passive plant killer

[ImaginaryFriend]

Um.

Do it.

Then take pics.

I guarantee PPK lovers care about the outcome.

I guarantee PPK lovers are here to help however they can.

Do it.

 

[SCROG McDuck]

McD:

Maybe I've got some wires crossed. Thought we had talked about the idea of a quieter grow being a desirable thing... Maybe it's a mis-memory, or I'm attributing a conversation with someone else to you...

My air pumps were consistently the loudest part of my RDWC set-ups. They had a god-awful vibration that would go through walls and I had a hard time managing, even with foam, and hanging, and rubberized feet on platforms and everything else.

You have a quite pump. Sweet. Not a problem then. Look forward to the implementation!

A month and a half to build out, huh? Guess I'll just have to be patient.

@jjfoo I have heavy felt ziptied to my media wick. It was pretty quick and pretty easy. I haven't showed roots penetrating the bottom reservoir, but I didn't veg my plants as long as D9 does. I also don't have any media in my reservoir. Don't know if this is good or bad. But it is the extent of my experience.

AAH!! Sound signature!!! <identifying me...

While the sound signature of my grow is droaning, I'm not 'hung up',
or limited by the noise the pumps make...
they are just a PITA. and no more air stones! it will be nice to have quiet...
well>>>>>>>>>>>quieter, anyway..

Felt... i lke it, maybe to be used on the inside of the 'pot' also, keeping debris from falling into the rez ..
maybe, some of the curtain liner I have left from 'trying' to make bigbudbill's bubble hash..
instead of screen/felt.. the possibilities are endless... once brought to mind.. my mind anyways..HAHAH!!

 

[SCROG McDuck]

Question, gurus'...

If one can grow a 5' tree in 3.5 gallon ppk 'pot',
can one assume that a 3' tree can be grown in a 2 gallon
ppk 'pot'? or 1 gallon?
maybe SOG in 20/32oz soda bottles w common rez?


D9, when moving from a 5/5gal ppk toa 5/3.5..
You are top watering 5/5, what... 6 oz every 2 hours, 24/7 .
Same assumption..5/3.5= 3oz every 2 hours.. or maybe less...??


and I do not understand the relevance of the 'air gap'..
2 inches vs 4 inches (for example).

 

[oldone]

Hi SCROG McDuck,

Question, gurus'...

If one can grow a 5' tree in 3.5 gallon ppk 'pot',
can one assume that a 3' tree can be grown in a 2 gallon
ppk 'pot'? or 1 gallon?
maybe SOG in 20/32oz soda bottles w common rez?

I'm growing in a 1 gallon pot and she'd be well over 3ft. She's 80% sativa so that might a factor.

and I do not understand the relevance of the 'air gap'..
2 inches vs 4 inches (for example).

The air gap allows us to manipulate the perched water table. Our ImaginaryFriend has written an excellent summary here.

see ya,
OO

 

[SCROG McDuck]

Hi SCROG McDuck,

I'm growing in a 1 gallon pot and she'd be well over 3ft. She's 80% sativa so that might a factor.



The air gap allows us to manipulate the perched water table. Our ImaginaryFriend has written an excellent summary here.

see ya,
OO

Yeah.. they look great old1.. 1 gallon ppk!??
Wait.. that's 1 plant?

Thanks for the link and re-reading it and what you have mentoned above, is to say:

If coco wicks 7 inches, there should be 6 inches of: 'air gap', plus the depth of the wick into the rez??
2" air gap, wick extends 4" into rez.. +1 inch into pot (7") for the plant, yes? from that 1 inch in the pot (plus top watering) is watering the whole plant...

 

[oldone]

Yeah.. they look great old1.. 1 gallon ppk!??
Wait.. that's 1 plant?

yup I call her The Bitch because she is a particularly harsh teacher. If you're bored (and a PPK grower is mostly bored) come on over to my second run thread. Its not a bad read...

If coco wicks 7 inches, there should be 6 inches of: 'air gap', plus the depth of the wick into the rez??
2" air gap, wick extends 4" into rez.. +1 inch into pot (7") for the plant, yes? from that 1 inch in the pot (plus top watering) is watering the whole plant...

