Population ...the ticking time bomb!

[BullDogUK]

+ rep for Why we Fight, utterly fantastic documentary

I'd also recommend The Power of Nightmares by Adam Curtis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAGjQm8VJHc

Obviously it's all extrapolation, but it's damn scary when you consider the world we live in today.

Anyways, overpopulation! Seriously, I nearly had an aneurysm upon seeing that some consider it a non-issue or a fraud. It's no so much an issue of physical space as thankfully we can build multiple storied buildings (who would've known!) and as for food, I'm actually fairly confident we can apply similar concepts to food production (indoor growing, anyone? ) along with other advances in technology/science to increase output/km^2. The real problems are:
What if this continues? The rate at which the population doubles is increasing.

What happens when these new generations grow up? Can we find jobs for them all? Can we provide meaningful, satisfying lives for 10 billion? What about 15 billion? It's well and good having food and space but I wouldn't call the people in concentration camps happy.

What happens when the developing nations, where most of these 'new' people are, start to develop? We cannot possibly provide a western lifestyle for an additional 4 billion people.

How do we get rid of pollution? I don't just mean energy production waste, what about physical human waste? How do we stop it, and the other traditional wastes from foods to all the things we throw away, from poisoning our water supplies or the land around us?

And most important of all. What the fuck are we going to do when the oil runs out [or becomes too scarce for commercial use]? Oil isn't just the basis of power production; many medicines, plastics, fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides, resins, epoxies, beauty products etc. etc. etc. etc. contain some form of hydrocarbons generated from oil products. American agriculture uses an estimated 400 gallons of oil to feed each citizen annually and I dread to imagine what that figure is like in places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt where desert is being converted to arable land...

Anyway more stats here: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100303_eating_oil.html

 

[xmobotx]

Oil isn't just the basis of power production; many medicines, plastics, fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides, resins, epoxies, beauty products etc.

you sound like a shill for the oil co

interesting here we are on a canna site and you dont seem to realize that canna can replace all those things

maybe stop by the organic section and see how miscellaneous plants can be used to replace your ferts/pesticides/fungicides ~personally I wont use those kinds of {oil-based} grow techs anyway

i wonder too if you are oblivious to how many people in the world already make do without any of that anyway or are you also unaware that oil is a newcomer to human society which functioned for millennia w/o it already

Anyway; from the sound of your post it seems like the 'problem' would eventually solve itself no?

western standard of living ~phfft

i wonder how ivory tower types think the homeless are surviving? ~things being what they are or FTM; in the 1600s or ??? for instance? ~maybe so-called 3rd world countries?

what about all the cultures displaced or eradicated by the oil industry ~how about those villages who no longer have potable water since their only well is now polluted by the same

there is way more to the picture than meets the eye

and scarcity models are typically fear-mongering just as already pointed out including this particular scarcity model

 

[BullDogUK]

i wonder too if you are oblivious to how many people in the world already make do without any of that anyway or are you also unaware that oil is a newcomer to human society which functioned for millennia w/o it already

Whether you like it or not, hydrocarbon based products are essential to pretty much every modern industry. I'm not saying this has to be the case and I'm all for changing this. I'm well aware of the astounding properties of hemp thus my involvement on this forum and in the cannabis community.

Anyway; from the sound of your post it seems like the 'problem' would eventually solve itself no?

Yes, and I am seriously worried about what is going to happen given the current trajectory of the world.

i wonder how ivory tower types think the homeless are surviving? ~things being what they are or FTM; in the 1600s or ??? for instance? ~maybe so-called 3rd world countries?

