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Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)
- Thread starter rives
- Start date
I am almost done building out my first actual grow room. Upgrading from a custom two chamber cabinet I've been running for the last couple years with a 250W HPS.
I decided to plunge into the CMH world and ordered the LEC 630. I started vegging some clones I had under the fixture and wow do I notice faster growth already after 3 days under it. This thing is bright for being 630 Watts of light. I don't have the space for two LEC 315s since I only have a 3.5' x 3' footprint set up for flowering. There will be some overlap with the bulbs being in the same fixture but I don't have or notice any hot spots in the center. It is distributed quite well with the reflector. It will also not run as efficient due to the horizontal orientation and supplied with only 120V, but that doesn't matter since I over-sized my light anyway. The reflector isn't as deep as the 315 either so I can utilize more vertical space if I need it. I think I should have enough light for this footprint. I hear the 630 rivals a 1000W HPS.
There is a pink glow in the pic. Could be due to taking it with my phone, but this thing emits a pure white light, very nice. Should be up and running early next month. Started germing my new beans last night. Critical Jack, Blue Dream, and Chocolope. Going to run two of each under this bad boy through veg and flower.
I decided to plunge into the CMH world and ordered the LEC 630. I started vegging some clones I had under the fixture and wow do I notice faster growth already after 3 days under it. This thing is bright for being 630 Watts of light. I don't have the space for two LEC 315s since I only have a 3.5' x 3' footprint set up for flowering. There will be some overlap with the bulbs being in the same fixture but I don't have or notice any hot spots in the center. It is distributed quite well with the reflector. It will also not run as efficient due to the horizontal orientation and supplied with only 120V, but that doesn't matter since I over-sized my light anyway. The reflector isn't as deep as the 315 either so I can utilize more vertical space if I need it. I think I should have enough light for this footprint. I hear the 630 rivals a 1000W HPS.
There is a pink glow in the pic. Could be due to taking it with my phone, but this thing emits a pure white light, very nice. Should be up and running early next month. Started germing my new beans last night. Critical Jack, Blue Dream, and Chocolope. Going to run two of each under this bad boy through veg and flower.
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That's an enormous amount of light in such a small enclosure, easily the equivalent of 80-90 watts/sq.ft. from standard HID.
I've experimented with running as low as 20w/sq ft, but usually go with 40-50. The new spot that I've been working on is set up for 75, but from my experience, I doubt that I will run over 50 in it. I think that the LEC fixtures use the Philips ballasts, so they could be run with (2) 210 lamps or dimmed, but it would probably take some modifications to utilize the dimming circuit. The spectrum apparently shifts a bit when running dimmed, though.
I get excellent results w/ 62.5w/sq/ft using conventional HID. 1000w over a 4x4 space. Even if the 315's put out 50% more useable light per watt, I'd want 40w/sq/ft of CMH.
Dunno that higher intensities are a problem for the plants, but the increased wattage per sq/ft. may not have enough of a positive effect to warrant the expense. If TBH can expand his footprint to 16 sq/ft, I figure he'd do great.
I'm strongly considering going with 630w of CMH in our space to cut our power usage, which is atrocious, anyway. I could dial down the ventilation to make it even quieter, too, make carbon filters last longer at the same time.
A guy on Denver Clist dropped the price of new philips ballasts to $100 ea. Even at that, the upgrade would run $400 with a lot of DIY... selling off the 1000w hardware would recoup some of that. I'd be very lucky to get $200 for 2 mag ballasts, 1 reflector & lamps.
Financial considerations are different when you don't sell the stuff. Or I'm just cheap, or something.
I could reconfigure the footprint to 5 x 3.5 if I need to, but I'll see how it does in this one first.
About the heat, I can hold my hand on the top of the fixture above the bulbs and not have to remove it. Even over the ballasts I don't have to remove my hand. The ambient in there after 8 hours of lights on with no ventilation is 80F. I kick on the oscillating fan and crack the door a little and it goes down to 75. It is going to take minimal ventilation. I welcome the heat since this room is in a cool basement.
I threw some vegging plants and a clone that just started growth under it for the last five days and they responded well at 24" away. After 4 days even the small clone is shooting out new growth. It is probably at 30" away. So far I'm loving this light. 1.5-2 years per bulb set is going to be nice also.
Good luck with it all, for sure. And you're making me jealous, damn it.
Hey Liagro, I fancy we were talking the other day, is it P?
