Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[timmur]

FWIW, I've been advised by cycloptics that a single c/g in a highly reflective 3x3 tent will perform reasonably on par with the 4x8 model for my 6 lamp system. I'm mainly curious to see if the phantom can offer similar uniformity/intensity, especially when air-cooled. I'm also curious to see how much heat is trapped by an open phantom. I'll bet money right now that it's more than the c/g. I wish I had the space/time/$$$ to do something more "scientific", but this is the best I can do/afford at the moment. I actually am a closet grower, unlike the guy with the 1575watt+ veg room. Doing the tests will make me feel good, and that's what it's really about anyway

I wasn't trying to talk smack about your testing efforts, BTW EZ! I just meant that scientific testing using yield as a metric is not going to happen. Your testing will be incredibly valuable for everyone! Thanks for doing it.

 

[Hammerhead]

lol, Even with 2kw for veg and 3kw for flower this is still tiny compared to any commercial grower I know. My closet's happen to be 10 x 12 and 8 x 15..

 

[Key Ran]

Thanks for the input! That's what I wanted to hear, a good ballast that can fire maybe a solis tek 10k as well as this beauty cmh... I'm sold.... but pray say, what are you talking about this white hps ?? Any info at all ? New tech ? I have to say, if its from Hortilux, I am skeptical.. There bulbs and kelvin temperatures, prices and explanations to questions all seem a bit sleazy vacuum salesman to me, pumping disinformation such as this :

Someone asked on Hortilux's site why the Hortilux Blue MH bulbs at different wattages had drastically different kelvins, like the 400w is 4.5k, the 600w, is 5.5k and the 1000w is 6.5k ... They explain this away that kelvin does not matter at all, and that they have what a plant needs to grow.... A very ambiguous and in my opinion dishonest response...

That said I'll still love to check out the new technology.. Any links or more info?

 

[Key Ran]

I just ran the allstart 860 on platinum ballast for half a cycle (my phantom DE bit it) , it's a great combo and you'll get far more from it running it on a platinum or baddass , there will be some new names soon, I feel like a broken record, hortilux has a "white hps "coming soon along with DE lamps.

Thanks for the input! That's what I wanted to hear, a good ballast that can fire maybe a solis tek 10k as well as this beauty cmh... I'm sold.... but pray say, what are you talking about this white hps ?? Any info at all ? New tech ? I have to say, if its from Hortilux, I am skeptical.. There bulbs and kelvin temperatures, prices and explanations to questions all seem a bit sleazy vacuum salesman to me, pumping disinformation such as this :

Someone asked on Hortilux's site why the Hortilux Blue MH bulbs at different wattages had drastically different kelvins, like the 400w is 4.5k, the 600w, is 5.5k and the 1000w is 6.5k ... They explain this away that kelvin does not matter at all, and that they have what a plant needs to grow.... A very ambiguous and in my opinion dishonest response...

That said I'll still love to check out the new technology.. Any links or more info?

 

[timmur]

lol, Even with 2kw for veg and 3kw for flower this is still tiny compared to any commercial grower I know. My closet's happen to be 10 x 12 and 8 x 15..

Well that's a big closet! I'm thinking that yield differences certainly do apply at that scale.

 

[Hammerhead]

Remember I don't flower with CMH. There really not big spaces. I wish I had 3x that. Then I WOULD NEED HELP. Yields are rarely the same using gavita/Epap. I'm always growing mixed cultivar..That's always changing. I have 6 cuts that I keep around. No more than 3 plants of the same are run.

 

[iBogart]

Here's a dumb question. Got a pgz18 socket with two white wires. I don't know heads from tails. Anybody know whats up wiring this thing to a hydrofarm fixture using the hydrofarm ballast cord? The socket is made by Yacht electronics if that helps.

 

[GET MO]

im thinkin bout getting a little 3x3 tent and running a 315 in it with just a few tester plants all the way through flower. would be a fun side project...

 

[rives]

Has anyone else had problems with CMH bulbs blowing on startup? I've had 3 blow on me in the last 2 weeks, I'm currently trying to get a refund on my ballast from Cycloptics. I've been doing this for 15 years and have never had an HPS bulb fail. These don't seem reliable on remote ballasts. If there's any power interruption or failure to ignite the bulb gets fried while HPS is fine. Based on my experience I would say run one of the 240v rigs above or stick to HPS.

I am replacing the two CMH rigs in my 4X4 with a P.L. HSE 600w HPS fixture. 1190 umols, more efficient than CMH. Bulb is at 94% after 2 years as well. My experiment is over, the CMH light is going to my veg tent.

