Research phytochrome and Pr 660 nm and Pfr 730 nm. Cannabis is a short day flowering plant, except for autoflowers which are day neutral. When you understand why plants flower, you'll find your answer.
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preventing early spring flowering with clones
- Thread starter The Iceman
- Start date
G
Guest
Hi all,
I agree MR. C
Cannabinafil, the reason I use 24 hrs for cloning is because they clone so much quicker and I believe if you put them on normal lighting as soon as they display roots, theres no real harm. You certainly could clone them under that 15 hr light scheme but it would take maybe a week or so longer to get roots and I always seem constrainded for time as it is during that part of the season. Its hard to get plants started and big enough to take clones from and then get the clones ready by at least mid may. That's a lot of work in a short window and to clone on that time frame would drag things out.
I agree MR. C
Cannabinafil, the reason I use 24 hrs for cloning is because they clone so much quicker and I believe if you put them on normal lighting as soon as they display roots, theres no real harm. You certainly could clone them under that 15 hr light scheme but it would take maybe a week or so longer to get roots and I always seem constrainded for time as it is during that part of the season. Its hard to get plants started and big enough to take clones from and then get the clones ready by at least mid may. That's a lot of work in a short window and to clone on that time frame would drag things out.
Fast_Pine
Member
I cant take it any more...Ive been lurking all winter, but I cant take it any more....this is too important too pass up, and now the discussion has gone past my understanding...Plus I feel I MUST share my experiences.
I too have been plagued by early flowering clones, some years it has made my whole season a bust...Came to realize that this issue is EXTREEMLY IMPORTANT, and only gets more sensitive when you use early outdoor style strains, like I do. you know, photosensitive strains, those trigger early every time for me..
The solution:
Last year, I started my seeds on 15/9(indoors, January....see grow thread, link in signature)....They preflowered a fiew weeks later, I culled the males, and kept the mother plants in the same 15/9 photoperiod. Took clones mid may, transplanted outdoors early June, with no early flowering...The clones stayed in vegetative state through the transplant phase due to the fact that I matched the hours of light to the day of transplant...As far as photoperiod, the plant doesent know weather its inside under a MH, or outside on june 5th, ya know...
15/9 vs 24/0:
Silverback, I agree with yer statement in the sluggish growth of a 15/9 lightschedule...It took noticibly longer to grow and root my outdoor moms, and clones, as versus when I do indoor runs under 24/0...After having so many different experiences with this early flower tendency, im waaaaay too scared to chance a crop of clones rooted under 24, and transfered to 15...My past experirnces have led me to believe that they will guaranteed flower, indoor, outdoor, or green house, ,,,,go from a 24/0 mother, and transfer her clones down to 15/9 and there gonna bloom(or at least start to), no doubt about it,,,,Just because you cut the branch off the mother plant doesent mean you automaticly erase its memory.
..Specially with the indica doms, and the earlys.....now maby the more sativa plants, are a different story....Every year, back when I was trying the 24/0 thing with my cutts, the sativa dominant plants would transfer photoperiods just fine..
The test:
This year I am doing a test....I have alot of new strains that are curently under 24/0 from trades, and my winter indoor run....I am dying to try these outside, so im gonna attempt to simply throw these cuts in my 15/9 room with all my seedlings. I am expecting them to start growing more slowly, and start preflowering heavy, for roughly 2-3weeks.(same as they would if I tried to plant em outside on May 20th)...Next, im hoping they will slowly start to reveg, and fall in synch with the new photoperiod. I will veg them out, and clone off them along with my other mothers.. I am trying to make up for the slow growth during the 15/9photoperiod, in volume, heavy co2 enrichment, and an early start indoors...
Light intensity:
Butte, You made refrence to light intensity, and its correlation too holding a plant in veg...I have a thought on this....In previous years, ive started plants under shoplights, just simple floro's...really weak light. They stayed in veg for quite a wile, and transfered to the guerilla patch just fine....Out there in cali, yall get some nice sun, so it really shouldnt have mattered weather you had em in trees or not, that sun was alot more intense than my shoplights..I cant understand why your clones bloomed on you
Can you expound on your theory.
