PH in Organics?

[jmansweed]

rockwool has a high pH. We typically soak it in low Ph water in preperation for roots. My rockwool only recieves water during this soak. I'll grow roots before my cubes dry out. So my initial pH is important in the sence that it will determine the eventual pH my roots will grow in.

 

[grapeman]

Hey Verdant,

Have you ever tried gypsum? I've only really used it for salt damage, but I've heard tell it corrects alkaline soil for a time.

I use, and have used gypsum by the 40,000 lb. truckloads. But that is in larger scale ag applications. Where I need to augment the soil on a large scale, usually for water penetration (through clay lenes or stratas) with high alkaline or high sodium water.

While gypsum IMO it cannot hurt anything really (and has some sulfer and calcium benefits), I don't quite see why you would need it here.

Why? Because on this crop, most of us grow in a controlled environment. We mix and make our own soil and we RO our water. With a good and proper soil mix and good water, the need for gypsum (or the benefits thereof) would be minimal.

But that said, it cannot hurt and may help a bit if your soil and water is not dialed in 100%.

My 2 cents.

 

[maryjohn]

I agree grapeman, but people have their goals and that should be respected. I could sit here all day telling the very experienced Verdant how to think of things, but I prefer to work in his system and try to help out (at the moment). If I don't suggest it he can't reject it. Verdant does this for a living (not the MJ), so if he wants to changes his mind, he knows he has to be damn sure, beyond some guy he doesn't know telling him online. That's just reasonable. I resisted vociferously, and I had nothing to lose. Plus, by asking all the tough questions, he's keeping people honest.

I had suggested the gypsum as a way to lower pH, which is what it does to alkaline soils, or so I'm told.

What I really think that the best way to regulate nutrient uptake is microbially. If the microbe population is what and who you want, then everything else is probably fine. Otherwise you have an egg without a chicken. So in 9 cases out ten people are using 20% organic matter from the start, and all the pH recommendations and charts of nutrient availability become literally incorrect (not sure in what way exactly, but I know the ranges are too narrow), from a chemistry perspective. Sorry, I don't have anything to cite. I'm not a soil scientist and don't even have a science degree of any kind.

Nute availability charts are based on science not involving a medium based on organic matter. Add the organic matter, and the chemistry literally changes. I am told this happens at 10% OM. I think LC mix starts with 20%.

And I don't think it's necessarily about what the plant prefers. I know from experience cannabis seems to prefer tons of chicken shit. Grows like crazy. MIxing up you soil is about trying to give an approximation the environment in which the organism evolved to compete, or departing from that to achieve an intended result (perfectly valid).

Many cacti are quite happy in fertile soil. Very happy. The reason they don't live there is they have evolved to compete in the dessert, and can't match the aggressive growth of surrounding organisms.


Rooting- doesn't this depend on technique? I use vermiculite/perlite half and half, out of habit. Dead of winter, and I have two cuts of menage a trois that just started showing roots after 5 days. Not bad. No hormones. Should I assume it has anything to do with pH? I think it's the avoidance of hormone powder. When they look ready I will spoon them out with a widger, and drop that in soil.

Montana - I am willing to make a friendly bet that the plants you saw in the salt flats are being protected and assisted by microbes, and has evolved some physical traits along with the relationships it uses. Many people use bokashi to process salty leftovers, bread, and other high sodium foods, but I've never heard of it causing salt problems. Perhaps sodium is not a problem if you have the biomass to make use of it? I'm not sure.

 

[guest2012y]

Whoooaaaa!...Interesting. I use perlite/vermiculite in ph balanced well water with a touch of hormone...roots in 7 to 10 days @ 80 degrees. I don't even think of not using ph balanced water to soak the medium in. Even with a ph meter,the inconsistencies of water/nute mixes leave a sour taste in my mouth. I have recently begun thinking that the methods in which one mixes nutes has a lot to do with ph stability over a elapsed time. I have begun to mix my nutes,ph balance the mix,then wait for 24 hours and check the mix again. Sure enough,it's off at least half the time. I suspect chemical interactions between certain products,much like drug interactions in our body. What I would like to come across is a detailed description of these interactions(have not searched posts yet). There are so many organic amendments and name brands for products out there that I'm sure this would take a long term study about these interactions and the subsequent ph inbalances.......anyone hip on this shit??