I am becoming a skeptic of this tech. If you check the Univ. of Utah research, the YPF is actually higher with Philips HPS than with 315 CMH - .95 for HPS to .90 for CMH. That is the ratio of YPF to PPF. So at the same PAR number (umol) the Philips HPS is giving you 5.5% more photosynthetic light. Take a look:

https://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/All-Bright Technical Review.pdf

according to this, the 600 PL lamp will give me 1190 umol * .95 = 1130.5 YPF. Two 315w CMH will give me .898 * 1202 = 1079 YPF. So the PL HPS is giving me more PAR light with 30 watts less electricity and better bulb life.

Also, the data shows that the CMH Agro bulb does not impart any more UV than the HPS either. Not sure where that idea came from. The 4300K Philips bulb has more UVA than HPS. But the HPS bulb has more UV than the 315 Agro bulb.

I've been running the 315's for several years now on some of the flakiest power on Earth and haven't lost a lamp. All are remote ballasted, but they are all Philips ballasts on 240v.

The HPS lamp has excellent lumen maintenance with a 4% advantage, but any difference in lifespan is related to which 315 you are comparing it to - I use the T9 930 and it's projected lifespan is 50% longer than the HPS at 30k hours. Some of the other lamps have shorter lifespans than the one I use, but even at that they are the same as the HPS at 20k hours.

From the looks of that chart, if you REALLY want to optimize your YPF/PPF ratio, you should run a black light.......

 

[Ez Rider]

I wasn't trying to talk smack about your testing efforts, BTW EZ! I just meant that scientific testing using yield as a metric is not going to happen. Your testing will be incredibly valuable for everyone! Thanks for doing it.

No worries, I'm just hoping it shows SOMETHING. The sarcasm wasn't for you. Not just yield, but overall quality, total electric use, etc. My electric bill is down ~15% with the new system.

Well that's a big closet! I'm thinking that yield differences certainly do apply at that scale.

 

[Jhhnn]

Here's a dumb question. Got a pgz18 socket with two white wires. I don't know heads from tails. Anybody know whats up wiring this thing to a hydrofarm fixture using the hydrofarm ballast cord? The socket is made by Yacht electronics if that helps.

The smaller pin on the lamp is theoretically the positive, likely black that's now wired to the center of your mogul socket.

I experimented a little when testing my hardware, discovered that the lamps aren't polarity sensitive, anyway...

 

[iBogart]

The smaller pin on the lamp is theoretically the positive, likely black that's now wired to the center of your mogul socket.

I experimented a little when testing my hardware, discovered that the lamps aren't polarity sensitive, anyway...

Thanks man. Didn't want to risk ruining this bulb.

 

[Hammerhead]

I disagree, they certainly will not apply. I don't see it never have. Just because I have a much larger space than you is irreverent. yields will not scale because of a reflectors use. Many things can impact yield to say a reflector is causing larger yields isn't going to happen. I have used many different types of reflectors there's no way I can say 1 made the yields better. If you don't agree just say that and move on. Round and round we go. I'm not into the drama.

 

[iBogart]

So there are 2 pro-level CMH rigs available - the PL/Dpap one, and this - made in the USA:

http://growershouse.com/sun-system-lec-315w-light-ceramic-mh-commercial-fixture-208-240-v-3100k

Note the compact reflector in both commercial models. The Sun System is bulkier but half the weight of the PL/Dpap 315.

http://www.pllight.com/products/fixtures/hse-daylight/

Has anyone else had problems with CMH bulbs blowing on startup? I've had 3 blow on me in the last 2 weeks, I'm currently trying to get a refund on my ballast from Cycloptics. I've been doing this for 15 years and have never had an HPS bulb fail. These don't seem reliable on remote ballasts. If there's any power interruption or failure to ignite the bulb gets fried while HPS is fine. Based on my experience I would say run one of the 240v rigs above or stick to HPS.

I am replacing the two CMH rigs in my 4X4 with a P.L. HSE 600w HPS fixture. 1190 umols, more efficient than CMH. Bulb is at 94% after 2 years as well. My experiment is over, the CMH light is going to my veg tent.

I am becoming a skeptic of this tech. If you check the Univ. of Utah research, the YPF is actually higher with Philips HPS than with 315 CMH - .95 for HPS to .90 for CMH. That is the ratio of YPF to PPF. So at the same PAR number (umol) the Philips HPS is giving you 5.5% more photosynthetic light. Take a look:

https://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/All-Bright Technical Review.pdf

according to this, the 600 PL lamp will give me 1190 umol * .95 = 1130.5 YPF. Two 315w CMH will give me .898 * 1202 = 1079 YPF. So the PL HPS is giving me more PAR light with 30 watts less electricity and better bulb life.

Also, the data shows that the CMH Agro bulb does not impart any more UV than the HPS either. Not sure where that idea came from. The 4300K Philips bulb has more UVA than HPS. But the HPS bulb has more UV than the 315 Agro bulb.

btw, am I a rep for PL Lighting? Hell no. But consider me the voice of commercial agriculture on this one! 75% of commersh agriculture uses PL lamps. If you want the PL/Dpap fixture in the US call a PL dealer such as Hummerts or Griffins and order one. There are also new PL dealers like Urban Gro in Colorado that are focused on selling this gear to the cannabis industry.