I said I'd drop you an update on how the e paps performed,
basically the setup was a roughly 2.4 x 1.2 x 1.8 high,
I imagined some difficulties with heat, reading height suggestions,
I ran the beauties @750watts ea and placed them just 18 inches above the canopy, surprisingly no bleaching, no burning, with my 600 gavi would've burned without a doubt
finishing up at 18" they pulled (to my surprise) a nice healthy 64oz of great quality Exo,
peace,
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1. No
2. Between wall outlet and transformer. Rate it properly though. Some cheap ones are only 400W or so. Oversize the wattage by 20%.
I'd say by at least 20%. One of our contributors had problems using a 750w transformer to fire 630w of CMH, iirc. The fuses popped instantly when he turned it on due to inrush current.
I'd honestly say that 50% oversize wouldn't be excessive in light of that, but I have no experience. Price differentials are small, shifting it all into the better safe than sorry realm. There's nothing more frustrating than having something I think should work not work because I didn't spend a little more just to be sure.
Makes sense. I'd think that timing off, making the flip & timing back on would would reset the ballasts. It'd be slightly less than 12 hrs of light, but I doubt it would matter.
Stopped in Green Grow Michigan to see this Sun System LEC 315 in person. They did not have one in stock but can order them and get them out quickly at a good price.
Turns out I was the first person to come in there looking for the LEC 315 or CMH technology.
Doubtful that any of these grow stores will know anything as this is real new 'stuff" for them, 4 other stores I stopped in knew nothing at all.
The manager that I talked to was named Jeff, I filled him in on this light and the increasing interest in this technology - advised him to get ahead of the pack because this is going to explode imho....
http://growgreenmi.com/sun-system-le...20-volt-w-lamp for $435.73.
Jeff said he wants your business, they have a large warehouse of grow supplies with some damn good prices.
Turns out I was the first person to come in there looking for the LEC 315 or CMH technology.
Doubtful that any of these grow stores will know anything as this is real new 'stuff" for them, 4 other stores I stopped in knew nothing at all.
The manager that I talked to was named Jeff, I filled him in on this light and the increasing interest in this technology - advised him to get ahead of the pack because this is going to explode imho....
http://growgreenmi.com/sun-system-le...20-volt-w-lamp for $435.73.
Jeff said he wants your business, they have a large warehouse of grow supplies with some damn good prices.
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Those "piece of crap" gavita reflectors blow every other HPS system on the market out of the water. Don't knock it until you've tried it homie. One of the intentions wit the system was to have a cheap reflector insert that can be changed as the reflectivity diminishes (as it does in ALL reflectors). Change the bulb every year and a half, the reflector every time or two and you are shitting in tall cotton.
Sounds like he has a start up current draw issue, not timer wattage rating issue. During startup the voltage will be lower and current will be higher. Lamps are a big inductive load that require a jolt of high current to get going.
Fuses popping isn't caused by or related to the timer. The fuses were probably incorrect values or fast blow, not slow time delayed fuses. For heavy inductive loads you will need time delayed fuses. (ie: slo-blo)
It is likely the fuse(s) wasn't/weren't rated properly. The ballast should have a start up rating for current. Here is the typical current draw of common HID ballasts.
250w start up amps = 2.3 ; running amps = 1.5
400w start up amps = 3.6 ; running amps = 2.3
6000w start up amps = 4.5 ; running amps = 3.2
1,000w start up amps = 7.0 ; running amps = 5.0
Here is the current draw for the Philips Mastercolor CDM-T Elite 315W T12 CL Agro bulb:
4.7 Amps start-up
3.15 Amps running
So for the transformer you have the equation:
Given that Power in = Power out,
Input current = Power ÷ input voltage
Input Current = 750W ÷ 120 (or 240 if you are running it)
Input Current = 6.25A
Derate that by 20-25%:
6.25 ÷ .80 = 7.8 Amps
6.25 ÷ .75 = 8.33 Amps
So an 8 Amp slo-blo fuse on the primary side of the transformer should work fine. That is at the full 750W of output, so at 630W it shouldn't blow ever.
Also, most appliance timers from Wal-Mart or other dept. stores aren't meant to run large ballasts of any kind. Wall plug-in appliance timers are not built to handle the inrush current created by large ballasts. Even though it may appear that it is rated for it, there’s different types of electrical loads and the timers usually aren’t rated to handle a large 400-1000W ballast load. When trying to control your lights you should use the appropriate Light Controller which are built specifically to handle the load from ballast. They might work for a bit until they get stressed enough to fail. Happened to me when I was a rookie. Scared me because the plastic casing melted a little. Now I ensure I am running properly rated equipment.
