Polyploidy

[GMT]

Hi Bag, yeah I see what you mean about there being a lack of info on this subject. The problem with any mutation though is they tend not to be wide spread or stable strains and so it limits the studies that can be done on them or info that is relevent to more than a small group of them. If your plants started with 3 leaves per node, then I personaly would call them tri (3) foliates (leaves). Yours also seem to have additional mutations in that they are flat stemmed (from your descriptions) and seem to be putting out additional branching on top of the original 3 per node (from your pics). So really, you get to choose what to call them. You can have the first Fred plant if you decide upon it. Of course the tale of one guy once having a plant he called fred isnt that impressive, stabalise it, and if others like it once you get it out there, then the tale switches to some guy stabalised Fred from a single mutated plant he had. And you become the source of info for Fred. But to be honest you are asking us for info on a plant that ony you have, and you are refering to it as having 3 sets of chromosomes, without having done any dna testing on it. The truth is it may well be a polyploid, or a diploid, or a tetraploid, but you would have problems telling the difference by just counting the leaves. Hope that mists the fog a little for ya lol.

 

[OG bub]

If your plants started with 3 leaves per node, then I personaly would call them tri (3) foliates (leaves).

agreed.
Ill add that each leaf of the plant should be 3 bladed, and not just the beginning sets..
from the last pics you posted (plant in early bloom) I see the flat stem yer talkin about, but the leafs do not indicate trifoliate to me.

I never studied these aspects of the canna plant, or breeding with it, just wasnt a regular enuff occourance like GMT said for me to make a priority of it.
so thanks for the thread!~

Peace, bub.

 

[phil_stone]

Some infos for your forums mates

Peace, Phil

New DJ Short Article-General Irregularities/Anomalies of Cannabis Relating to Transge
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General Irregularities/Anomalies of Cannabis Relating to Transgressive Segregation

Some of the Blue Family lines of cannabis (True Blueberry, Grape Krush, etc.) are known to occasionally sport various anomalies and irregularities. The main anomaly reported from these lines is that of the "krinkle" leaf type. Also referred to as a form of variegation this irregularity usually involves a twisting or convolution along half of the leaf divided along the central leaf vein. This anomaly usually affects anywhere from 5% to 20% of a given sample depending on the strain (TB = 5% to 10%, GK = 10% to 20%). In and of itself, this trait does not affect yield or the overall health of the plant. It is merely a simple deformity unique to this line of cannabis.

It is important to know the differences between simple deformities and more complex mutations. Simple deformities and anomalies are semi-common phenomenon whereas genetic mutation is by far more rare and profound. Most of the irregular expressions witnessed in some of the Blue Family lines are mere deformities. Very few are true gross mutations and those are usually sterile or non-viable (usually < %1).

I used to think that the deformities witnessed in certain lines of cannabis were strictly the result of a mutagenic regimen such as colchicine. Variegation in particular is a typical symptom of such a process. If such a process were used on the varieties of cannabis I have worked with, I assume that it was in the Thai lines as that is where most of these traits seem to originate. There is, however, another aspect to consider regarding these anomalies called transgressive segregation.

Transgressive segregation refers to the situation where the progeny from crosses of distinctly different P1's exhibit characteristics beyond what either parent exhibited. A good botanical example is that of the cabbage family from which broccoli, cauliflower and Brussel sprouts developed from the same meager beach cabbage. This is the level of the diversity witnessed in the f2's and beyond crosses of the plants that I have worked with.

The combination of the two very pure, unique and distinctly different varieties of indica and sativa resulted in the extreme variation in the f-2 and beyond progeny. This is where the anomalies, irregularities, eccentricities and effects of transgressive segregation are witnessed and isolated. It is from this extended diversity that new and exciting lines are discovered and isolated. Simple leaf irregularities are no reason to abandon a particular line, and perhaps are an indication of something worthwhile. Suggesting that these anomalies are in some way detrimental to the overall cannabis gene-pool is akin to suggesting that broccoli, cauliflower and Brussel sprouts are in some way detrimental to the cabbage family.