You're comparing a 600 watt light to a 315 watt light? Am I getting that right? And if I am, those number look awesome for a 315 watt light compared to the 600.

Nevermind. A beer and a bowl, missed that TWO part. Carry on.

 

[cudathrill]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDy9HVqBKDs/?taken-by=myco_fusion_a.b._ here are the pl 315 asked this guy for a price no reply yet looks like a sweet light

 

[Hammerhead]

I think he is comparing 2 315 vs 1 600.. I use 4200/942 bulbs I think that's what he meant. there is no 4300.

 

[timmur]

I disagree, they certainly will not apply. I don't see it never have. Just because I have a much larger space than you is irreverent. yields will not scale because of a reflectors use. Many things can impact yield to say a reflector is causing larger yields isn't going to happen. I have used many different types of reflectors there's no way I can say 1 made the yields better. If you don't agree just say that and move on. Round and round we go. I'm not into the drama.

You "seeing it" has nothing to do with it. A yield increase is fractional and actually applies to everyone. ROI does not. The closet grower doesn't see the ROI because the return takes so long against the costs of the improvement. As you scale up yield improvements that would not pay off at a smaller level can become viable at a larger scale. If this is not obvious to you, there's not much I can do to help you understand what I was saying.

If you argue that there is no or very little yield difference then your ROI will indicate that you shouldn't change a thing! I'm not here to debate the supposed yield benefits (though I have elsewhere) between GBs and other lighting tech. I'm here to say that simple math dictates a potential ROI. If a reflector improves yield, then it follows that there is an associated ROI with that. That is not debatable I hope!

I don't care to debate the merits of the GB reflector either. I already offered the logic on how a reflector could change yield. If you're not convinced that it offers anything in terms of yield then that ends the discussion.

 

[Hammerhead]

Last post I will make on this. What we are talking about is GB reflector vs any other as a yield increase nothing else. I agree to disagree I have said that for 2 days now. Just not possible for anyone to say GB has a reflector that produces bigger yields. Not 1 person has done any testing to prove this. For all we know Phantom produces larger yields there is no data to prove otherwise. everyone is just guessing at this point. Once there is some solid grow data to prove this im all for it.

If your talking about plant #'s in a large grow vs small grow of course there's going to be a yield increase..Small or large grow no data to show this yield increase from using a GB reflector vs any other is all I'm saying. I would guess that 10 GB VS 10 Phantoms or 2 GB vs 2 phantoms would produce similar results in those respective grows. Until we have solid grows like the one your doing and some using others tech my opinion stands.

 

[Ez Rider]

Has anyone else had problems with CMH bulbs blowing on startup? I've had 3 blow on me in the last 2 weeks, I'm currently trying to get a refund on my ballast from Cycloptics. I've been doing this for 15 years and have never had an HPS bulb fail. These don't seem reliable on remote ballasts. If there's any power interruption or failure to ignite the bulb gets fried while HPS is fine. Based on my experience I would say run one of the 240v rigs above or stick to HPS.

I had a few give out on me in the first few weeks of use, but that was due to shipping damage I'm pretty sure. They just fizzled/quit igniting, no explosion. The replacements have been running fine for the last 10 weeks.

You "seeing it" has nothing to do with it. A yield increase is fractional and actually applies to everyone. ROI does not. The closet grower doesn't see the ROI because the return takes so long against the costs of the improvement. As you scale up yield improvements that would not pay off at a smaller level can become viable at a larger scale. If this is not obvious to you, there's not much I can do to help you understand what I was saying.

If you argue that there is no or very little yield difference then your ROI will indicate that you shouldn't change a thing! I'm not here to debate the supposed yield benefits (though I have elsewhere) between GBs and other lighting tech. I'm here to say that simple math dictates a potential ROI. If a reflector improves yield, then it follows that there is an associated ROI with that. That is not debatable I hope!

I don't care to debate the merits of the GB reflector either. I already offered the logic on how a reflector could change yield. If you're not convinced that it offers anything in terms of yield then that ends the discussion.

You can lead a horse to water...

 

[frostqueen]

Anyway, moving on: I am hearing from a breeder friend now using sunlight's 630 LEC fixtures that he has been seeing a clear THC boost in his lab tests (he said 2-3% range) over his previous runs under Eye-Horti 1000k HPS lights. He said all other factors were the same. He's also seeing higher terpene numbers.

Anyone using CMH getting lab tests done on their flowers? I would think this is likely due to a better blue/ultraviolet output? I apologize if this has been discussed here or in that big CMH thread; I just don't have the time to wade through all that...