Only ways I know to work with/around early flowering in outdoor clone transplants:
-Plant seed directly into the outdoor patch.
-Veg large plants indoor, all summer, an put them out in the fall, to bloom.
-Start seedlings or clones early in a cold frame, hot house, or green house, with artificial light.
-15/9 from start with motherplants.
-Plant very sativa dominant strains
-bring in plants at night to a lit shed, barn, ware house, or garage..
....................................................................................................
I am very glad this issue is being discussed, it is in my eyes one of the most important factors in outdoor growing with clones, goes hand in hand with strain selection...
A week or two after the transplant, and veggin away. Sweet Purple..
I too have been plagued by early flowering clones, some years it has made my whole season a bust...Came to realize that this issue is EXTREEMLY IMPORTANT, and only gets more sensitive when you use early outdoor style strains, like I do. you know, photosensitive strains, those trigger early every time for me..
The solution:
Last year, I started my seeds on 15/9(indoors, January....see grow thread, link in signature)....They preflowered a fiew weeks later, I culled the males, and kept the mother plants in the same 15/9 photoperiod. Took clones mid may, transplanted outdoors early June, with no early flowering...The clones stayed in vegetative state through the transplant phase due to the fact that I matched the hours of light to the day of transplant...As far as photoperiod, the plant doesent know weather its inside under a MH, or outside on june 5th, ya know...
15/9 vs 24/0:
Silverback, I agree with yer statement in the sluggish growth of a 15/9 lightschedule...It took noticibly longer to grow and root my outdoor moms, and clones, as versus when I do indoor runs under 24/0...After having so many different experiences with this early flower tendency, im waaaaay too scared to chance a crop of clones rooted under 24, and transfered to 15...My past experirnces have led me to believe that they will guaranteed flower, indoor, outdoor, or green house, ,,,,go from a 24/0 mother, and transfer her clones down to 15/9 and there gonna bloom(or at least start to), no doubt about it,,,,Just because you cut the branch off the mother plant doesent mean you automaticly erase its memory.
..Specially with the indica doms, and the earlys.....now maby the more sativa plants, are a different story....Every year, back when I was trying the 24/0 thing with my cutts, the sativa dominant plants would transfer photoperiods just fine..The test:
This year I am doing a test....I have alot of new strains that are curently under 24/0 from trades, and my winter indoor run....I am dying to try these outside, so im gonna attempt to simply throw these cuts in my 15/9 room with all my seedlings. I am expecting them to start growing more slowly, and start preflowering heavy, for roughly 2-3weeks.(same as they would if I tried to plant em outside on May 20th)...Next, im hoping they will slowly start to reveg, and fall in synch with the new photoperiod. I will veg them out, and clone off them along with my other mothers.. I am trying to make up for the slow growth during the 15/9photoperiod, in volume, heavy co2 enrichment, and an early start indoors...
Light intensity:
Butte, You made refrence to light intensity, and its correlation too holding a plant in veg...I have a thought on this....In previous years, ive started plants under shoplights, just simple floro's...really weak light. They stayed in veg for quite a wile, and transfered to the guerilla patch just fine....Out there in cali, yall get some nice sun, so it really shouldnt have mattered weather you had em in trees or not, that sun was alot more intense than my shoplights..I cant understand why your clones bloomed on you
Can you expound on your theory.
Only ways I know to work with/around early flowering in outdoor clone transplants:
-Plant seed directly into the outdoor patch.
-Veg large plants indoor, all summer, an put them out in the fall, to bloom.
-Start seedlings or clones early in a cold frame, hot house, or green house, with artificial light.
-15/9 from start with motherplants.
-Plant very sativa dominant strains
-bring in plants at night to a lit shed, barn, ware house, or garage..
....................................................................................................
I am very glad this issue is being discussed, it is in my eyes one of the most important factors in outdoor growing with clones, goes hand in hand with strain selection...
A week or two after the transplant, and veggin away. Sweet Purple..
