Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aeration amendments

[heady blunts]

i have a humidity dome over my tray, and it's created a very stable water cycle. i think most of the moisture is condensing on the sides and returning to the medium. i do have some vents at the top to allow air exchange, but it doesn't seem to allow significant evaporation (way different (read: better in every way) experience than cloning in the same tray/dome with rockwool and spraying regularly for humidity).

 

[mad librettist]

Update on napa 8822 calcined DE:

I can confirm a "liming" effect, but I can also confirm no problems from also using dolomite (peat mix) as usual.

I figured out the pH effect by trying to grow a species very sensitive to alkalinity (no tapwater allowed). it does fine in 50/50 peat/perlite. but with DE as a perlite replacement, I have very clear and potentially fatal nutrient poisoning/burn. I don't have a pH pen, but there is no other explanation.

I have transplanted into a new mix with pumice and peat. If the plant recovers, I will be extra confident in my conclusion.

 

[heady blunts]

Update on napa 8822 calcined DE:

I can confirm a "liming" effect, but I can also confirm no problems from also using dolomite (peat mix) as usual.

I figured out the pH effect by trying to grow a species very sensitive to alkalinity (no tapwater allowed). it does fine in 50/50 peat/perlite. but with DE as a perlite replacement, I have very clear and potentially fatal nutrient poisoning/burn. I don't have a pH pen, but there is no other explanation.

I have transplanted into a new mix with pumice and peat. If the plant recovers, I will be extra confident in my conclusion.

i'm confused. did you lime the 50/50 mix and not the DE mix? or did you lime both of them? or does peat naturally have a high pH?

please explain a little more?

 

[vonforne]

Great posting DM

Great posting DM

just hoping this doesnt complicate something thats pretty simple
drainage and aeration
perlite,composted woodchips,char,pumice have all worked very well for me. clearly thought out soil,in design and a grower dedicated to guiding microbes for lush growth does alot.

simple good water management & mulching, will prevent water stress on your plants & keep your perlite (if thats what ur using) from rising to the top.
lots and lots of things can be used to help ur soil texture;my 2cents is use a diversity of paticle size,ratio depends on the feel.

Great posting DM. You have the correct approach here. A true OFC man!!!

V

 

[mad librettist]

Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aeration amendments

i'm confused. did you lime the 50/50 mix and not the DE mix? or did you lime both of them? or does peat naturally have a high pH?

please explain a little more?

I did not lime the 50/50. that soil is meant to simulate bog conditions - acidic and wet with no nutrients. peat/perlite with nothing else is the standard for this species.

I am also reporting no problems doing the usual with peat mixes that call for lime, and substituting calcined DE for perlite.


in other words DE has a liming effect strong enough to kill a very sensitive species but for cannabis it wasn't a problem.

 

[heady blunts]

nice.

does that mean that replacing the perlite with DE in a mix would make adding dolomite lime redundant?

also, what do you soak your DE in before you add it?

 

[mad librettist]

Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aeration amendments

Great posting DM. You have the correct approach here. A true OFC man!!!

V

Vonforne have you sampled this calcined DE? if you had, you might need to redefine "working really well" to not include perlite.

I think it's called Kieselguhr in your parts, and I suggest giving it a try before I accuse you as well of being no fun at all.

 

[mad librettist]

Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aeration amendments

nice.

does that mean that replacing the perlite with DE in a mix would make adding dolomite lime redundant?

also, what do you soak your DE in before you add it?

I don't have enough from this little trial to say you don't need lime, but it's enough to make it worth a shot.

I don't soak my DE in anything special. I mix everything up and water it with ACT.

 

[vonforne]

Kieselguhr

Kieselgur (femininum) (auch Bergmehl, Diatomeenerde, Diatomeenpelit, Diatomit, Infusorienerde, Kieselmehl, Novaculit, Tripel, Tripolit, Celit) ist eine weißliche, pulverförmige Substanz, die hauptsächlich aus den Siliciumdioxidschalen fossiler Kieselalgen (Diatomeen) besteh.

is Diatomaceous earth and yes it is incorporated in my mix.

V

 

[mad librettist]

Vonforne, how is it incorporated in your mix?

We are talking calcined DE chunks, in the neighborhood of 1/8th inch. Es ist Kein pulverförmige Substanz (aber es war).


It leaves perlite and pumice, pardon the pun, in the dust. To boot, when it's the size I am recommending, it stores its water internally, meaning the space between it and the next particle can still hold air.

You get more air + more water than with perlite or pumice, and better durability compared to perlite.

you get to eliminate wetting agents.