Very badly. Frankly I'd rather not die from having rotten teeth or living in a shack and I don't think any one else in the world really does either, which is why we've striven to improve our living conditions through the use of science and technology.

what about all the cultures displaced or eradicated by the oil industry ~how about those villages who no longer have potable water since their only well is now polluted by the same

Yes, it's fucking awful mate, I'm not going to deny that. The damage that the oil industry has done both in the developing world and in the developed world (see the recent oil pipeline leaks in the US) and it's a disgrace that in a 'civilized' world we allow those with money to shit over the environment, the government (who unwittingly/willingly find themselves supporting these sectors to keep their fat juicy paychecks coming).

there is way more to the picture than meets the eye

and scarcity models are typically fear-mongering just as already pointed out including this particular scarcity model

I'm sorry but that is just plain wrong. Agriculture has claimed some 40% of the arable land worldwide. That is all the good land. What is left is either unsuitable for agricultural use or would mean unacceptable destruction of the planet's biosphere. I don't think you understand that big industries have invested untold billions/trillions into infrastructure and technologies that rely almost solely on fossil fuels to function. It's all well and good saying that we can change that and I completely agree that we need to, but in a 'capitalist' (not really but hey) society like ours, you can't justify simply dropping those sorts of investments, equally the investments required to change the systems in place would take a long time in accumulating and producing the profit that drives the engine. We're already looking at crisis over drinking water in the near future and the paths being taken by countries such as India and China should make you realize pretty clearly how biased towards a fossil fuel economy the current system is.

 

[xmobotx]

see now; i do realize those things i m simply opposed to what has happened/is happening and i dont feel like a conversation where we say "we cant maintain the status quo w/ coming populations" is the correct way to address the issue or even productive

i guess; really, its mostly pointless for us to consider it; "might makes right" and those unwilling to simply drop their investments do have that might

IDK what needs to happen maybe socializing the oil industry worldwide and forcing it's hierarchy to actually work like the slaves who have been supporting them

while it may come down to deciding who gets sterilized; it would seem where we are currently; the 'lifestyle' may actually be what needs addressed but how does that happen? 1st world countries deplete the resources living like there is no tomorrow then; when 3rd world countries start accessing the tech; we shut THEM down all "oh noes, the environment/sustainability YOU cant do that"

meanwhile the techs which could have kept this issue from being what it is {which isnt whats being represented} have been suppressed and still most people think prohibition is about drugs

i apologize for the candor of my previous post. it is a little hostile

I'm sorry but that is just plain wrong.

its not wrong. i m not saying the issue does not exist {THAT is irreducible} i m saying that; the situation being what it is, the ideal of the 'population bomb' is a taking point which will most likely end up being leveraged into some form of rich get richer tax scenario which resolves nothing but siphons the fruits of our slavery into the bank accounts of the uber-rich

*edit* it helps to realize that the initial population bomb forecasts had total decline occurring before benchmarks which have already been reached ~its a 'nothing new under the sun' scenario

 

[BullDogUK]

its not wrong. i m not saying the issue does not exist {THAT is irreducible} i m saying that; the situation being what it is, the ideal of the 'population bomb' is a taking point which will most likely end up being leveraged into some form of rich get richer tax scenario which resolves nothing but siphons the fruits of our slavery into the bank accounts of the uber-rich

I agree completely that nothing is going to happen over night rather that the systems we use are reliant on an ongoing supply of fossil fuels which is going to become uneconomical (gosh how we hate that -_-) in the very near future.

*edit* I don't think I put this across haha - yes we can survive with an increasing population but I don't think anyone in the western world particularly wants to live on a planet where we all have to spend 18 hours each day to produce the food that we eat that day.

 

[intotheunknown]

but, its got electrolytes

 

[xmobotx]

18 hours a day to produce the food that we eat each day

strawman

perhaps; following a certain method; 18 hours of work would be required to feed 1 person

but; that being the case; why would you follow that method? is it possible there may be an improved method where 12 hours was enough? how about 6 hours? what if you were set up to just graze when you were hungry and never really worked to produce food once established?

i talked w/ a fairly experienced friend about self sustenance who feels it would take a fairly large community to pull it off. I disagree but; the community factor takes all the wind out of those 18 hour sails no?

@ whatever rate; petroleum certainly isnt the only means to produce fuel/power e.g. all the wind power and hydro power could be produced absent petrol and many of those structures are in place {yes I understand these things require lubrication and maintenance NTM the infrastructure to route the power ~but; those things can be produced w/ alternative means} The thinking is that many of these things are not as efficient/effective as petrol? Does that take into account the hidden costs of petrol production? the costs to future generations? e.g. the reality is we dont actually pay enough @ the pump ~@ least not w/ the oil co profiting as well ~those 'costs' are subsidized when the cleanup gets left to the gov for instance.....