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Cannabinofil
Member
Silverback, clones root in 8 to 16 days with 95%succes in the cloning box I built, under 18/6 useing peat pellets .
I understand your point however, but have you given the thought that plants (and I believe clones) transfer cell explosion(green growth then root growth) from above soil(day time) to below(during said 6hrs) therefor root development would occure faster under 18/6 or even 20/4 ... unless you find it cumbersome to heat the cloning area in, would be dark period, or have had blatant diferent results, or simply find it simpler, then it's all good ... it's all good any way
...
Were in the heart of it yur right LoL !!! I just bought 100 rooted clones 2weeks ago to supplement my already rooted 95 clones ... in fact they just finished root training in their 4"pots and I transplanted them in 3 and 5 gal pails to mother them up ...
get set, GROWWWWW
Thank you Fast_pine for sharing yur experiences with us .... that clones might not forget their mom photoperod memory is absolutly possible ... and thus they may trigger from a 24/0 mom to a 15/9 cloning schedual. beeing under a 18/6, and unwilling to subject all my to be moms to a reduced photoperiod from fear THEY might trigger ... I will pray that the diference between 18/6 and 15/9 will not be a triggering factor, given the hormonal scufafull and all the work that lays ahead for them.
We'll do the 15/9 experiment together brother ... god I hope this will work!
I understand your point however, but have you given the thought that plants (and I believe clones) transfer cell explosion(green growth then root growth) from above soil(day time) to below(during said 6hrs) therefor root development would occure faster under 18/6 or even 20/4 ... unless you find it cumbersome to heat the cloning area in, would be dark period, or have had blatant diferent results, or simply find it simpler, then it's all good ... it's all good any way
... Were in the heart of it yur right LoL !!! I just bought 100 rooted clones 2weeks ago to supplement my already rooted 95 clones ... in fact they just finished root training in their 4"pots and I transplanted them in 3 and 5 gal pails to mother them up ...
get set, GROWWWWW
Thank you Fast_pine for sharing yur experiences with us .... that clones might not forget their mom photoperod memory is absolutly possible ... and thus they may trigger from a 24/0 mom to a 15/9 cloning schedual. beeing under a 18/6, and unwilling to subject all my to be moms to a reduced photoperiod from fear THEY might trigger ... I will pray that the diference between 18/6 and 15/9 will not be a triggering factor, given the hormonal scufafull and all the work that lays ahead for them.
We'll do the 15/9 experiment together brother ... god I hope this will work!
Colt122
Member
Im going 15/9 as well from what I have read and experienced, it seems like its worth a shot, Im hoping to reveg and clone by the end of may. Good reading 
This is a big deal, summer only comes once, I have no experience with autoflowing plants...But I know this was my biggest problem to overcome, why hasnt anyone figured this out yet?
This is a big deal, summer only comes once, I have no experience with autoflowing plants...But I know this was my biggest problem to overcome, why hasnt anyone figured this out yet?
Cannabinofil
Member
Colt122 said:Im going 15/9 as well from what I have read and experienced, it seems like its worth a shot, Im hoping to reveg and clone by the end of may. Good reading
This is a big deal, summer only comes once, I have no experience with autoflowing plants...But I know this was my biggest problem to overcome, why hasnt anyone figured this out yet?
Did you know Colt122, that revedged plants only produce half the yeild they previously gave? I wonder if clones of a revedged plant(that has gone through a full flowering season) will be geneticaly "sound" for production ... this comment is only ment as a heads up, not a critic though ...
This IS a big deal !! Agreed ... our findings from diferent latitudes of earth will give a broad spectrum of efficiency, given that the results are only to prevent preflower, final yeild and techniks of gardening matter not ... except if one of you likes to defecate and/or urinate on yur girls-->wich is wrong ...
I thank the Iceman for bringing the subject up, as within my 4000+ post on OG , 3000+ on AN and then my 60+posts here
I never brought it up, nor have I read the subject anywhere ... very pertinent man. We are making history men !!!
