Prob'ly Headed to India or Thailand for Surgery

[moose eater]

Oh... I nearly forgot a key request I made to my wife: panted under a brightly flowering tree or shrub (natural to what ever region is pertinent), if it can be arranged....

After taking resources from the Giant Orb for decades, giving something back ought to be required. And ashes simply put back a bit of calcium, potassium, micro-nutrients, and such. Still seems somewhat selfish to me.. Being scattered in the wind, after leading a scattered nomadic life at times, with so few real roots, is nearly as discomforting as the thought of serious flames.

Natural burial puts back the whole array, from early break-down of nitrogen, on to the later stages of phosphorous, then all the rest. Seems a lot more considerate if the room for such things exists in the place a person happens to put up their final stakes.

 

[ghostmade]

Good to hear.my burial 0lans are the same.deep and cheap. And if on my own land plant stuff on me.

 

[moose eater]

I researched 'natural burial' last year, and it's accepted pretty much throughout North America, to include Canada. The greatest concern, other than any permits for transport, (which for 'natural burial' seem to require some form of refrigeration.. not likely available in rural N. India or rural N. Thailand), is relatively immediate planting in the ground, and some form of ownership or permissions pertaining to the plot you're cast into.. whether it be a cemetery plot, private land, etc.

Wanted to be buried in a specific village in the Yukon Territory initially, but the First Nations band there put an end to others sharing the cemetery they've come to control. The I checked out cemetery plots in Alaska, and nothing seemed like home; too damned urban in most cases.

So I guess it'll likely be a matter of 'where ever I drop.'

Though while planning ahead for contingencies has always been pretty big with me, and simultaneously provides for a functional outlet for obsessive compulsive tendencies, the whole thing seems a bit premature too..

Just always good to know where I'm going when I get up from the table...

Take care, and see you in PMs in the near future, I hope.

 

[Stoner4Life]

moose eater, make sure they don't auction off your eyes n' organs once they get you under sedation.

I wouldn't go anywhere without actual referrals.......

 

[moose eater]

Thanks Stoner4Life. Good advice whether new or not.

In reverse perspective, I'd already told my wife I'd like to know where organs I -might- one day receive come from, for similar purpose. Told her there are also likely some limits on -whose- organs I'd want to mingle body fluids with... prohibitionists, uber-tyrants, narrow-minded puritanical zealots, politicians, and those who still desired the use of their organs..

 

[moose eater]

Spoke with a local person the other day who had some medical tourism surgeries done for them in similar places the other day; some do's and don'ts came from it, as well as a reference to some specific outlets, both domestic and abroad..

Located one 'credible' brokerage that does insurance company contracts for med tourism, mostly as a matter of saving the insurance companies HUGE amounts of money, in exchange for a serious profit for what's saved.

Also came across the international version of the Joint Accreditation of Hospitals (actually their international arm), and need to clarify some terms, as well as asking some candid questions that someone is hopefully taken off-guard enough to answer without too awful much hesitation..

If I'm successful, I'll get rid of the scalpers, end up with a similar deal as what they would've gotten, and save the profit they would've taken.

Kinda' like hunting moose; taking one's time, be in the right place, keep one's eyes and ears open, and, if fortunate... voila! Things are slowly progressing.. for now... As is my post count, as it approaches the magic #50.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Best of luck with this. I wonder how you could get information online from people who have gone through the experience? Seems there would be a social forum somehow where people could share their stories. This must exist in some form somewhere.

 

[moose eater]

Thanks Crusader Rabbit.

Yes, there are some forms of review, to include 'Yelp!' and the clinics' own web sites.

I'm skeptical of the clinics' own web reviews, as many in the money world want to look better than they may be. Hell, most people want to look better than they really -may- be; a common human attribute, made worse by greed and sleight-of-hand sometimes.

Add to that the issue of many folks being 4 x's more likely to complain than to praise a given issue (we often complain more and louder than we compliment.. another human frailty...).