[Side Note: What may have been very detrimental to the overall cannabis gene-pool was the "willy-nilly" introduction of indica and indica-based genes to the equatorial regions of the world–circa 1980's. The tropics are susceptible to aggressive takeover by dominant species and sub-species. This may be what happened to the fine sativa land races of yore–coupled with human selection for production-based indica varieties. Hopefully this phenomenon will be relatively short lived as human selection re-kindles the near-lost memory of the beloved land-race sativa.]

The structural differences witnessed in some of the Blue line individuals including anomalies such as leaf shape, leaf krinkle and color variations, along with basic aesthetic qualities such as range of flavor and palate, issues of duration, tolerance and even shelf-life are more than likely the results of transgenic segregation.
None of these minor abnormalities are in any way detrimental to the overall gene-pool. There do occur very rare instances of freakishly deformed and stunted individuals. Every one of these I have ever encountered has been sterile or non-viable. However, some have produced some of the most unique finished product I have ever sampled in terms of flavor, potency and effect. Unfortunately, these extreme abnormalities are not only rare and sterile, most are also nearly impossible to clone.

Please remember, my number one goal when breeding fine herb is that of the finished product. All other factors; structure, color, growth rates and patterns, leaf shape, odor, flavor, height, flowering characteristics, even potency (please see my other comments concerning bland potency versus exciting quality in my book and other articles), etc. are of lesser concern. My secondary concern is the minimization and elimination of hermaphrodites. This is primarily for the indoor community's behalf, as it is my belief that true breeding equatorial (outdoor bred and produced) strains are all monoecious to some degree. It is the quality of the finished product that I aim for with all of my work. Structural considerations are selected for only after a variety passes the "head/body" test.

Please note also that I consider myself more of an artist than a scientist. I respect science for what it is (discipline and controlled focus) and enjoy its utilization, but for me it is still simply another tool with which to create. With that said please allow me to state that much of the science (definitive recipe) involved in supporting my goal (to discover, create and produce truly good herb) remains somewhat of a mystery to me. Due to all of the truly good herb I have had the good fortune to sample, I am confident in identifying what I consider to be truly good herb–with or without the science. I am equally curious, as are many, regarding the scientific observations, disciplines and discoveries that support this goal.

Toward that goal there are a few points I would like to attempt to clarify:

The Purple Thai. As mentioned before, the Purple Thai was a cross between an outstanding Highland Oaxaca and a very freaky Chocolate Thai.

The Chocolate Thai was one of the most difficult plants to grow. It was dark and very asymmetric, rarely sporting any kind of a definite main-stem for any length of time. It was difficult to clone and very hermaphroditic, producing small airy buds at best. The herb from the Chocolate Thai passed the test (the progeny were at least as good as, if not better than, their parent), but had certain problems otherwise (structural and hermaphroditic). It was also similar in potency to the Highland Thai regarding strength, length and type of high.

The Highland Oaxaca was structurally a different strain (tall, with a definite main-stem, symmetric with less hermaphroditism and better formed buds). The two were crossed and the resulting seeds produced the famed Purple Thai that I was able to use for quite awhile. The Purple Thai exhibited the symmetry and desirability of the Oaxaca with the potency and dark coloration of the Chocolate Thai–the best of both worlds, and its hermaphroditism was much more manageable. It also cloned well. The plants from these seeds also passed the test of equal or improved quality progeny in terms of finished product. Personally I preferred the finished product of the Purple Thai to the Chocolate, not just due to its growth patterns but in terms of the overall effect. The original Highland Oaxaca produced the most desirable finished product, in my opinion, and has yet to be replicated to my complete satisfaction.

So technically the Purple Thai was not a true, land-race acclimated P1. However, as far as I was concerned it fit the bill quite well in that it was very consistent in the sativa genes it carried and passed (nearly identical to the Highland Thai). It was also the closest to producing the desirability of the Highland Oaxaca’s finished product.