Also no fluoride mentioned in this thread.

You get close to the same benefits from something like turface, minus the liming effect I am told (I have a bag I am plying with.

Rooting clones? You can simply drench with water, and it will drain like sand but hold enough water for rooting (I water once and that's it)

 

[vonforne]

ich habe die pulver und ich habe tongravel nicht perlit. Perlit ist scheise!!

The things you all have in America are sometimes harder to find here. Like Seaweed.......but I have tons of Brown coal, Steinmehl etc since Germany has tons of mines up north.

Have you ever used clay gravel?

Larger aprtical size
Water holding capacity
Aeration
plus as it breaks down provides minerals in the soil.

It is one of the resources I use here. Cheap and can buy it at every Home Depot type store in Europe.

Must source these things.

V

 

[mad librettist]

Holy shit! I think I finally put it together.

I was going around all over last year asking for clay gravel based on reading your thread. Nobody knew anything. Now it just dawned on me... is that fired clay?

try this test. take a bag/bucket of your clay gravel and spray it good with water, like 5 pumps from a hand sprayer. If it's what I think it is, the water will disappear and the surface will be bone dry dry within 10 seconds.

If it works, you basically have turface, so when you talk to americans you know what to say now.

So the calcined DE? it's even better than that! You may have it around and not know it. Check car supply places for their oil spill pickup supplies. Truly amazing stuff, will not break down in your lifetime.

I have wigglers in my pots, and when I leave them on a calcined DE humidity tray, the worms all run to the DE and would rather hang out in there.

EDIT: another source for anyone to try is your local football clubs. or rather, the company that manages the turf.

 

[Stoned Crow]

So the calcined DE? it's even better than that! You may have it around and not know it. Check car supply places for their oil spill pickup supplies. Truly amazing stuff, will not break down in your lifetime.

So ML, are you talking about using DE more than you would use any amendment? What percentage of DE of your soil mix are you talking about? I've added DE to my mix now and again, mostly for bug control. I know a ton of people here hate perlite, but I haven't found anything that I can replace it with........SC

 

[big ballin 88]

I found the best thing for me is what Secondtry got me on. The aged pine bark fine and ground biochar gave me the best results, as they help change the texture of peat in so many ways.

Biochar added a certain soil feel to the peat and really transformed it; holds water longer and no more hydrophobic-ness if completely dry. I cant stress how much it makes peat into soil, while adding some bulk density which is really needed for straight peat/coco. I recently learned that too large of a piece of biochar is not neccearrily a good thing lol. What are exhibited in my mixes are the benefits as seen in Terra Preta essentially.

The aged pine bark give you a good combination of air pockets and water holding which perlite or vermiculite cannot equate to. The pore ratio on these is so small, that water is held inside until the roots break through the bark. Also, the pine bark and bio-char are soaked in a fish hydroslate or some sort of nitrogen rich nutrient source, which provides a slow release of nutrients, while giving back to the organic matter of peat during decomposition. As Darc Mind suggested, diversity is king and pine bark fines range in all sizes and hold different benefits depending upon their size and level of decomposition.

Lastly, Azomite and Zeolite help bring the mix together and really make a full spectrum soil which provide other benefits that perlite cannot. These sands are also needed after adding the bio-char since thinks may/may not get heavy and the minerals will break it up while providing various benefits.

 

[mad librettist]

Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aeration amendments

I found the best thing for me is what Secondtry got me on. The aged pine bark fine and ground biochar gave me the best results, as they help change the texture of peat in so many ways.

Biochar added a certain soil feel to the peat and really transformed it; holds water longer and no more hydrophobic-ness if completely dry. I cant stress how much it makes peat into soil, while adding some bulk density which is really needed for straight peat/coco. I recently learned that too large of a piece of biochar is not neccearrily a good thing lol. What are exhibited in my mixes are the benefits as seen in Terra Preta essentially.

The aged pine bark give you a good combination of air pockets and water holding which perlite or vermiculite cannot equate to. The pore ratio on these is so small, that water is held inside until the roots break through the bark. Also, the pine bark and bio-char are soaked in a fish hydroslate or some sort of nitrogen rich nutrient source, which provides a slow release of nutrients, while giving back to the organic matter of peat during decomposition. As Darc Mind suggested, diversity is king and pine bark fines range in all sizes and hold different benefits depending upon their size and level of decomposition.

