Please breeders we still want regular seeds too...

[BlueGrassToker]

If you cross an IBL with one if it's sisters via feminizing, and then cross that same IBL with one of it's sibling brothers, there will be absolutely no way to tell the progeny from both crosses apart genetically...laboratory or no. They will both be of the same filial generation, and the seeds brought by feminizing, as well as the ones brought by regular m/f breeding will carry the exact same markers(within relative variances)...save for there will be no Y chromosome to be found in any of the feminized stock.
In fact, all of the seeds produced from both crosses are considered IBL of the Xth generation. They should probably be labeled properly though with IBL Filialgeneration(X) for the regular stock, and IBL Reversed Filialgeneration(X) [for instance; F10 vs RF10]

 

[elmanito]

It would be nice to see an experiment of a 1000 fem plants in the open field pollinate each other and see what mother nature will do with it. Are the plants still fem after several generations or has she produced fem with male or only hermies.

Namaste

 

[Illuminate]

^^From this thread im sure it would revert to m/f eventualy..??

 

[BlueGrassToker]

I think an experiment like that would be most righteous, el! However I fear in a natural selective environment it may take lots of things to happen before a normal (or what we might consider normal) population would take hold. For one thing, only the plants that are more prone than others to show hermaphrodite will do so. And as a result of the only pollen being available is from plants that have a predisposition to go hermie, which will promote a predisposition for the same trait in the progeny.
Eventually it may happen that a normal sex pattern could evolve back into the population, but without the introduction of the Y chromosome somewhere along the line I think we could only depend on mutation to make things happen.

Now, in a fully controlled situation using selective breeding, we could for sure hone in on what genes are available and produce some very fine specimens. But remember that with selective breeding we are going to more than likely use the females that do NOT have the proclivity to show hermie. And without the help of man in forcing plants to produce pollen (plants that normally would NOT produce pollen in the wild) I fear the population of 1000 is doomed. Even with continued forcing and breeding down the line, degradation from inbreeding will eventually occur.

 

[chos3n]

Not really into feminized seeds but I recently picked up some Wifi x Casey Jones fems. Seen some good reports on them so we shall see what happens.

Still get disappointed when I see breeders no longer offering regs, wish I would have grabbed them while I had the chance.

 

[foomar]

Have just sexed out thirty plants from three crosses , twenty five males , such is probability , and could have been the reverse.

Feminised would have possibly been a better choice , if you really needed those girls.


Have only selfed two keepers , one by stress and one by silver , none of the progeny were as good or stable as the mothers , yet both cross out very well with several disparate males , its certainly not a case of throwing silver on a good plant and expecting stunners.

Are there any S1,s of so called elites that actually deliver the goods ?

 

[Big City]

Have just sexed out thirty plants from three crosses , twenty five males , such is probability , and could have been the reverse.

Feminised would have possibly been a better choice , if you really needed those girls.


Have only selfed two keepers , one by stress and one by silver , none of the progeny were as good or stable as the mothers , yet both cross out very well with several disparate males , its certainly not a case of throwing silver on a good plant and expecting stunners.

Are there any S1,s of so called elites that actually deliver the goods ?

You are probably selfing F1's or polyhybrids and therefore getting similar results to if you used males from the same generation/ population. Although, with a better likelihood of finding similar plants to the mother, these plants are still fairly heterozygous. You would need to do a little more work to get stable results. I would continue down the line and take the best to an S2 generation.

But, If you feel really strongly about using those two specific plants in crosses, you could always use them as a pollen donor on select females. I would wager that crossing them in that manner to stellar females would give at least as good results as you've gotten using unknown male plants. But, more than likely even better results and a much higher percentage of females than you've just gotten.

S1's of elites that deliver the goods? Stay tuned, as I'm sure in the not so distant future we will have a better grasp on that. But, generally any elite that is homozygous for it's desirable traits will yield good plants in the S1 generation. One example of this, is Bubba Kush.

 

[foomar]

And, If you feel really strongly about using those two plants in crosses, you could always use them as a pollen donor on select females.

Thanks BC , it never ocurred to me to try that , have frozen pollen from both , and will try them on each other.

 

[Mycel]

Been loving the fem seeds last few years ! 95% of the beans I've popped in the last 2 years have been fems ! Found many a keeper from them!

 

[ganjic]

I usually order regular seeds but fem are great for newbies and if you cant/don't keep moms.