The Highland Thai, could possibly have been from Burma (now Myanmar), as borders between the two countries are questionable and change. Other drainage systems in the region lead to the Eastern Himalaya, meaning that the "Highland Thai" could have originated from a number of places. The entire Himalayan region has perhaps the greatest concentration of geographic "sweet spots" in the world, many worthy of exploration. The Highland Thai grew much like the Chocolate Thai; asymmetric, with more stretch–especially in the bud structures.

The difference in the finished product between the Highland and Purple Thai was that the Highland Thai was more potent while the Purple Thai was more "kind" ("kind" being more comfortable to endure, especially while tripping). Another way to put it is that the Highland Thai could be more "racy" or "scary" while the Purple Thai tended to be more "relaxed" or "happy". Both had no ceiling or noticeable tolerance effect, and both provided a long lasting experience, as well. Both also shared a very similar sweet/fruity flavored phenotype that was unmistakably Juicy Fruit/Tutti Fruity–the ultimate female breeder (Note: this was from the plants grown locally--Oregon, indoor and out).

Regarding a clue to the equatorial "Holy Grail" such as the Highland Oaxaca and Santa Marta Gold (South and Central American varieties) a certain, unmistakable flavor comes to mind: that of incense cedar/frankincense/burgundy/floral with spicy/savory undertones. Coffee, chocolate and fine tobacco were also present, but the sweet incense cedar is what I most recall from the Highland Oaxaca and Colombian Gold varieties. The Thai was more complex with more spicy/savory aspects atop a finely distilled burgundy (probably more from the cure) and sort of a "dying" floral, sickly-sweet aroma that was unmistakeably Thai herb (sometimes from Hawaiian as well).

An important aspect to note here is that, according to the best of my knowledge, most high quality sativa of the era was in some way shape or form of Thai origin (or greater Himalayan, but for simplicity’s sake referred to as "Thai"). This includes the Oaxaca, Colombian, Panamanian, Hawaiian among others of the late 1970's. Most of it supposedly came from Thai seed stock. Having sampled many of the region-of-origin varieties of the time, I must concur. Many of the Central, South American and the great Island herbs of the time were more than likely of Thai origin. Similarly, today’s version of ‘Sweet Skunk’ (a misnomer for sure) when grown to fully finished bloom and with a long-time cure shares a distinct Thai quality as well.

Therefore, it seems Thai was the fundamental building block for most quality commercial sativa of the 1970's. ("Commercial" is a key word in the previous sentence as I am sure that there were/are many different origins of the regional high quality herbs.) Certain aspects of acclimation must have been responsible for the subtle (and not-so-subtle) differences of the various herbs of the time.

My definition of acclimation is: grown in a specific region or circumstance for enough generations (in-line bred) to impart characteristics unique to the region or circumstance–preferably in an herbal "sweet-spot" such as Highland Oaxaca. This is a very important consideration regarding future resurrection of land race varieties.

Side Note: When I was working with these sativa back in the 1970's it was all done either outdoors or under large florescent systems, 8' bulbs set onto 4'X8' sheets of plywood and suspended from 2"X4" frames (obviously before the advent of HID lighting). This was also before the introduction of the Indica (Afghan) genes, which appeared commercially at the same time as HID lighting (circa 1978-‘79).

The indica, or "Afghan" varieties became commercially available at the end of the ‘70's, and were the polar opposite to the Thai’s and other sativa. It is interesting to note that Afghanistan is west and north of the Himalaya while Thailand (and Burma) is east and south. Short, stout, wide-leafed, very symmetric and adapted to a short flowering cycle, the indica is what brought the musky "skunk" odor to the game. I must say that I was not a big fan of the pure indica "skunk" strain. It is the primary culprit responsible for of much of the couch-lock characteristic found in much of today’s herb. Indica usually has a low ceiling and a quick tolerance buildup. In short, it is boring, bland and dull herb, unless one seeks anesthetization (or hashish production).