So I'm searching with serious attention, serious questions, etc. Asking someone 10,000-12,000 miles away from home to stick a sharp object in your back, in a country where serious numbers lack housing and running water, with the spine being second only to the brain, in terms of 'what makes this beast go,' certainly brings some potential nightmares to the mind of this particular skeptic and cynic, often realist... me.

But asking my family to endure the cost of $100,000, $200,000, or (???) in debt, when there -are- places where that same care, or better, might be had for $6,000-$7,000, plus the price of a plane ticket, and the post-op potential of seeing some of Naga's country up north, keeps the microscope turned on, and my ears and eyes open.

And thanks for your kind words and thoughts. Seriously.

There are many persons likely still here, of warm heart, soul, and mind, who likely no longer go by their names from way back. I have at times looked back fondly on some of those 'distant discussions' between like minds.

Take care.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

... and the post-op potential of seeing some of Naga's country up north, ...

With many surgeries it is best to get up and be active early. But I've been told that the best outcomes from spinal surgery are from those who take it real easy afterwards and don't push it. Traveling, especially in public transportation may not be the best thing for you. Sitting can actually be hurtful if it isn't just the right chair. Unfortunately I found this out the hard way. Sitting for too long in the wrong chairs, seriously and permanently compromised the results of my lumbar surgery.

 

[moose eater]

Sounds like it might be the perfect opportunity for a motor-powered rick-shaw affair, with a super comfy cot in the back..

That's an image I can truly enjoy in my mind's eye, as the bed-bearing 'motor coach' heads north toward the Nepalese border, my daughter sitting in the mid-seat, stethoscope around her neck, and me laying in a well-padded bed, enjoying the wares of the land.

Sounds like another pursuit on the internet, once I get the basics covered?

 

[moose eater]

Well, as of the news this morning, it appears many/some of the scalpers who engage in putting together Medical Tourism packages ONLY work with employers (not all orgs do this, but some/many), selling their services to employers as a form of alternative health care insurance or something.

And yes, Crusader Rabbit, from the bit of sleepless, mid-nite cruising on the web, to various spine surgery clinics and blogs, unlike other surgeries, they mandate relatively stationary position, with very little twisting or turning of the back in movement.

Just in day-to-day sleeping on an outdated, uncomfortable, 'firm' mattress, (and I've come to believe that only serious sadists would ever build a 'firm' mattress, and only serious masochists would ever -buy- one!!), I find myself repeatedly moving out of the pain of any one side of my body being on that side fro more than a little bit of time. A curse of sorts.

So I figure if they -do- end up with spinal surgery as the end-all option of necessity, then they're going to have to medicate me regularly, and probably have some large muscular folks turn me over like a shish-kabob on a relatively rigid back-board or something, because I can't fathom even rolling over in bed without causing fairly notable movement to the spine.

Sounding more and more like the way NOT to spend one's summer vacation...

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

After my four level lumbar surgery I wasn't allowed to drive a vehicle for at least a month. Standing and walking any distance was very taxing, especially standing in one place. I'd go out to walk with a cane and people would expect me to stop and have conversation, but I couldn't stand in one place.

 

[moose eater]

Thanks CR.

I'm likely (but not guaranteed yet by any means) looking at repairs to a lumbar injury involving multiple discs with relevant wear to the vertebrae there (over 2 decades in the making, with repeated re-injury over the years), and, more recently, a brand-spanking-new 'pop' and settling to come out of my thoracic region when curling weight I shouldn't have been, but which 20 years ago wouldn't have been any problem. Some of this was less-than-advisably put back into place by two post-injury adjustments, and the use of a device that suspends a person in an inverted state, which provided at least 2-3 noteworthy events of relocating vertebrae and/or discs to what (if the sensation of relief I had was any indicator) to a more beneficial or normal position.

The recent lack of coordination in my gait, going from smoothly rolling my feet out in walking, to slapping them onto hard surfaces like walking with swim fins or duck's feet, tells me that some place in the mix, my spinal cord should've bobbed when it weaved.

There are some other complicating factors, such as metabolic issues that respond with quizzical nature to input of SOME commonly used (though not all) anti-inflammatory meds often used in combination with Rx opiates, which are bound to be on the post-op pill menu..