Colt122
Member
quote:
Did you know Colt122, that revedged plants only produce half the yeild they previously gave? I wonder if clones of a revedged plant(that has gone through a full flowering season) will be geneticaly "sound" for production ... this comment is only ment as a heads up, not a critic though ...
Thanx for the reminder, I did read that the yeild will drop, I have limited seed, and enough time to breed more seed and or clone. Revegging is back-up for cash not genetics, I remember the days when my veg room was big enough to take only the main top for a clone, 3 clones per plant, basically every mainbranch top was used for clones....Sweet yeilds I must say....
Well Im thinking this one threw many times over, thanx
I do know alot of early strains were developed here in Manitoba, which should hold good in my favour! Im intrested in seeing how the GG does in my Burlab bags with outdoor#4 soilmix.
Did you know Colt122, that revedged plants only produce half the yeild they previously gave? I wonder if clones of a revedged plant(that has gone through a full flowering season) will be geneticaly "sound" for production ... this comment is only ment as a heads up, not a critic though ...
Thanx for the reminder, I did read that the yeild will drop, I have limited seed, and enough time to breed more seed and or clone. Revegging is back-up for cash not genetics, I remember the days when my veg room was big enough to take only the main top for a clone, 3 clones per plant, basically every mainbranch top was used for clones....Sweet yeilds I must say....
Well Im thinking this one threw many times over, thanx
I do know alot of early strains were developed here in Manitoba, which should hold good in my favour! Im intrested in seeing how the GG does in my Burlab bags with outdoor#4 soilmix.
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Please cite evidence to this. I personally believe you're wrong, but am humble enough to admit if I'm wrong, so please prove this to me.
Cannabinofil
Member
Anytime Colt122 ...
Mr Celsius, dont take my word for it, there is no better proof than experience(i.e.:that's why I'll make a leap of faith with my babys with 15/9, and other will too, for example), try it out your self and witness how things grow, I invite you to try several strains of many phenos to behold the veracity of what I bring forth ..
Please PM me futher inquieries that differ from the title of the thread in wich we might incounter.
I apologies to The Iceman, I never ment to high jack his thread, lets all please stay on the subject at hand, a very important one if anyone asked me
Mr Celsius, dont take my word for it, there is no better proof than experience(i.e.:that's why I'll make a leap of faith with my babys with 15/9, and other will too, for example), try it out your self and witness how things grow, I invite you to try several strains of many phenos to behold the veracity of what I bring forth ..
Please PM me futher inquieries that differ from the title of the thread in wich we might incounter.
I apologies to The Iceman, I never ment to high jack his thread, lets all please stay on the subject at hand, a very important one if anyone asked me
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Fast_Pine
Member
How true...there isnt any info on this subject in any of the published grow books avalible, and this is the first formal thread ive seen on the topic...The topic was so important it brought me out of hiding...Cannabinofil said:We are making history men !!!
I cant understand why this topic is just getting adressed now?
Guys have been planting clones outside for years now, and there hasnt been any legitimate decision on what to do..............I think we should come to some kind of consensus, a rule of thumb,,,,
Maby we can all decide on a viable option, and make that the recommended standard.
Seems many of us agree that matching the native light cycle to your mother's is the way to go
.....Maby a poll is inorder?
I personally think this thread needs to be put in the sticky section...
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Cannabinofil
Member
Just to anser your question about aspirin spraying, no it will not prevent any spores from taking(mold, likely talking of PM), but it will produce male flowers on a sensemilla plant ...The Iceman said:
However, the pollen from those sacs applied onto an other sensemilla plant will yeild 100% female seeds ... a secret from the cannabis breeding world ...
Spraying a solution of baking soda and water is a good way to get ride of powdery mildew on affected clones and vedging plants, by bringing the PH of the leaf surface above 7, where spores die and cannot misciliate(live)...
A poll would be informative ! enough mature people on these boards to get actual ansers ... great suggestion Fast_Pine, and I agree with the stiky so others may have the opportunity to see our results and take advantage of them wheather it works in our favor or not, either way, it does
Colt122
Member
I understand there is alot of breeders using the asprin method with good success, Ive opted for a colloidal silver generator
I dont use it more than once on a strain, and its only to preserve the genetics, better than flicking your lights off and on to produce a hermie which again I stay clear of,lol.