In the indica’s defense it needs to be noted that it helped birth the indoor cannabis industry. Without the indica’s fast flowering cycle or its dense bud production or its short stature, the indoor grow scene would be very different today. It was somewhat obvious to recognize indica’s virtues and liabilities for what they were. It was work and dedication to breed out the bad and to strive for the desirable. The primary virtue of the indica variety is that of its contributions toward hashish production.

An interesting side-note to the indica breeding scheme was the initial direction of the cross. I found much better success with the sativa/indica cross (the female sativa crossed with the indica pollen) than with the opposite indica/sativa cross (the female indica pollinated with the sativa pollen). Again, this was primarily for quality of finished product from the progeny. I found my "Holy Grails" via the diversity of the sativa/indica cross.

Other anomalies witnessed from the extreme diversity of cannabis include examples of polyploid expression–triple and quadruple types, twins–including various forms of conjoined twins, double leaf and double root phenomenon, along with extreme variation in odor, color and flavor, etc.

So the successes of transgressive segregation are highly dependent upon the selections made in the P1 and f2 generations. These are the most important generations regarding overall selection. The direction of the P1 cross also seemed to play a part in successfully finding high quality herb.

That is all I have time for right now. Feel free to add comments to this thread and I will attempt to answer any questions as time permits. (Please forgive me if I do not respond soon to an inquiry as my life is anything but stable at the moment--hopefully later this year--but in the meantime wish me luck on finding a suitable locale for some serious r & d!) Thank you to all who contribute and partake in this sharing of information--your input is appreciated. So take care, have fun and please keep the discussion flowing.

peace/out

dj

 

[BagAppeal]

Mine does clone.SO another unnormal trait I guess...
.Great info by he way!Thanks for making this tread worth something..
I'll keep up trying new stuff, and fill you in on what happens.. I hope i will be able to pollinate it.. then I'll send out beans for all that want them for testing..I'm sure this is gonna be hard to make a cross of, but there's always a small maybe to hold on to.... I'm holding on! I have a few males that should make great crosses,especially a S.A.G.E wich have shown "polyploidy" tendences when crossed earlier with other moms,,
I am excited!!Ill post some more and better pics soon,,but please, post pics and info if you've had any experience with mutanst on your own.. All is appreciated!!
BTW.. GMT-that thread you made 3+3=? Good work. I loved to see this,,I understand this takes work, but I work with what I love to do, so I can work forever...

 

[GMT]

Things are a lot harder than just taking two freaks and crossing them. You have to work the strain more than that. And if ya keep calling them polyploids, I'm taking my rep back lol. If you have a male already, why are you asking for pollen, (which is against forum guidlines by the way)?

 

[BagAppeal]

GMT sorry.. nice info on your thread by the way,, and I know it takes a lot of work, but it aslo starts somewhere... I'll keep searching for info.. I'm not calling them polyploids,I am merely asking what you would suggest I call them, since you already seem to know a lot more thanme on this subject.. thanks for the good info you put out there anyway..

 

[Guest]

Is this something that can form as a branch or bud on an otherwise normal cultivar.

 

[BagAppeal]

I dont think so... But some "mutants" grow from normal pattern in to their mutated pattern after certain internodes.. atleast that's what I have experiencedd., but I don't know for sure.. I ain't no expert..

 

[marijuanamat]

Heres a pic of a Chronic x Kali mist seedling with whorled phillotaxy



and heres a pic of a Kali mist seedling with whorled cotyledons.

 

[BagAppeal]

Nice pics.. Mine was like the one at the top when it was a sprout.. so I guess it's whorled phillotaxy?? Thanks for all the great info. I really appreciate it!! keep it coming, we can never learn enough!!

 

[shantibaba]

Hi All

I have also come across this phenomena on several occassions in breeding lines. In all of these plants I found nothing significant or impressive that could contribute to a plants breeding, so ultimately they all got the chop. I would be interested to hear if there was anything found that was special other than the flattening of the stem.

Interesting thread and good reading well done.All the best Shantibaba

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Shantibaba,
Are you talking about whorled phyllotaxy or faciated stems?
I agree for sure with faciated plants being useless for production, but whorled phyllotaxy has no negative qualities that I know of. I have crossed whorled phyllotaxy males with whorled phyllotaxy females several times, but I never got any populations that had a high incidence of whorled progeny.