 

[Swampwater]

fems have they're place, some don't have the time or space to sort out males/females.
That being said.......Fuck fem seeds and doublefuck autos.
It won't be law enforcement that causes mj to become an endangered species, it'll be breeders shoving hermaphrodites and rudelis down everyones throats.
just my 2cents

 

[señorsloth]

id say a whole field of 1000 fem plants(not a very big field, btw)would probably go to mostly hermie 9 out of 10 times...people forget that hermys are natural and that in many places on this planet most of the females hermie automatically and there are very few pure males, i don't really see how having separate male and female plants would help the species survive, as far as i know, it's one of ONLY 2 plants that are annual and have separate male and female plants in the entire world! i think without human help maybe even most of it would be largely hermies...

they say after all that most sativa's have a tenancy to hermie in late flower, and thats after doing their best to breed the hermies out of the wild stock they built the strains from...because sativa's mostly all like to hermie in the wild...and indica was bred from sativa's for hash production by man over hundreds of years, indica's were not naturally evolved, it is a domesticated version of the plant, genetically almost identical, similar to the dog and the wolf...so in effect it's man that's been keeping the cannabis species from possessing hermy traits all over the world, traits that it would probably tend towards naturally if we were not here to dictate that it not be so...

i do understand the need for true breeding strains, with males and females, and no hermies, for domesticated pot production. feminizing seeds is a business practice to keep their hold on the genetics they have...this will not last long, it's a product of the black market, because there is only a few sources for seed right now they can give us whatever they want and we will buy it, but in the next 4 years incredible things are going to happen to cannabis, i believe it will be legal over most of the world by then and once you can buy locally bred seeds i don't think there will be a way for seed companies to monopolize genetics and feminize them so they can't be easily reused...after all, now there are hundreds of seed companies, imagine when there are thousands and thousands, if you want male/female seeds you will be able to get them! until legalization finally comes to fruition though many will have to put up with fem seeds.

i blame those nasty mutts of the cannabis world, the autoflowers, and the autoflower breaders for the popularization of "forced fem" stock, my way of saying, that they don't leave you any option for getting a male...they did this because it got them more sales, lowryder used to be male/female when it first came out, but people would spend the 100 bucks on a ten pack of seeds and grow them all in a little bunch, 9 weeks later they had hundreds of seeds for free and that same season they could grow hundreds more and never need to buy overpriced joint dr. stock again! thanks to the fact that autoflowers can't be cloned, no mothers can be made and kept. by only allowing fem versions of their strains they can force the newbe to buy from them over and over again instead of being able to start their own population. this is a bad practice in my opinion and stems from their monopoly on the market. not only are autoflowering plants the most pointless product in the game, but many many newbe's think it's the only way to grow a plant less than 18 inches tall which is total hooey...

i'm lazy about males, i like to build a harem of assorted female mothers first, then order a male/female seed pack, pick the best male, harvest his polen and store it, then pollenize what i want, when i want, i don't' trust myself with live males around so i guess i put up with the fem's, i have had issues with them hermying a little too easily for my liking, and given the choice i will usually always pick male/female over feminized, but if the strain i want is only in stock as feminized i'll buy it, and accept that if i do decide to breed with it it will have to be a hybrid, not an f2, although i'm not big on breeding, i don't have much room too try out new stock so when i get bored of what i have i am more inclined to try something totally different, rather than waste space crossing two strains i'm already sort of bored of and then hoping for something thats completely different. that goes for males too, i can't get annoyed with feminized strains too much because it is nice to be able to grow out two 5 packs of fem seeds in the same space as 10 regular seeds, meaning double the possible keeper moms vs the regular seeds where i am likely to only keep one female and have to grow 5 males for 6 weeks just so that i can find and kill them off...that takes up too much space for my small veg room, so my only reason to ever buy fems is that because of this black market i only have a tiny 2x2x3 foot flowering cab with less than 200 watts for veg...when it becomes legal i may expand, stop buying fem strains and breeding much more... or i may just start buying most of my stuff from the store and concentrating on more rare stuff in my little wardrobe cab...

 

[Duplicate]

feminizing seeds is a business practice to keep their hold on the genetics they have...but if the strain i want is only in stock as feminized i'll buy it, and accept that if i do decide to breed with it it will have to be a hybrid, not an f2...

Why? If you have two different feminized phenotypes from the same filial generation, and you reverse one to pollinate the other it is the same as using a male from the same filial generation. That's what this whole thread is about. Just because you reverse a female plant doesn't mean that you have to use the pollen to pollinate itself.

As mentioned earlier in the thread the feminization of the offspring of reversed plants is more of a bi-product of this type of breeding practice rather than the ultimate goal.