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I may have misunderstood in post #214 above. I was referencing the transformer rather than the timer.
Changing transformer fuses for slow blow models will likely work, although I really don't like doing things that way. Upgrading the transformer gives plug & play operation.
Timers are def a weak link & one not well understood by most peeps. They're necessarily de-rated for inductive & capacitive loads like ballasts & motors. Most have a motor HP rating, far less than the resistive load rating. 1 HP = 746 watts, so a timer rated for 1/2 HP should safely handle one 315w system. The GE 15075 is one of only a few plug in wall timers rated at 1/2 HP. Going beyond that rules out plug in wall timers entirely. For DIY, an intermatic T-101 is a good choice up to 2 HP. Old school bulletproof. For plug & play, a controller is required. Advanced DIY'ers can use panel timers & power relays or contactors to increase power handling from there. A bit of overkill is never a bad idea.
I share Rives' concerns about the safety & build quality of controllers. I haven't used them, but I'd want any to be UL, CE or ETL listed. When the subject is really about burning down the house, it's important to use quality equipment.
I also dislike the fiddly methods required to set up electronic timers.
Changing transformer fuses for slow blow models will likely work, although I really don't like doing things that way. Upgrading the transformer gives plug & play operation.
Timers are def a weak link & one not well understood by most peeps. They're necessarily de-rated for inductive & capacitive loads like ballasts & motors. Most have a motor HP rating, far less than the resistive load rating. 1 HP = 746 watts, so a timer rated for 1/2 HP should safely handle one 315w system. The GE 15075 is one of only a few plug in wall timers rated at 1/2 HP. Going beyond that rules out plug in wall timers entirely. For DIY, an intermatic T-101 is a good choice up to 2 HP. Old school bulletproof. For plug & play, a controller is required. Advanced DIY'ers can use panel timers & power relays or contactors to increase power handling from there. A bit of overkill is never a bad idea.
I share Rives' concerns about the safety & build quality of controllers. I haven't used them, but I'd want any to be UL, CE or ETL listed. When the subject is really about burning down the house, it's important to use quality equipment.
I also dislike the fiddly methods required to set up electronic timers.
TBM, good post. Sola recommends a 10a slow-blow fuse for a 120v primary on a 750va transformer with no secondary protection. ("You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to T_B_M again.")
I would not have recommended a slow-blow fuse the first time that this came up if it wasn't good practice. If the fusing is applied to the primary side of the transformer, then the fuse needs to be sized for the transformer inrush as well as for the connected load inrush. Since a transformer is an inductive device similar to a motor, this combined inrush can be very substantial.
Per the NEC, for circuits with primary fusing on a transformer with a primary current from 2 amps but less than 9 amps, the maximum fuse size is found by by finding 167% of the transformer full load current and stepping down to the next available fuse size when using Class J fuses (slow-blow). Looking at the time-current curve for a 5 amp Class J fuse, this fuse will support a 20a load for 30 seconds, and a 10a fuse will hold a 40a load for the same period.
I think that the manufacturer is using cheap, undersized fuses to reduce warranty issues. Substantially over-sizing a transformer carries it's own problems in both efficiency and the potential for providing excessive current under short-circuit conditions.
Sola fusing recommendations - http://www.solahevidutysales.com/pdf/transformers/Fusing.pdf
Time-current curves for Class J fuses - http://www1.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/2736b561-c477-4fc9-85de-5b0853ac0078.pdf
I would not have recommended a slow-blow fuse the first time that this came up if it wasn't good practice. If the fusing is applied to the primary side of the transformer, then the fuse needs to be sized for the transformer inrush as well as for the connected load inrush. Since a transformer is an inductive device similar to a motor, this combined inrush can be very substantial.
Per the NEC, for circuits with primary fusing on a transformer with a primary current from 2 amps but less than 9 amps, the maximum fuse size is found by by finding 167% of the transformer full load current and stepping down to the next available fuse size when using Class J fuses (slow-blow). Looking at the time-current curve for a 5 amp Class J fuse, this fuse will support a 20a load for 30 seconds, and a 10a fuse will hold a 40a load for the same period.
I think that the manufacturer is using cheap, undersized fuses to reduce warranty issues. Substantially over-sizing a transformer carries it's own problems in both efficiency and the potential for providing excessive current under short-circuit conditions.
Sola fusing recommendations - http://www.solahevidutysales.com/pdf/transformers/Fusing.pdf
Time-current curves for Class J fuses - http://www1.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/2736b561-c477-4fc9-85de-5b0853ac0078.pdf