Big Pharma has a way of getting you coming and going; trade one set of ills for another..

That said, and assuming both that I end up with what my crystal ball sees coming in the way of procedures (will know more solidly in 2 weeks), AND the folks I go to abroad are -willing- and -able- to do multiple procedures simultaneously (and I suspect in that corner of the world, once reviewing my bank book, they will be), how long would you estimate a person would be horizontal, with no or limited movement?

And what about the plane ride and airports coming home? Probably averaging 30 hours in the air and in airports.

Not to mention that this will be ONE trip over-seas wherein if Customs asks me to bend over for a cavity exam on my return flights, I'm apt to reply with, "Good luck with that. Almost wish I could oblige you."

 

[moose eater]

And at the point of return, following 'X' amount of time in post-op recovery in Country 'Y,' How is a wheel chair or sitting in a transport cart in the airport going to affect my recently assaulted back?

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

My two cents

Thanks CR.

I'm likely (but not guaranteed yet by any means) looking at repairs to a lumbar injury involving multiple discs with relevant wear to the vertebrae there (over 2 decades in the making, with repeated re-injury over the years),

My surgery was over twenty years ago. Like you I had multiple ruptured disks, eight total. They operated on the four lumbar disks. Since it was four in a row the surgeon flayed me like a fish to gain access. When done he folded the flesh back in place and stapled me closed. This resulted in a loss of most muscle strength in the lower back. The procedure was stae of the art for the time... microsurgery with the surgeon looking though a microscope. Discectomy -laminectomy, where they cut away some of the lamina (little wings of bone on each vertebra which meet and fit together to stabilize the spine) to gain access to the spinal cavity and protruded pulp. They remove the extruded pulp from the disc, but you're still left with the hole in the disc. That never heals shut. Sort of like changing the carpet because the water heater leaks, but not changing out the water heater.


and, more recently, a brand-spanking-new 'pop' and settling to come out of my thoracic region when curling weight I shouldn't have been, but which 20 years ago wouldn't have been any problem.

That 'pop' is a terrible feeling, especially when you know exactly what just happened. I have two herniated thoracic discs. The thoracic spine is narrower than the lumbar region so there's less room to work with. Twenty some years ago I was told that these discs were inoperable because there wasn't any room to work in there. With the newer techniques it might be possible now.


Some of this was less-than-advisably put back into place by two post-injury adjustments,

Ah, the chiropractor. At least before the surgery he gave me some temporary relief. But very temporary. He gave me a gratuitous neck adjustment which left me unable to work looking down at a flat surface. Computer screens absolutely must be at eye level and my chairs must have head support (can't ride in many buses). If I'm walking and have to look down at my foot placement I often have to support my chin with my hand.


and the use of a device that suspends a person in an inverted state, which provided at least 2-3 noteworthy events of relocating vertebrae and/or discs to what (if the sensation of relief I had was any indicator) to a more beneficial or normal position.

I can find relief by brachiating, hanging like an ape. Find or install a horizontal bar or a beam that you can reach by standing tip toe. Grab hold, then lower your heels until all your weight is on your arms. While doing this relax the lower back and let your body weight stretch the spine. It can be intimidating at first, but at any time you can put your toes back down to the ground to place the weight back on your legs. You also can use a block of 4 x 6 wood to stand on to reach the bar and then step off to hang. I sometimes wore a divers weight belt doing this to help with the spinal extension. If a thoracic disc is really acting up I can position a head harness on the bar which is used to stretch the cervical spine, and also brachiate simultaneously. If I get the two just right the offending disc will "pop' resulting in instantaneous relief.


The recent lack of coordination in my gait, going from smoothly rolling my feet out in walking, to slapping them onto hard surfaces like walking with swim fins or duck's feet, tells me that some place in the mix, my spinal cord should've bobbed when it weaved.

If you always have foot drop then definitely surgery is in the works. If it's been a long time though there's the possibility that the nerve is permanently damaged and surgery might not help.