Lastly, Azomite and Zeolite help bring the mix together and really make a full spectrum soil which provide other benefits that perlite cannot. These sands are also needed after adding the bio-char since thinks may/may not get heavy and the minerals will break it up while providing various benefits.

in the famous thread that started us looking for pine bark fines, 2ndtry also mentioned axis/playball for drainage and water holding. that is the calcined DE. it replaces perlite 1:1.

I'm hopefully getting some nine bark fines for the next run after the next. run.

 

[vonforne]

Seramis besteht aus gebranntem Ton und saugt Wasser wie ein Schwamm auf. Dieser Ton wird mit Luft aufgeschäumt, so dass sich eine Unzahl von Poren in unterschiedlichen Größen im Ton bilden. Dieser Ton wird nun gebrannt und dann zu einer einheitlichen Größe von ca. 0,5 cm gebrochen.

Aus diesen Poren entnimmt die Pflanze dann das Wasser. Die Hohlräume zwischen den Körnern dienen als Luftführung und haben sehr guten Einfluss auf das Wachstum der Wurzeln. Die Pflanze wird mit dem Erdballen in einen Topf gepflanzt, dabei sollte der Anteil von Seramis ca. zwei Drittel betragen und der Erdballen ...

ML, here is the one I am using. Works great. I also use the small rund kugels.

V

 

[DARC MIND]

It leaves perlite and pumice, pardon the pun, in the dust. To boot, when it's the size I am recommending, it stores its water internally, meaning the space between it and the next particle can still hold air.

what particile size of pumice & or perlite have u worked with mad?
what other aeration amendments have u used besides the most popular & our favorite perlite?

if this turface stuff is just something like clay gravel,then lots of kitty litter & or aquirium gravel could be considered as a alternative,in the US.
ive personally used a bag of clay gravel, for a fresh water aquarium, as a amendment & had swell results.

 

[mad librettist]

perlite - the only acceptable perlite I used was in a bag labeled large particles. the stuff from most nurseries is even worse. In all cases perlite is fragile and does not hold water and air like the infield conditioners do.

DE/turface particle size- about 1/8th inch. The napa product yields about 60% this size and 40% fines. The turface I just got looks ready to go out of the bag. The fines make a great substrate for a humidity tray/wicking watering tray

Pumice- i've used I guess what corresponds to (I think?) #2 and #3 gravel, and the size I have now is much chunkier than that.

others - vermiculite, chicken grit


If clay gravel is what you used for your aquarium, it's probably nothing like turface

kitty litter - actually, I've heard some of it is suitable. Always do a soak test for durability before adding to your mix. Some of the kitty litters turn into modeling clay.

 

[mad librettist]

Dieser Ton wird nun gebrannt

yup, fired clay.

I guess another way to compare it to turface is "does it hold a ridiculous amount of water, while it drains like sand." When I pour water into the stuff, it seems to disappear.

If Spurr would grace us with his presence, he might tel us more about something called "agsorb" that is supposed to be even better than DE or Turface.

 

[vonforne]

View First Unread Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aera

View First Unread Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aera

Ok, since I posted in here I will continue. I do believe your two threads need to be combined............

Now, as you know we are soil builders......those of us who have done this for a number of years. All of our parts...I will call them parts for now, are taken into condideration for many reasons. One being drainage, aeration and soil conditioning.

Myself, I look at each part as a working part of a machine. Without one the other is.....well just a part with no function. But combined with the other parts......it is a well running machine.

I look at the soil AND what I have available to use at that time. With time that could change but I generally work with what is on hand. So, comes the soil building part. I am not a band wagon jumper I like using what works.....not what some one else SAYS works. But I do take into consideration where the info comes from.

My current oil mix is

Peat, a little coco (sucks), char AND Clay gravel. With various admendments and nutrient additives. DE, guanos, rock powders and different types of composts. Why I came up with clay you ask? I could not find a quality perlit without ordering. All the products at the BauMarkt were poor quality. So, all those years of experience growing Basil made me start looking at what was available. I had Kiesel stien, 3 different sizes of clay, kat litter of various types and millions of different types of stein.

Automatically, my mind did the deduction that most have to think about and make threads about asking what is best for them. In my mind I came up with clay gravel and SOME clay pellets.....of various sizes. You see my mind did this automatically.........it made the choice of partical size for me. Why you ask.......because I can tell you what works with what as far as soil goes. Most growers with some experience can do this automatically.

Now over time and availablility I ADD things to the mix Which improve drainage etc. I am a Soil Builder!

Are you getting the direction I am going with this?

It takes more than just one part to make the plane fly. And the plane was not built in one day. It took time and planning.

So, I think this thread should be combined with the one in the Recycled forum.

V