 

[wrongwrong]

i'm lazy about males, i like to build a harem of assorted female mothers first, then order a male/female seed pack, pick the best male, harvest his polen and store it, then pollenize what i want, when i want, i don't' trust myself with live males around so i guess i put up with the fem's, i have had issues with them hermying a little too easily for my liking, and given the choice i will usually always pick male/female over feminized, but if the strain i want is only in stock as feminized i'll buy it

not to get too into your post... how you making sure he's male? how do you know he's the best?

 

[redneck shogun]

I understand why breeders get cranky now. This shit gets really old when people have to be schooled every time the page turns over on a long thread. Just read post #4, and don't fuck with Tom.

 

[roach]

i read thru half of this thread then my brain gave up, same arguments again and again...

but i have some thoughts, i have been breeding plants for many years, not just cannabis and have a been a strong advocate for reversal breeding for a long time, i have also been against (and still am) feminized seeds, but not because they are feminized but because most producers of them are just greedy bastards with no clue about what they are doing, these people are also the reason for the bad rep feminized seeds have.

but as a breeding tool reversal is very powerfull, you could take a clone like Sour Diesel or Chem#4 (just to name two i have experience with) they are both very prone to make males flowers and so is their offspring, if you made S1´s of either of the original clones and grew out maybe 1000 or even 100.000 you would most likely find a plant that resembled the original but without the banana gene

i wish i was better at english so i could explain it better, but as a plant breeder reversal is one of your most powerfull tools in your kit, but it should never be the only tool used

hope it made some sense...

 

[headband 707]

imvho breeders that don't give you reg seeds are greedy fucks.. pretty plain and simple.. kinda like hoarding elite cuts it's the it's all mine crap you hear in the school yard.. Whats mine is mine and your not getting any... remember this when you see their names and don't forget it because this is the type of person your dealing with all the time.....
Best move you can make is to move on and not buy their shit because trust me when I say that there will be better shit out there then what they have to offer..lol headband 707

These are some tips take them or leave them:
Don't deal with a breeder that thinks he/she is too kewl for school.
Don't deal with a breeder that doesn't bother to replace his shitty seeds.
Don't deal with a breeder that think their shit doesn't stink.
Don't deal with breeders that lie about their shit ie. it has the best smell,taste,high, on and on that shit get real old.
Whenever there has been a problem with seeds it's the person that buys the seeds that always looks like shit on the board not the breeder remember this. No matter what your skills your going to look like you did somthing wrong not that breeder. I have seen this happen over and over so keep a calm head and know your shit stay real headband 707

 

[idiit]

Recently it was announced that the genome of cannabis has been fully mapped. So far only the raw genetic sequence has been released. That means the genetic data has yet to be assembled into a coherent, organized genome. The scientific community needs to perform this work to really determine what if any desirable traits could be carried by sex chromosomes.

^exactly my view as well. so far no scientific proof of sex determined traits for desirable traits like high effects, potency, hardiness, yield, et al. however the work by our scientific community re this topic is not yet complete. if it turns out that keeping some regular seedlines around as a backstop is important for some (any) reason that has not yet been proven then we would be glad we have plan2 (reg seeds).

i've got a couple of lines that i feel compelled to help preserve. for these lines i want to preserve the original genetic gene pool as best as possible and regular seeds from as large a specimen pool i can muster seems the best course of action.

for my own farming purposes and with my limited breeding knowledge femmed seeds from proven females as the pollen donor into my best female recipients is the course of action i decided on.

i don't sell seeds so my breeding perspective for seeds sold to market is moot.

sincere thanks to tom hill for such a easy to comprehend explanation of this subject matter!

thanks to the canna community for not knee jerking this topic out of civil discourse.

 

[headband 707]

.

 

[headband 707]

^exactly my view as well. so far no scientific proof of sex determined traits for desirable traits like high effects, potency, hardiness, yield, et al. however the work by our scientific community re this topic is not yet complete. if it turns out that keeping some regular seedlines around as a backstop is important for some (any) reason that has not yet been proven then we would be glad we have plan2 (reg seeds).

i've got a couple of lines that i feel compelled to help preserve. for these lines i want to preserve the original genetic gene pool as best as possible and regular seeds from as large a specimen pool i can muster seems the best course of action.

for my own farming purposes and with my limited breeding knowledge femmed seeds from proven females as the pollen donor into my best female recipients is the course of action i decided on.

i don't sell seeds so my breeding perspective for seeds sold to market is moot.

sincere thanks to tom hill for such a easy to comprehend explanation of this subject matter!

thanks to the canna community for not knee jerking this topic out of civil discourse.

Yeah I found out that not many ppl have labs and abilities to do what few have done with cannabis.Cash is always king headband 707