Photo Essay: Calcined DE as Rooting Medium

[supherbb]

Reading this thread has definitely turned me on to the napa DE. I have a store right down the road from me so grabbing a few bags is no issue.

My only question is what size sieve should I be looking for to sift through this stuff? In other words, roughly how large are the pieces that would suffice for 1:1 perlite replacement?

Thanks

 

[mad librettist]

damn I packed it away for a move, but what I used was the biggest size sieve in my set. (a little japanese soil sieve for bonsai people)

a want to say 1/4"?


make sure it is dry, and wear a mask

 

[jaykush]

That would be a good experiment side by side with the same strain.

Compost verses DE for best germination.

it will germinate faster in the DE, but will need to be transplanted out of it asap as it has zero to give the plant. i use a mix of compost and DE. which imo gives the best results.

 

[supherbb]

Thanks mad librettist!

I'm trying to find a piece of 1/4" mesh that I can maybe attach to a 2x4 frame to make sifting easier (and faster).

 

[heady blunts]

Thanks mad librettist!

I'm trying to find a piece of 1/4" mesh that I can maybe attach to a 2x4 frame to make sifting easier (and faster).

its called hardware cloth at home depot.

 

[supherbb]

its called hardware cloth at home depot.

Yeah I checked my store has a bunch of it in stock so I'm gonna go that way. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[h.h.]

it will germinate faster in the DE, but will need to be transplanted out of it asap as it has zero to give the plant. i use a mix of compost and DE. which imo gives the best results.

Have you tried the straight DE? It seems the seed would get lost in the air space and would be hard to keep moist.
On the other extreme, I've been using straight compost which gives excellent germination, but is a little tough on the seedling.
IMO, your opinion is probably dead on. Do you use a ratio or just do it by feel?

 

[jaykush]

yes i have, in fact i have over 10 different seeds germinating in pure DE right now. my onions and leeks LOVE starting in DE. i feel that the DE holds more than enough moisture to get them going. I use straight compost too for other seeds, but my compost is very fluffy and is full of aeration and drainage materials already. i only start seeds in pure DE that dont mind transplanting too much. with cannabis id go with pure quality compost or a mix. no ratio, just by feel as all composts will need different percentages to get the same properties.

 

[h.h.]

I just didn't have much DE in my starting mix. I noticed when I started my worm bin that everything in it sprouted, so I used pretty much just vermacompost.
I threw a handful into a transplant mix and sprinkled some on top after transplanting and they're doing much better.
It drained well enough without the DE, it just seemed a little rich. I'm thinking the DE acts as a buffer or some sort of nitrogen sink, much like the bio-char.
Good info, I'll have to give it a shot with some different veggies.Thanks.

 

[gloryoskie]

Thanks to all, especially Mad for the info on DE!

Since switching from perlite to DE I have happier plants. I screen dry thru a 1/8" steel mesh while wearing a dust mask, then rinse clean like you would do gravel for an aquarium.

I use the sift in a humidity tray in veg and now to clone. I used to clone in water only, but I like the results i get with the DE/light compost mix for the clones.

Thanks again, you guys rock!

Post 200. Whoo hoo!

 

[SeaMaiden]

also I forgot to add another reason to root in DE: you just yank out the cutting, rinse it off, and throw it in whatever. It has already been branching and growing nice fibrous roots that will take fast in soil.

if you aren't used to bare root transplants, make some extra for your first try,

Do you absolutely have to rinse off the DE (or whatever is currently being discussed, I think the thread's back onto the calcined DE now) from the roots? It seems an additional step that may not be necessary, and perhaps could inhibit to some degree or another the plant's ability to begin new root growth upon transplant. The pix I saw suggested that the plants can grow both thick and fibrous tap (?) roots, as well as those finer hairs, with lots of branching, which is why I am asking (suggesting?) that step be skipped.

well remember it needs to be rinsed and screened.

if you want to dry it and pre-soak that's fine, but since it doesn't rob nutrients from the soil it's very optional.

bio-char would be a different story.

Another question, now regarding the sifting of the fines. Is that absolutely necessary, at least with regard to adding to soil mixes for, for whatever reason? Have you tried not sifting the product, using it in its original state, when rooting seedlings or cuttings?

For outdoor growing...I take soil moist and pre soak it in liquid karma then let swell then dry up again. Then add that to the soil...figure as it rains, maybe it helps and releases LK....lol. No proof, but I do it.


dank.Frank

Thanks for that.

lol i must be stoned, ive seen this stuff used on veggie oil all the time from my friend who runs his car on veggie oil. the stuff he uses is just finer than mine. nothing happened.

what a let down!


the MSDS talks about fire! there should be at least a pop and fizz

Perhaps it is as with man-made seawater mixes. If you take a bag of, say, Instant Ocean, and allow even a few drops of water to get on it, it's going to begin a reaction, will begin smoking until the water's 'burned' off. If you have wet hands/arms and touch that mix directly you risk burning yourself (I've created a condition where I cannot tolerate certain substances specifically on my forearms, especially if what is called salt creep {the build-up on saltwater tank edges & equipment} touches any area of my forearms).

 

[jaykush]

Do you absolutely have to rinse off the DE

i dont

Another question, now regarding the sifting of the fines. Is that absolutely necessary

i dont

 

[h.h.]

While I don't rinse or sift, I think there might be some variables.
Where the quarry is and perhaps, what part of the quarry. It's a natural product.
How it is screened originally.
How it's handled. How it's shipped and how far.
Soil mix.
I buy 1 brand at 1 store and it works well with my soil.
Between the calcium, magnesium, and the silica, as long as the fines aren't excessive, I think they help stabilize the soil. You may want to cut back on your lime though.