Anyone else crossed male whorled phyllotaxy to female whorled phyllotaxy? What were the progeny like?
-SamS

 

[Guest]

I've crossed a male that grew with four branches at each node right from the 1st node (but had only 2 cotyledon leaves) to a female of the same strain that grew with four cotyledons (looked like clover) and then had 2, 3 or 4 branches at it's nodes and had a stange node pattern with branches at different points rather than at the same point (but not alternating nodes like a mature plant) and out of the 25 seeds I grew out from them, had 4 or 5 with similar branching, but all were males and I never went any further.

I'll have to take some pics to show you what I mean, but I have noticed a very strange trait in some of the Colombian Gold x Grapefruitbowl F2 seedlings I have vegging at the moment, I first noticed that some of them were growing with heir new leaves of uneven sizes, instead of being the same size, one was a third larger than the other, I noticed last night that these plants are now growing with alternate rather than opposite nodes, they are only about 20 days from seed and are not mature, they have alternating nodes and a zig-zag stem from their 2nd or 3rd node. This is not a trait I noticed in either parental line, they look like mature colombian Golds do when they start growing alternate nodes, with a zig-zag stem.

 

[dubi]

Good day all!

Sam, have you tried to produce S1 seeds with STS from a whorled phyllotaxy female?

I have never tried it personally but if whorled phyllotaxy is a very recessive trait, you can fix it with higher probabilities using auto pollination. Only an idea.

I also found quite more whorled phyllotaxy males than females. very interesting thread indeed.

 

[shantibaba]

Hi All

Sam, the plants with faciated stems were useless and killed.However plants displaying the whorled phyllotaxy traits have been equally as good as any other selected plants. I have not noticed any significant yield increases or quickness to grow traits but these types are plants are in the MNS camp too. The only male to female breed I tried in relation to the whorled phyllotaxy did not produce progeny with this trait in large amounts...so it would seem to support the same conclusions you also have experienced.

Wishing you all a good weekend further all the best Sb

 

[BagAppeal]

by the way.. shanti=or anyone who finds this interesting?/how do you think the flat stem would work if introduced into hemp breeding, wouldn\t this create a lot more fiber?? just wondering if you have any views??
here.s a pic of my flowering top at the moment, it sure isn\t looking like anything else in the room.. Any suggestions to the best way to make some s1 s in the future?/

This one is really growing fast and looks bigger than evrything else, but there is still some time left for a lot to happen..
added some more pics, various stages of flowering

 

[illuminati]

cool tread BA.
that flatsteam is looking sick, what does she smell like and how is the trichome production coming along?

how is the petri coming along???
mine just made it to the halfway mark 35days, just cant wait to see how these trifoliates pack on during the laste fase of flowering.
the petri gets a sick catpiss\lemon stink after 25days and needs a good amount of n during pre-flowering, stretches like a mofo but keeps a tigth intenode struckture. would be wise to cut of the fanleafs after 2 weeks of 12/12. it puts on a heavy foilage during preflowering.

here are some pics.



when you have a plant that has whorled phillotaxy (three leafs and branches on each node) and it has a uniform growth patern of 3 and 3 on the main stem, but the sidebranches are growing in a 2+1 patern. one leaf is a little over the the node with 2.

when i take clones from the sidebranches will they return to the uniform 3 and 3 or will they always grow 2+1. ( just wondering)

 

[BagAppeal]

Hey Illumi.. The Petri is doing good. Will be put to flower in two days, or so..
We should do some STS on them both, and see what comes out. I just got the the recipe..
check link to thread
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=1193394#post1193394

 

[GMT]

Imust admit, that even though in general I dont approve of sts type breeding methods, I would be very interested to see the results of an sts selfed tri.

 

[BagAppeal]

same here, not really a big fan of the whole feminized seed wave, but in this case it might be the only way to put the genes in beans..