more maintenance and skill to operate proficiently. And, I feel like safeties are liabilities on defense pistols; again, the fewer switches and buttons required for use, the better.

For defense, you want simple, reliable, and something you’re comfortable with. Really hard to beat a Glock or s&w m&p AND (very important) hours and hours of safe practice. The muscle memory programming required to run one of those well vs the other options is considerably less.

Every person and circumstance is different, but generally, simple is better.

Revolvers tend to be more reliable in function, and often less recoil for the absence of the slide slamming back with each round.

Proficiency with a speed-loader can make up for the reduced number of cartridges.

And the simplicity, especially for someone who's not accustomed to a more complicated firearm.

Specifically why my wife and daughter both prefer their revolvers.

 

[CavanalCannabis]

are you saying an autoloader is simpler than a revolver?

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-627. this revolver holds 8 rounds of 357.

the 1911 in stock configuration 45 acp holds 7.

no gunsmith will tell you that an autoloader is more simple mechanically than a revolver.

the polymer micro 9 is the rage right now for concealed carry and most of them carry 8-9 rounds.

FBI statistics show that in most personal defense shootings 3 rounds or less are fired.

knowing you might need to defend yourself and knowing you are going to a gunfight are 2 different things.

self-defense shootings are over in seconds and rarely is there a protracted gunfight.

i think paranoia comes into play with a lot of new shooters and they buy big powerful combat handguns because they assume it gives them an advantage.

then they go to the range and find out firing one is not as much fun as they thought and don't practice much.

or they find that an afternoon at the range is going to blow through a hundred bucks worth of ammo.

or they discover how hard it is to control a high-recoil weapon for follow-up shots.

Im not gonna split all the hairs discussing nuances of ‘what if’s’ or statistics. I’m experienced with both and for the vast majority of circumstances, most people will be better served with a 9mm polymer framed pistol and an extra mag vs a revolver and speed loaders, or even 2 revolvers (Cali reload). They’re just more ergonomic and safer to use than wheel guns.

Example: Take 10 (or 100, doesn’t matter) people of varying experience from brand new shooters to green berets and have them put 12 rounds into 3 separate targets under time/stress. I guarantee you every single one will perform better with a Glock (or whatever similar) than whatever revolver of choice; even if the glock mags are loaded to 6.

The “simplicity” of the mechanics are less of a factor or contributor to survivability than ergo/ease of use under stress.

This is my strong opinion which has been developed through 3 actual legitimate firearms instructor courses, being a firearms instructor for a bit, and having a good bit of experience with a variety of arms for a few decades. Ymmv.

 

[CavanalCannabis]

Again, for serious self defense in the streets or in the woods, it’s hard to imagine a scenario where it’s better to have a revolver over an auto loader. Better to have 30rds (2 mags) of 9mm heading down range at what’s attacking you than any caliber revolver slower to load and operate.

Hunting is different, but I’d still have a g19 with me in case; never know when you’ll run across some hungry wolves or something.

A good friend of mine shot his leg accidentally with an H&K 9 when he either decocked it or tried to ride the hammer down manually. Not a great feature or practice IMO. Again why I like striker fired plastic guns.

At the end of the day, the most important factor is training and skill set. Doesn’t matter what you carry as long as you’re good with it. Props to those who take it serious enough to have a say.

 

[Tynehead Tom]

the trick to the 1911 is keep it simple... the only upgrades done to my commanders besides premium fitted parts is an extended magazine release, a high ride beavertail, a one piece solid spring guide rod. Wolf Gunsprings throughout and novak sights. No extended slide stops or safeties, no ambidextrious junk..... just keep it simple. I've owned sigs and I always consider my 1911 to be my "one gun". It's a Dlask Arms custom and I love it

 

[CavanalCannabis]

Nice. Yeah I’m not saying I dislike wheel guns or 1911s; I appreciate them all and they each fill a niche. I love the classics. I just have many reasons to believe that for the common person, it’s really hard to beat a Glock or M&P for serious self defense. They’re among the absolute best tools for that role.

Once that need is met, by all means explore other options and have some fancy ones. But the one in my nightstand is a stock m&p 45 that I stippled with a surefire light, the truck gun is a G19 with whatever trigger Travis Haley collaborated with 7-8 years ago that uses factory Glock parts to “crisp” it up, not lighten it, and the carry is a g42 or 43, whichever is the 9mm single stack. Simple is good here.

These are tools that are quicker and easier to put into action under stress without missing a safety, and are much easier to reload with more rounds available.

Then there’s the rest of the collection.. I love them all, but some are serious tools, others require a little more specialized skill set, and some are just fun or historical. Key is to educate yourself, don’t break the safety rules, ever, and practice, a lot.

 

[moose eater]

Nice. Yeah I’m not saying I dislike wheel guns or 1911s; I appreciate them all and they each fill a niche. I love the classics. I just have many reasons to believe that for the common person, it’s really hard to beat a Glock or M&P for serious self defense. They’re among the absolute best tools for that role.