 

[VerdantGreen]

.....
Why? Because on this crop, most of us grow in a controlled environment. We mix and make our own soil and we RO our water. With a good and proper soil mix and good water, the need for gypsum (or the benefits thereof) would be minimal.....

from what i read about gypsum it is not recommended for anything other than clay soil - but it does break up clay really well.
apparently the pH reducing properties only work well in clay too

hi grapeman, i dont RO my water, i just adjust the pH of my tap water after it's stood in the can for 24 hours or so. (otherwise its over 8.5)

nice post btw.
V.

 

[maryjohn]

hey verdant? you use citric acid, right?

Doesn't that have an added benefit of removing chlorine and chloramine?

 

[VerdantGreen]

yes citric acid - thats what the 'organic' pH down products are made of. i bought a pound of crystals from ebay that will last me about 5 years or so.

we dont have choramine - dont know about the chlorine but i let my water stand for a couple of days anyway

V.

 

[skunktoker]

yes citric acid - thats what the organic pH down products are made of. i bought a pound of crystals from ebay that will last me about 5 years or so.

we dont have choramine - dont know about the chlorine but i let my water stand for a couple of days anyway

V.

Same here verdant my water always sits a few days in open container before applying it................ST

 

[maryjohn]

it's funny verdant, if you say to me "I use citric acid to lower my pH", my mind goes "yeah, right.".

If you say "I add citric acid to my water and it seems to help my grow", my mind goes "oh cool.".


people are funny, eh?

 

[jmansweed]

Some organic growers feel there is little need to moniter pH. By choosing appropriate ingrediants in the soil to create a balanced microherd and by applying specific water they are ensuring the soil creates natural pH regulatory conditions. This means even when pH is considered not much of a priority in reality it is of great concern made evident by the attempt at maintaining a balanced microbial environment. Basically, maintaining your microherd is similar to maintaining the pH. It's all an attempt at creating proper nutreint absorption conditions."

This is what I was trying to say earlier MJ. I think your statement reinforces my point.

 

[jjfoo]

I have read that healthy soil regulates PH and that makes sense. Isn't rain water slightly on the acidic? I'd think that if we did adjust the PH to be like rain water the microbes would have the most natural environment. By the way I don't adjust PH of my soil grows, just wondering.

 

[maryjohn]

well no, jjfoo, if you add something to rain water that makes the pH go up, then something else to take it down, it's even further (farther?) from "natural" than it was before the 2nd action. The pH pen can't tell, but you already know it to be fact.

 

[jjfoo]

just to be clear, I am not advocating adjusting PH just curious

I read this online:

"H2CO3 is carbonic acid. Carbonic acid doesn't actually exist as a pure compound. It the same thing as carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O). You dose "H2CO3" by adding CO2. It's a great way to lower pH."
from: http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9811/msg00462.html

Couldn't you make RO water into rain water by adding CO2
and come up with something closer to real rainwater than
RO or tap water?

by the way, I just realised I am assuming that rain water
is best... Do you know if other natural sources of water
are commonly acidic? I'd like to know if melted snow is
acidic.

 

[jjfoo]

I just found a link that talks about melted snow.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/wea00/wea00342.htm

This says pH depends on location.

"Snow pH

Name: Elizabeth
Status: educator
Grade:
Location: VA
Country: USA

Question: My students tested the pH of snow the other day and
discovered that the pH was about 7.8. Since the pH of "normal" rain
is 5.6 I was expecting something similar or lower. Could someone
please explain why our tests came out the way that it did? I have
been researching for days and have not found one article about this.
---------------------------------------
Elizabeth,

What you have found is not unusual.

When you say that the pH of normal rain is about 5.6,
you are speaking of rain that has fallen in a more
pristine area, such as the northern Rocky Mountains.