I find most info out there related outdoor growing, when tried in my area does not work
. I prefer sativa over Indica... but do some reading and one is convinced indica will work better in my area, not true IMO but times are changing.
Fact is most seed companies dont know how the seeds will turn out for you in your area, every plant is a outdoor plant somewere. We need to nail this one down.
So we have light hours and Nutes...
we all agree they will trigger flowering
revegging and loosing weight(we can assume isnt good)
Light intensity(lumens) has no effect? Im not all there on that one yet.
What about Phosphorus in the light? outside and in, clear bulbs versus coated?
Im tossing things around here.......
I dont use it more than once on a strain, and its only to preserve the genetics, better than flicking your lights off and on to produce a hermie which again I stay clear of,lol.
I find most info out there related outdoor growing, when tried in my area does not work
. I prefer sativa over Indica... but do some reading and one is convinced indica will work better in my area, not true IMO but times are changing.Fact is most seed companies dont know how the seeds will turn out for you in your area, every plant is a outdoor plant somewere. We need to nail this one down.
So we have light hours and Nutes...
we all agree they will trigger flowering
revegging and loosing weight(we can assume isnt good)
Light intensity(lumens) has no effect? Im not all there on that one yet.
What about Phosphorus in the light? outside and in, clear bulbs versus coated?
Im tossing things around here.......
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Cannabinofil
Member
I'll be useing T5's as a light source for the clones, blue spectrum action baby!
although I must admit, I think I found a solution to keep my girls in vedge after transplant for my senario. By cheating
You see, I have a greenhouse available to me for the season but there is no power on the property. However I remembered that with a truk battery + an inverter and a wall plug(outlet), I can keep the photo period, like "Butte", with them incadecent swirly light bulbs, even get my sulfer burner going(yey) ... yep, I'm gonna have to do it this way men ... although i'll still do a tray's worth of clones at 15/9 as well so I dont let you guys down ...
BTW I'll be doing the old flipidy flop method and try to harvest twice in the same beds ... --> plant root trained clones mid May, vedge for 3 weeks then "flipidy" every 12hrs, harvest 1st week of August, transplant root trained clones again then, without the flipidy flopin', harvest 2nd crop(in the same beds) mid October ... 2 full crops(of indoor genetiks btw) in the same beds, sea of green style all the way ...
although I must admit, I think I found a solution to keep my girls in vedge after transplant for my senario. By cheating
You see, I have a greenhouse available to me for the season but there is no power on the property. However I remembered that with a truk battery + an inverter and a wall plug(outlet), I can keep the photo period, like "Butte", with them incadecent swirly light bulbs, even get my sulfer burner going(yey) ... yep, I'm gonna have to do it this way men ... although i'll still do a tray's worth of clones at 15/9 as well so I dont let you guys down ...
BTW I'll be doing the old flipidy flop method and try to harvest twice in the same beds ... --> plant root trained clones mid May, vedge for 3 weeks then "flipidy" every 12hrs, harvest 1st week of August, transplant root trained clones again then, without the flipidy flopin', harvest 2nd crop(in the same beds) mid October ... 2 full crops(of indoor genetiks btw) in the same beds, sea of green style all the way ...
Cannabinofil said:I'll be useing T5's as a light source for the clones, blue spectrum action baby!
although I must admit, I think I found a solution to keep my girls in vedge after transplant for my senario. By cheating
You see, I have a greenhouse available to me for the season but there is no power on the property. However I remembered that with a truk battery + an inverter and a wall plug(outlet), I can keep the photo period, like "Butte", with them incadecent swirly light bulbs, even get my sulfer burner going(yey) ... yep, I'm gonna have to do it this way men ... although i'll still do a tray's worth of clones at 15/9 as well so I dont let you guys down ...