Once that need is met, by all means explore other options and have some fancy ones. But the one in my nightstand is a stock m&p 45 that I stippled with a surefire light, the truck gun is a G19 with whatever trigger Travis Haley collaborated with 7-8 years ago that uses factory Glock parts to “crisp” it up, not lighten it, and the carry is a g42 or 43, whichever is the 9mm single stack. Simple is good here.

These are tools that are quicker and easier to put into action under stress without missing a safety, and are much easier to reload with more rounds available.

Then there’s the rest of the collection.. I love them all, but some are serious tools, others require a little more specialized skill set, and some are just fun or historical. Key is to educate yourself, don’t break the safety rules, ever, and practice, a lot.

Shoot out on an Island in Prince William Sound about 3o years ago. Both participants drunk (go figger') and both hit roughly 15 to 20 times each. No exaggeration. Both parties lived to be medevacced off the Island on boards.

I fired sub-guns in 9mm for years (class III). If your objective is to wound an assailant, the 9mmis fine. A proper vital mass/organ shot is another matter, but never guaranteed.

If you want to stop what ever it is RIGHT NOW. The 9mm is a poor choice imo..

Used to have a number of 9's and .380s. No more, and all gone.

While steel frames and larger firearms can be a pain in the ass for carrying in a conventional IWB or similar holster, a shoulder harness with wider straps (similar to the Jackass/Miami Classics; custom built or factory) distributes that weight, and removes that lone obstacle that I've noted.

Not to mention that when driving, a shoulder rig is more readily accessible than a waist-carry.

 

[delta9nxs]

Nice. Yeah I’m not saying I dislike wheel guns or 1911s; I appreciate them all and they each fill a niche. I love the classics. I just have many reasons to believe that for the common person, it’s really hard to beat a Glock or M&P for serious self defense. They’re among the absolute best tools for that role.

Once that need is met, by all means explore other options and have some fancy ones. But the one in my nightstand is a stock m&p 45 that I stippled with a surefire light, the truck gun is a G19 with whatever trigger Travis Haley collaborated with 7-8 years ago that uses factory Glock parts to “crisp” it up, not lighten it, and the carry is a g42 or 43, whichever is the 9mm single stack. Simple is good here.

These are tools that are quicker and easier to put into action under stress without missing a safety, and are much easier to reload with more rounds available.

Then there’s the rest of the collection.. I love them all, but some are serious tools, others require a little more specialized skill set, and some are just fun or historical. Key is to educate yourself, don’t break the safety rules, ever, and practice, a lot.

 

[delta9nxs]

can you tell us how many times a month you practice and how much ammo you go through at these sessions to be as skilled and proficient as you are?

 

[CavanalCannabis]

I wouldn’t push pack on any of that too much. I agree there are calibers available many times more “effective” than 9, and admittedly I have not been current in all the latest and greatest stuff on the market. That’s why the M&P 45 with the surefire is the home protection, it’s got a bit more punch, and the one that’s most comfortable and trained with. I shoot it better than the Glocks by a little bit. But I like the compactness and additional rounds that come with 9mm. And with decent ammo, man I think the 9 should get the point across unless yeah you’re just spraying and praying like a thug.

I appreciate everyone’s point of view and contribution to the discussion, hopefully some knowledge is being conveyed to some who otherwise wouldn’t be exposed to this type of discussion among responsible and educated firearm enthusiasts.

 

[brickweeder]

my fav polymer-framed gun...

 

[CavanalCannabis]

can you tell us how many times a month you practice and how much ammo you go through at these sessions to be as skilled and proficient as you are?

Sure. I haven’t fired a round in years. I’m probably a bit rusty, no denying that.

But I dedicated much of my focus in early adulthood to this subject. Never kept track of rounds fired, maybe a few thousand? Again, I took some firearms instructor courses and taught some folks how to safely handle guns for a few years. Spent a lot of time on gun forums, and took the matter of self defense and having the right tool for the job very seriously.

I reached a level of proficiency and comfort in my “training”. I brush up here and there with dry fire practice and an air soft replica g19, but yeah it’s been awhile since I’ve shot a live round.

Just trying to share what i feel is good info that has helped me. I feel like I have some value to offer in this department compared to many. Not trying to one up or sound like the most experienced.

 

[mexweed]

you can 100% kill with a .22 quite easily in fact, in vietnam they were known as "hush puppies", they were also the gun of choice for hitmen operating indoors...I forget the documentary I saw where they said that it might have been the iceman or popeye

I had an uncle that committed suicide with one, if it can penetrate a skull it can easily sever arteries and would have no issue getting through ribs to pierce lungs or heart

if you shot your average street level thug/mugger with one like most people fantasize about with their handguns they would drop and cry/scream like a little bitch

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

The largest drawback to 9mm as a defense weapon is improper ammo. It's been many decades since the only rounds available were simple round nose and early hollowpoint designs. Look around and you'll see a lot of people who depend on stopping power, and are very satisfied with the stopping power of mid weight +P and heavier weight 9mm rounds.