Rain that falls in most of the eastern part of the USA,
such as in VA, normally has a pH of about 4.4.

Snow in the eastern USA generally has a pH of somewhere
between 4.6 and 6.7 (this is also the common range in
Illinois, where I live).

Rain drops tend to form on different, and more acidic
nucleating particles (pollutants such as sulfates and nitrates)
and tends to more efficiently scavenge pollutants,
than snow does. Furthermore, snow often forms on smaller
nucleating particles than rain does and so when the
snow is melted to test for pH, the nucleating particle
(assuming that it dissolves) contributes less to acidifying
the water than usually happens with larger particles that
rain tends to form on. Snow can also form on non-hygroscopic
particles (such as soil, that do not easily dissolve in water),
which do not contribute much to acidifying the melted snow.
Therefore snow usually has a higher pH than rain.

The pH of snow can vary greatly (4.6 to 6.7 normally)
depending on where the air came from that it formed in.
If snow forms in relatively clean, unpolluted air during a
cold arctic or polar outbreak coming down from Canada, the
particulates on which the snow formed are likely to contain
little for acidifying pollutant particulates, resulting in
a higher pH than would result from snow formed in a cold
front that has originated in the southern part or the plains
of the USA.

A snow pH of 7.8 is unusually high, but is possible in very
clean air. The highest snow pH that I remember measuring
at our station here, west of Chicago, was 7.21, so you have bested
that by quite a bit."

 

[dmt]

thebest results ive had is always maintain coco solution at a solid 6.0, soiless at 6.2-6.5 and hydro at 5.5-5.8. i never thought to not ph, good luck, d

 

[maryjohn]

just to be clear, I am not advocating adjusting PH just curious

I read this online:

"H2CO3 is carbonic acid. Carbonic acid doesn't actually exist as a pure compound. It the same thing as carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O). You dose "H2CO3" by adding CO2. It's a great way to lower pH."
from: http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9811/msg00462.html

Couldn't you make RO water into rain water by adding CO2
and come up with something closer to real rainwater than
RO or tap water?

by the way, I just realised I am assuming that rain water
is best... Do you know if other natural sources of water
are commonly acidic? I'd like to know if melted snow is
acidic.

Just to tie things together with another branch of science...

Are you familiar with concerns over ocean acidification? Basically, as atmospheric CO2 concentration goes up, most of the excess is absorbed by the ocean in the form of, you guessed it, carbonic acid.

Now normally, all the dead microbes (microbes with shells - name escapes me - are plankton microbes? ) and shellfish and whatnot at the bottom of the ocean buffers the carbonic acid. The reason they come into contact is primarily convection (which happens in water, air, and even the earth itself. ). Look up convection so you see a diagram, it's better than explaining it. Or put yesterday's pot roast on the stove if the juice is clear enough, and you can see it happen.

We are putting so much CO2 so fast, that the ocean can't balance, and the pH is dropping, which is eating away at creatures that wear shells, corals, etc... If the plankton with shells population collapses, it will be cataclysmic.

So there you go, carbonic acid in the news.

 

[Castelvetro]

u get the ph right before u feed or around the sweet spot and your get better growth, it may be as easy as useing filter water which generally has a lower ph or a tap which were i am is two points higher. its not always about adjusting things, sometime its about knowing were things are and useing them accordingly when need be. ph is crucial. i use coco but since getting a ph test kit now realize that filtered water is the only water i should flush with as its in the sweet spot for allowing solubility of remaining salts to be used up. even if u grow organic, gain some insight into ph, knowledge is always good.

 

[jjfoo]

thebest results ive had is always maintain coco solution at a solid 6.0, soiless at 6.2-6.5 and hydro at 5.5-5.8. i never thought to not ph, good luck, d

coco is soiless in my opinion and yes I would run coco with a pH meter

 

[jjfoo]

ph is crucial.

I don't think anyone disagrees that pH affects the plant and/or nutrient uptake, I just think that some people say it is handled automatically with health soil.

 

[Castelvetro]

i agree with u, there is those rare cases were someones well water is a 9 and problems arise but i agree about organics being self regulating