BTW I'll be doing the old flipidy flop method and try to harvest twice in the same beds ... --> plant root trained clones mid May, vedge for 3 weeks then "flipidy" every 12hrs, harvest 1st week of August, transplant root trained clones again then, without the flipidy flopin', harvest 2nd crop(in the same beds) mid October ... 2 full crops(of indoor genetiks btw) in the same beds, sea of green style all the way ...
That is kind of like what we did last year-- Took clones Jan 1st, vegged indoors...put them outside April 1st...they started flowering within 2 weeks....harvest in july (ish)...same day, stick the next batch out for another crop in late Oct--
Cannabinofil
Member
kmk420kali said:
aaaaaahhhhh ... to live on that latitude must be bliss
G
Guest
This is a good discussion and timely. My activity begins very soon.
Fast Pine, I couldnt agreee more with your conclusion that the earlier flowerers are more touchy and consistency becomes more important. I really only grow indica's so I don't know how sativa's behave, but photo period sensitve plants are Photo period sensitive during cloning as well in my view. I can tell youve been studying this for a while.
Cannabinofil, thats a good rate on the clones, youll have to post up your contraption.
It's my view that often, growers create difficulties for themselves by starting plants far too early indoors. Its often used to get larger plants but the better approach there would be to get a strain the grows larger or plant more plants, but trying to veg plants indoors for months before planting them outdoors is difficult for even the most seasoned grower growing a strain they know well. There are only 2 legitimate reasons to start so early in my opinion. 1. To get mothers for your clones. 2. To pregrow plants that you intend to flower as soon as they hit the door.
I also believe the clones to be more sensitive comming from a mother that is older. I have a buddy that has had a mother for 4 years and the clones will flower at the drop of a hat..
Fast Pine, I couldnt agreee more with your conclusion that the earlier flowerers are more touchy and consistency becomes more important. I really only grow indica's so I don't know how sativa's behave, but photo period sensitve plants are Photo period sensitive during cloning as well in my view. I can tell youve been studying this for a while.
Cannabinofil, thats a good rate on the clones, youll have to post up your contraption.
It's my view that often, growers create difficulties for themselves by starting plants far too early indoors. Its often used to get larger plants but the better approach there would be to get a strain the grows larger or plant more plants, but trying to veg plants indoors for months before planting them outdoors is difficult for even the most seasoned grower growing a strain they know well. There are only 2 legitimate reasons to start so early in my opinion. 1. To get mothers for your clones. 2. To pregrow plants that you intend to flower as soon as they hit the door.
I also believe the clones to be more sensitive comming from a mother that is older. I have a buddy that has had a mother for 4 years and the clones will flower at the drop of a hat..
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Cannabinofil
Member
silverback said:
the box oi just a sheet of plywood cut to put together, 4' wide 3'high 2'deep, aproximatly(I'm to tired to look for the tape measurer) , 2x2's at the inside corners to put things together n' for strenth ... put a pair of hinges and voila! open/close ... to easy
I've often notice that an indoor genetik will retain it's propertys(or strengthen them) while grown in umptimum indoor environments, there explaining the "drop of the hat" effect at the 12/12 trigger(especialy indica strong hybrids) ... your anologie of the "eagger gardner" may be correct as well ... especially as a "roaming condition"(we all get it sometimes(comes'n goes)) within us all lol ...
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ganjajudge
New member
Hi, I am about to start my seeds indoors to prepare them for outdoors in new england and this thread intrigued me. I would like to possibly try both diff. light cycles on 2 diff. batches of plants with the intentions of getting a smaller, quicker harvest at the end of june and a larger, longer harvest at the beginning of oct.... so what i would do is 4 weeks under 24/0 then transplant half outside, then gradually switch to 16/8 during the next week or two then put those plants outside... first batch would start flowering and be done 60 days later at the end of june and the second batch wouldnt flower until aug.............................................................................................................im not sure tho. do you guys think this would work? will it only preflower for a month and reveg when it hits 15 hours of light at the end of may? is this unanswerable because its strain dependent? if so, what strains will continue blooming and finish under 14.5-16.5 hours of light?