That said, and assuming both that I end up with what my crystal ball sees coming in the way of procedures (will know more solidly in 2 weeks), AND the folks I go to abroad are -willing- and -able- to do multiple procedures simultaneously (and I suspect in that corner of the world, once reviewing my bank book, they will be), how long would you estimate a person would be horizontal, with no or limited movement?

We considered doing two cervical discs in the same session as the lumbar surgery but the lumbar is done face down while the cervical is done face up, and he didn't want to roll me over. A lot of this stuff is done now arthroscopically without having to slice you open. So the recovery time is significantly shorter with less damage to surrounding tissues. Heck, some places do this now with robots. It might be a whole different story. Maybe this will make it easier to do multiple procedures or maybe it makes it more complicated since each is its own incision.

With me, the fucking nurses woke me up before the anesthesia had worn off and stood me up out of bed so they could change the sheets. I started to pass out so they threw a pillow in a low back chair and sat me down against it with one nurse in my face telling me to fight to keep my eyes open while the other hurriedly changed the sheets. Then they stood me up again and laid me back down in the bed to sleep off the anesthesia. Had me up walking again the next day but did it carefully that time. Swing your legs out over the edge of the bed without twisting and carefully stand up. But you're just so weak and fragile. Everything has to be done so carefully.

I was told to begin doing stretching exercises, laying in bed and lift one leg at a time holding onto a belt looped over my foot. There are a number of moving parts which were cut and doing this helps prevent adhesions from forming where previously unjoined tissues which slid past one another can regrow together leaving you with impairment. I might have overdone some of the exercises. My chiropractor told me that I scared him sometimes because I pushed things so hard.

I expect that they'd want you to stay in a rehab unit for at least a week. This might be like a nice hotel in your situation. It may not be too expensive either because it doesn't require high paid doctors. Servants are common and cheap in India.


And what about the plane ride and airports coming home? Probably averaging 30 hours in the air and in airports.

This is intimidating. With newer arthroscopic surgeries it might not be so bad since they don't slice you open. But incisions need time to heal properly. Long term low level stress on healing tissues could cause rejoining tissues to separate. After I was well past the initial recovery I permanently lost strength and abilities by sitting in the wrong chairs too long. Every time I felt pain but tried to grin and bear it to get by just a little longer, I permanently lost some strength and ability. When you're by yourself there's just no excuse. But what do you do in an airplane? Or standing in an airport line? When you feel the pain you absolutely must do something about it. Get a firm shaped cloth covered foam lumbar support pad that you can place in any chair. Pillows are your best friend. You need something pushing against the small of your back when you sit to maintain that lumbar curvature. If nothing is pushing against the spine here then it will want to curve outward which pulls the tissues apart where the surgery was done. Losing the lumbar curve also places more weight upon the front portion of the discs which squeezes the inner disc pulp back towards the stressed incision where the original rupture took place. It makes a big difference if you can get up and walk around a bit during the flight. Do this often and before you feel that it must be done. If in a vehicle, make frequent stops just to get out and stretch and walk around a bit. Try to do these things before the pain tells you to do them.


Not to mention that this will be ONE trip over-seas wherein if Customs asks me to bend over for a cavity exam on my return flights, I'm apt to reply with, "Good luck with that. Almost wish I could oblige you."

I recommend that you purchase a glass eye and insert it before going through customs. It will liven up their day. And this way you can keep an eye on what they're doing down there.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

And at the point of return, following 'X' amount of time in post-op recovery in Country 'Y,' How is a wheel chair or sitting in a transport cart in the airport going to affect my recently assaulted back?

A transport cart is rather solid and shouldn't be a problem. Any wheelchair that can fold up will have a cloth back that offers no support. Don't go anywhere without that form fitted foam lumbar support pad. Then bring a couple good firm pillows also.

 

[moose eater]

Holy shit, CR!! If you were a Doc in Alaska, I'd already owe you at least a grand for that last couple of posts!! Thanks! Seriously.