So what's the "smoke" that comes off of it when I wet it? Is that just dust or is it off gassing?
Maybe best to throw a little in the worm bin?
I'm liking using it to make vertical columns in the soil, cutting back on the ratio in the mix. In my 6" pots, I have 1 column directly underneath the plants, on my 5 gallons, I have 3 columns shifted 60* to offset them about halfway up the pot, with a thin layer at the shift point. They should be ready to pull in another month so I can see how the roots reacted.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Ok, well what if you just put it in something like a tray with a certain size hole and let the water wash out the fines, instead of going through what seems to be an inordinate amount of trouble, not to mention risk, to sift them out dry?

You suggest cutting back on the lime, what form are you referring to? Dolomitic, which would therefore be putting a *lot* of carbonates (raising alkalinity; resistance to pH shift), or something else? And, whatever the answer, is that due to the chemistry of the calcined DE?

Right now I'm liking how rice hulls perform. I even like that it sprouts, I just whack 'em down or pull them up, whatever suits my fancy. So if calcined DE is more expensive than perlite, and perlite is several times more expensive than rice hulls, I'm going to be that much less likely to play around with the CDE unless there is some other significant benefit to it, which I'm not finding quite yet.
This is with specific regard mostly to building up all my soil(s), not just containerized soils.

Thanks in advance.

 

[h.h.]

I think it was Von that mentioned not sifting and using other cal mag resulting in burn., thats all I'm referring to. I don't haven't had that experience but I don't use other supplements.
If I had rice hulls, I would probably use less DE than I do. Nothing magic about it.

 

[jaykush]

id like to state that i do not and would not use DE through my whole medium. way too expensive. excellent for seed starting mixes.

 

[mad librettist]

Ok, well what if you just put it in something like a tray with a certain size hole and let the water wash out the fines, instead of going through what seems to be an inordinate amount of trouble, not to mention risk, to sift them out dry?

You suggest cutting back on the lime, what form are you referring to? Dolomitic, which would therefore be putting a *lot* of carbonates (raising alkalinity; resistance to pH shift), or something else? And, whatever the answer, is that due to the chemistry of the calcined DE?

Right now I'm liking how rice hulls perform. I even like that it sprouts, I just whack 'em down or pull them up, whatever suits my fancy. So if calcined DE is more expensive than perlite, and perlite is several times more expensive than rice hulls, I'm going to be that much less likely to play around with the CDE unless there is some other significant benefit to it, which I'm not finding quite yet.
This is with specific regard mostly to building up all my soil(s), not just containerized soils.

Thanks in advance.

absolutely you can not remove DE fines by rinsing, unless you have a special device that can generate lots of pressure. Water make the fines stick. When I compare material from the same batch, rinsed through a sieve rather than sifted dry, I get way fewer fines in the discard pile.

As for bare root vs. not rinsing off the DE -- I am a bare root transplant kinda guy. I have a knack for that. If you prefer another method, use it! Just be warned, unlike dirt, when you pull out your cut from the DE bed, the root ball will lose its shape. This smooshes the roots together, not at all the shape they had in the bed.


When I transplant from soil, I use something called a widger, which allows me to pull up the dirt supporting the seedling perfectly.





roots shouldn't go in your new medium all smooshed together. that's the important part. By spreading them out in a pile of new medium in my palm, then setting that into the new pot, I keep the roots spread out and I see little or no shock.

 

[mad librettist]

absolutely you can not remove DE fines by rinsing, unless you have a special device that can generate lots of pressure. Water make the fines stick. When I compare material from the same batch, rinsed through a sieve rather than sifted dry, I get way fewer fines in the discard pile. (about 66% less). Probably for rooting trays it's not necessary, although it will make a tray more "foolproof". If you have a lot of rooting trays, screening the fines out makes water management easier (as in no good judgment required)

As for bare root vs. not rinsing off the DE -- I am a bare root transplant kinda guy. I have a knack for that. If you prefer another method, use it! Just be warned, unlike dirt, when you pull out your cut from the DE bed, the root ball will lose its shape. This smooshes the roots together, not at all the shape they had in the bed.


When I transplant from soil, I use something called a widger, which allows me to pull up the dirt supporting the seedling perfectly. The dirt sticks to itself so there is no issue.





roots shouldn't go in your new medium all smooshed together. that's the important part. By spreading them out in a pile of new medium in my palm, then setting that into the new pot, I keep the roots spread out and I see little or no shock.

I'm going to be that much less likely to play around with the CDE unless there is some other significant benefit to it, which I'm not finding quite yet.

it's going to have minimal benefits for you, and maximum benefits for beginners.

advantages over rice hulls and perlite:

color change indicates moisture levels
holds enough water such that rooting trays can be free draining, reducing risk of rot
durability, durability, durability
higher CEC (clay chemical properties but physical properties are like a hybrid of clay and gravel)
replaces wetting agents/eliminates or reduces potential for hydrophobic medium
less waterings required without sacrificing air porosity


there are videos to be found on the subject on the page linked in my sig (media physical properties)


my next experimental mix will be topsoil, rice hulls, CDE, and compost. to pull it off long term, I need soil aggregates to form and give structure by the time the rice hulls break down. that means it' s gotta be mycorrhizal with no room for error. If I use more DE and less rice hulls, I have a greater margin for error but also less potential.

 

[Slimm]

Rice hulls plus CDE has been proven to be a good mix for the ppk crowd.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Mad, jay, VERY helpful, thank you.