Does it {your strawman} take into account that we dont actually need power? People farmed for millennia absent any kind of mechanization! Granted; pandora's box is open and we know there is an easier way. But; we also know better, cleaner, more sustainable ways to do that

And; it shouldnt seem insanely unreasonable to also work @ minimizing the soaring populace as well

what is that group which argues that everyone should simply stop breeding? they dont even want to control the population/they want mankind to voluntarily eliminate themselves by simply discontinuing to procreate ~not the most moderate viewpoint but, illustrative

perhaps once robots and drones fight the wars we wont need a continuous re-supply of naive teens for our military and that can be addressed ~those days are certainly not far off/perhaps this bomb is being defused as we speak

 

[BullDogUK]

what if you were set up to just graze when you were hungry and never really worked to produce food once established?

That's precisely what our ancestors did, however it doesn't lend itself to large population groups which is what modern society really requires.

@ whatever rate; petroleum certainly isnt the only means to produce fuel/power e.g. all the wind power and hydro power... The thinking is that many of these things are not as efficient/effective as petrol? Does that take into account the hidden costs of petrol production? the costs to future generations?

This is precisely why we need to be moving away from our current system. Thankfully we're now reaching a point where renewable sources of energy are on a par with fossil fuels in terms of cost per megawatt but again the fact stands that we have an infrastructure set up to generate, transport and distribute x amount of fossil fuels or derived products which does not currently exist for alternatives. It's sad, I agree but I don't think the change to alternatives will happen at anything faster than a gradual pace.

Does it {your strawman} take into account that we dont actually need power? People farmed for millennia absent any kind of mechanization! Granted; pandora's box is open and we know there is an easier way. But; we also know better, cleaner, more sustainable ways to do that

Yes we do not need power. We don't need houses either. Or healthcare, or reliable sources of food, or clean drinking water or laws or a justice system [yeah, we're working on that one still]. And for much of the time that people have lived like that, human life has been miserable, violent, filled with illness and often brutally short. If you think we should go back to living like that, then sure. Unfortunately I don't think many in the world agree so we have to look for an alternative that allows a 'modern' lifestyle and a continuing rate of technological advances without killing ourselves off.

And; it shouldnt seem insanely unreasonable to also work @ minimizing the soaring populace as well

It might seem a bit odd seeing as I'm slating you a bit for a utopian view, I actually think we'll overcome these problems by expanding out of our planet and maybe even solar system. It sounds far fetched but frankly if you were to show a 2013 mobile phone to your average 1980's Joe, you'd probably be tried as a witch. Who knows what's possible in the future?

 

[xmobotx]

ahh well i remember the mobile phones from the 80s and the articles of popular science et al about 'miniaturization' it's actually yet another "nothing new under the sun" scenario ~you might have to go back before the phone itself to get that kind of reaction

i often wonder if we havent already been 'here' before {if we are indeed at the brink of catastrophe} and what ancient tech may have been like ~but that is the stuff of tin-foil hats and ridicule

so anyway; i think something more along the lines of expecting people to take care of their own needs ~such as instead of working for someone else you work for yourself perhaps in a container garden and move towards people commuting under their own power {save diminishing resources for overseas travel and cross country/long distance} something of a conservation approach combined w/ efforts to control the expanding problem

i know its eugenics but i cant really see the drawback from a societal perspective to limiting the breeding of the less intelligent / i m not saying they cant have any children just theres really no reason for anyone to have like 6 or 8 kids ~esp if they are a detriment to society likely to produce further of the same {whether genetically or by example}

Yes we do not need power. We don't need houses either. Or healthcare, or reliable sources of food, or clean drinking water or laws or a justice system [yeah, we're working on that one still]. And for much of the time that people have lived like that, human life has been miserable, violent, filled with illness and often brutally short. If you think we should go back to living like that, then sure.