Federal HST 147g
Winchester Ranger 124g +P
Speer Gold Dot 124g +P

 

[CavanalCannabis]

you can 100% kill with a .22 quite easily in fact, in vietnam they were known as "hush puppies", they were also the gun of choice for hitmen operating indoors...I forget the documentary I saw where they said that it might have been the iceman or popeye

I had an uncle that committed suicide with one, if it can penetrate a skull it can easily sever arteries and would have no issue getting through ribs to pierce lungs or heart

if you shot your average street level thug/mugger with one like most people fantasize about with their handguns they would drop and cry/scream like a little bitch

My grandmas brother was killed July 4, mid 1940s while camping. His friend was spinning a 22 revolver on his finger and it went off and shot him in the head. He was a junior in high school. Firearm safety is something everyone needs to know.

 

[delta9nxs]

sam giancana died in his kitchen cooking eggs. seven 22lr to the back of the head and nobody heard a thing.

22lr at close range from a short-barrelled gun does not have enough velocity to expand.

so with 22lr it's about penetration. and because it's so small one is not enough.

 

[moose eater]

Sure. I haven’t fired a round in years. I’m probably a bit rusty, no denying that.

But I dedicated much of my focus in early adulthood to this subject. Never kept track of rounds fired, maybe a few thousand? Again, I took some firearms instructor courses and taught some folks how to safely handle guns for a few years. Spent a lot of time on gun forums, and took the matter of self defense and having the right tool for the job very seriously.

I reached a level of proficiency and comfort in my “training”. I brush up here and there with dry fire practice and an air soft replica g19, but yeah it’s been awhile since I’ve shot a live round.

Just trying to share what i feel is good info that has helped me. I feel like I have some value to offer in this department compared to many. Not trying to one up or sound like the most experienced.

I once shot daily when I lived on the Tanana River 40 years ago..

Once upon a time in the 1980s, we'd get 1,000-rd. cases of West German-made Gecko (loaded hotter for blow-back sub-guns), and we were paying maybe $100 to $120/case then.

Back then, doing a spinning draw and drop on the river's ice with a Bianchi X15 vertical shoulder holster under a jacket, and the first version I owned of the Ruger Speed Six, .357, 2-3/4" (we've had 3 of them now; I like that gun that much), and could drop down from a standing position while spionning and extracting, facing 180 degrees off target, and hit a soda can 4 or 5 out of six shots at about 30-40 ft. Longer distance than many self-defense shoots.

Those days are so far gone, and I don't shoot regularly now. Not for years.

The loss of accuracy and familiarity matters.

Like doing a kata in martial arts; it needs to be daily engrained in the mind as to the next move, how it goes, etc. Reflexive stuff. Muscle and mind memory without necesarily needing to be from the conscious being. Engrained.

And even if a person regularly shoots, a target, versus a high-adrenaline moment, can take the best trained shooter, and have them hitting squat.

Regular practice, and control of the nerves and adrenaline.

Practice makes proficient, imo.

 

[armedoldhippy]

Not to mention that when driving, a shoulder rig is more readily accessible than a waist-carry.

there is a solution for this now. it is a horrible name, but there is a holster called the "CarJacker" on the market.

And even if a person regularly shoots, a target, versus a high-adrenaline moment, can take the best trained shooter,
and have them hitting squat.

been years back, but a bunch of county deputies thought they were "stinging" some drug dealers here on a big pot buy. but...the "drug dealers" were city cops that thought THEY were making a buy. over a dozen shots fired at close range in a well-lit parking lot by about 6 cops, and nobody got hurt. well, one undercover detectives ride had its windows blown out. fucking embarrassing...

 

[moose eater]

there is a solution for this now. it is a horrible name, but there is a holster called the "CarJacker" on the market.

been years back, but a bunch of county deputies thought they were "stinging" some drug dealers here on a big pot buy. but...the "drug dealers" were city cops that thought THEY were making a buy. over a dozen shots fired at close range in a well-lit parking lot by about 6 cops, and nobody got hurt. well, one undercover detectives ride had its windows blown out. fucking embarrassing...

15-20 years ago here, out on Sheep Creek Rd., 3 State Troopers opened up on a suicidal woman standing in her doorway with a handgun (never call cops to a suicidal situation; often accelerates the probability of either suicide or death by cop), and when the bullets stopped flying, out of the three of them shooting at relatively close range, she had a graze on her nose. That was it. Lucky.

One of the Troopers with a twisted sense of humor had gone into town to get her grub, and had come back with a Happy Meal. Literally. No bullshit.

And the Troopers qualify regularly with their sidearms. Makes you wonder about who's protecting who, and from what.

Is the carjacker the holster that straps to the steering column?

 

[luposolitario]

also the model 1911 is valid , especially in 38 s , whi kick less in the hands , more ammo,whit custom magazine sure is up 9 raunds more one , a safe thing are not put never all ammo insaide , more good one raund less than a jam .. maybe some have tell earli that , aniway polimer mhh if one not want smith w have option same valid by the famous gloc k plattaform to the beretta px storm , also the famous bulshit pistol kill cops fn five .. yep is polimer , have the pawerful laike a tokarev t .. have some valid and more ammo. i love guns . now not more possible have .. bitter law. cool talkimg abaut self defense whit more 150 grains eheh in itali are premeditate assasination..

 

[mexweed]