I've read they're using artificial discs now in some surgeries; some made of Kevlar. I guess in the event they use that, they would remove the damaged disc tissue you spoke of? Or just leave a tiny part of my spine as 'bullet-proof.'

I sent another reply to your PM, and included the unfortunate reality that there appear to now be middle-men scalpers on that side of the world too. I just got a reply from an outlet over there this evening, with promises of quotes for the procedures, as well as length of stay in India for recovery, and they haven't even seen my MRIs yet!!

I replied asking them exactly what their credentials were, and asked if they were dealing strictly with a JCI-accredited facility. We'll see how far this goes, read what ever responses they send, and use those to gauge whether or not I need to read or reply to any more of their efforts.

In light of such correspondence from folks like those referenced immediately above, I'm starting to feel a little bit like the last piece of deep-fried halibut on a plate headed for the dish washer. YIKES!!

As for the 'foot drop' as you referred to it, this is only about a month old now (+/-), beginning shortly after the lower back injury. The thoracic injury initially didn't have such dramatic effects. When the thoracic 'pop' occurred, there was no pain what so ever. A week or so later (+/-) I put the lower back out (possibly from what I termed 'slack in the chain' caused by the thoracic injury earlier on), but this time the disjointing of the alignment in the lower back seemed to travel notably further; like it slipped off its base in discernible ways. Quite the sensation, I'll add. I assume that's when the spinal cord should've bobbed instead of weaving; further movement meant more contact between the vertebrae or disc and the nerve, is my best guess..

I'll keep a copy of important notes from your very generous and thoughtful words above... And hope I don't have the same two nurses you had. ;^)

If possible, my daughter will fly with me and stay there for up to three weeks. (Probably just guilt-tripping me with love and kindness for any harsh words I sent her way when she was a cute little kid, whether the harsh words were real or perceived.) I suspect if she sees some sort of 'improper handling' going on she'll turn into Ninja Daughter, and either get us both booted, or end up in an Indian jail.. 'Bout time she got more worldly anyway, I guess..

Thanks again, man.

 

[moose eater]

Figured I'd add, in fact-based humor, that I'm now over 2-1/2" (almost 3") shorter than I was 30 years ago. I believe that some of it is a result of missing tissue from my knees, & some of it is relative to the fact that gravity constantly wears on us every waking vertical hour of every day, when we're not horizontal. But some of it belongs to that popping sound in my back, and the repeated lower back injuries, too.

My guess is the surgeons aren't going to give that back to me, are they?

Too bad platform shoes went out with the 80s...

I keep telling my wife, "I want my money back." My youngest son asked, "What money?" I smiled and told him it's a form of joke, having to do with warranties on parts, and filing a complaint with the Metaphysical Powers That Be for poor workmanship in the manufacturing process.

Neither of the thinks I'll get much satisfaction from that particular complaint process though..

 

[bombadil.360]

Hello moose! I remember you and Naga Sadu from 2006-2007 give or take... I was under a different screenname (pazverderadical).

Sorry to hear of your physical injuries, I do hope you get sorted out in a good place by a good doctor soon!

it is crazy how expensive it is to deal with one's body, and as you noted, how fragile the body's design really is; I have a few friends who are doctors and they are always amazed about how can we even live hehehe... but complaining to the "metaphysical powers that be" about the quality of the body is useless, as there never was a warranty to begin with no one told us: "this body you'll get is the best, it never gets sick or breaks!" on the contrary, actually.

anyway, finding quality medical service is quite a task, as most doctors are actually under qualified to do many of the things they claim they can do... this goes for every profession though... remember that money is just money and health is priceless; if you can manage to get a loan and pay it slowly for 10 years to get that surgery in the ideal place with the ideal surgeon, you should really consider it.

hope you find a proper solution soon,

much peace and good health to you and yours!

 

[Andyo]

thailand hospital,spinal surgery

thailand hospital,spinal surgery

https://www.bumrungrad.com/en/institute-spine-surgery-bangkok-thailand
I live thailand ive been to this hospital they probably the best .

As for after care ,the hospital website has hotels/rooms near listed.A