^^this here is some slippery slope^^

i know i just made an 'extreme' comment {eugenics} but when i say we don't "need" some of these things; again pandora's box is already open/we dont need to go back to the stone age to facilitate a solution. It's a thing like recycling or taking the bus ~its just that not enough is being done such as it is

and enough w/ 'non-solutions' like electric cars where the energy production is simply moved off-site and the mechanisms to facilitate them are a nightmare of production/pollution/disposal

i see solutions more like people producing their own methane or hydrogen/solar efficient or underground homes or greenhouses

just imagine how much energy is wasted with canna being illegal and things like free wind and free light being produced by dwindling resources w/ unseen costs

much ties in to the uber-rich getting richer and over taxation/complicit gov

lol~ eat the rich

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

We hit 7 billion in 2011.

It was a record high.

That would mean that nobody remembers having 8 billion people on Earth.

Can you not do your own research?

he is just mistaken. that was when we hit the 6 billion mark

 

[BushyOldGrower]

Good discussion...

The dislocations will eventually come and it won't be pretty.

I agree that fresh water and oil will become a shortage.

I think becoming a wild animal won't really work because humans have become so much dumber than the animals at surviving in the wild. We seem to have lost our instincts that we credit the animals for surviving since most people think them dumb.

Deer seem quite stupid but they eat grass and graze happily. I wish I could do that but realistically I need things like cars and supermarkets and navigation devices to tell me where to go. I don't want to go back to nature or have to grow all my own food.

The process of surviving on your own means you may not have enough food to make it through a winter or a dry summer. The system is what will fail and then anarchy will ensue so get your shit together and prepare to live somehow.

Maybe it won't happen until after I die but then I will just reincarnate into a world of shit we left behind.

 

[LyryC]

EVERYONE LISTEN TO THIS SHIT!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ175gG98I8

Tell The Truth - Mos Def feat. Immortal Technique& Eminem

 

[xmobotx]

dislocations will eventually come and it won't be pretty.

may eventually come i agree because if history repeats itself; that is what will happen. one likes to think mankind could learn from their mistakes but the problem is that an unthinking, cumbersome, convoluted mechanism churns on w/ multiple disassociated parties at the helm

I agree that fresh water and oil will become a shortage.

likely it already is i.e. many bottled waters are simply filtered municipal and when you weight the means of extraction oil doesnt seem viable at anything like this scale ~>and only greed has driven it here

I think becoming a wild animal won't really work because humans have become so much dumber than the animals at surviving in the wild. We seem to have lost our instincts that we credit the animals for surviving since most people think them dumb.

Deer seem quite stupid but they eat grass and graze happily. I wish I could do that but realistically I need things like cars and supermarkets and navigation devices to tell me where to go. I don't want to go back to nature or have to grow all my own food.

to some extent i think many people would be surprised at what they can become when it becomes necessary/similarly it astounds me sometimes how non-functional some people are

survival of the fittest?

The process of surviving on your own means you may not have enough food to make it through a winter or a dry summer. The system is what will fail and then anarchy will ensue so get your shit together and prepare to live somehow.

Maybe it won't happen until after I die but then I will just reincarnate into a world of shit we left behind.

funny all the people who expected 2012 to be some sort of 'collective awakening' and basically that is what needs to happen

i wonder how likely that is

we are probably better off hoping for rescue by deity/it certainly seems much more likely

 

[Galactic]

And if we are the Gods ourselves, each one of us of our Realities, how does this impact our individual actions and choices?

 

[Tom Hill]

"You must widen your gaze Sherlock/s"

 

[mrcreosote]

Don't worry Bushy,

Humans have an infinite capacity for problem solving.

 

[BushyOldGrower]

That's what I'm worried about...our solutions when we don't plan ahead.

 

[Jbomber79]

reality

reality

maybe it already does..how we live our day to day lives impacts us all. Example A: Dude A walks dog in park, dog poops dude A walks away. Dude B walks dog in park, dog poops dude B picks it up and picks up dude A's. this impacts us all some on-lookers noticed it and walked away feeling like they could do more..

I guess either way your going to come into contact with dog shit no matter what?..

And if we are the Gods ourselves, each one of us of our Realities, how does this impact our individual actions and choices?