Forget about the theory and plan on a 3.5" air gap. It eliminates the PWT in coco. Both D9 and I use it...not sure about IF though. Remember that it does not matter what depth your ppk rez is, just maintain a constant air gap and you're good to go.

Edit: maintaining the air gap boils down to controlling the ppk rez depth. I use a float valve in my ppk rez, D9 uses a control bucket with a float valve inside. Your ppk rez could be 20 ft deep or like me about 2" it does not matter.

later,
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

My air gap is somewhere between three and four inches. So I guess I can say that:

I too have a 3.5" air gap.

 

[SCROG McDuck]

yup I call her The Bitch because she is a particularly harsh teacher. If you're bored (and a PPK grower is mostly bored) come on over to my second run thread. Its not a bad read...

The 'Bitch' is BIG!

Forget about the theory and plan on a 3.5" air gap. It eliminates the PWT in coco. Both D9 and I use it...not sure about IF though. Remember that it does not matter what depth your ppk rez is, just maintain a constant air gap and you're good to go.

Edit: maintaining the air gap boils down to controlling the ppk rez depth. I use a float valve in my ppk rez, D9 uses a control bucket with a float valve inside. Your ppk rez could be 20 ft deep or like me about 2" it does not matter.

later,
OO

Yes, I understand the theory and the rez size/depth vs pwt vs wick length...
but why is a 3.5" or 4" gap better than 1 or 2 inches"?? just precautionary?

Yes, controll bucket with valve.. raise the controll bucket raise the rez depth..
raise the rez, lower the rez depth...

Is all you are trying to tell me is that the 6 " wick (media here) should be only
about 2" into the rez.. 4" gap.

I guess theory is all I'm looking for...

 

[oldone]

Yes, I understand the theory and the rez size/depth vs pwt vs wick length...
but why is a 3.5" or 4" gap better than 1 or 2 inches"?? just precautionary?

Nah, I tested for it. It was easy to do one afternoon using a 2 liter pop bottle with its top cut off and drainage holes cut, some coco and water.

I watched the PWT form without a wick and then played with a wick and varied the air gap. A 1" airgap left a PWT in the bottle. 3"-4" moved it right out. I guess 5" or 6" would work as well. The PWT is still there, but its on the wick not in the pot.

So I should really be saying;
A minimum air gap of 3.5" will transport the PWT out of the PPK.

The minimum height bit is important to me because I have a short flower section.

see ya,
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

McDuck,

My air gap is that size because that is where it stabilized.

There are two factors to consider when establishing your air-gap: the Perched Water Table and the wicking potential of the media.

Every uniform media (at a given air pressure and elevation... blah, blah, blah) will establish a given PWT (with a uniform solution... blah, blah, blah). In my coco, it's about 1.75". When I put water into my dry coco and let it do it's thing, I eventually find nice moisture content at the eight or nine inch level. This moisture content is not uniform, progressing from standing water through the entire humidity range to (eventually) dry.

By adjusting your air gap, you can move PWT out of the root zone media and adjust your highest moisture concentration levels at the base of the root zone.

Personally, I didn't do any of this scientifically while building (D9 and OO did though). When I built my control res, I fucked up and cracked it a little. That crack stopped three and a half inches below the bottom of my media. So that's where the reservoir level is. Not so clever, huh?

 

[SCROG McDuck]

McDuck,

My air gap is that size because that is where it stabilized.

There are two factors to consider when establishing your air-gap: the Perched Water Table and the wicking potential of the media.

Every uniform media (at a given air pressure and elevation... blah, blah, blah) will establish a given PWT (with a uniform solution... blah, blah, blah). In my coco, it's about 1.75". When I put water into my dry coco and let it do it's thing, I eventually find nice moisture content at the eight or nine inch level. This moisture content is not uniform, progressing from standing water through the entire humidity range to (eventually) dry.

By adjusting your air gap, you can move PWT out of the root zone media and adjust your highest moisture concentration levels at the base of the root zone.

Personally, I didn't do any of this scientifically while building (D9 and OO did though). When I built my control res, I fucked up and cracked it a little. That crack stopped three and a half inches below the bottom of my media. So that's where the reservoir level is. Not so clever, huh?

V e r y scientific! Thanks to the 2 of you for bearing with me..

 

[daggerinmyback]

I will probably do the smaller setup ppks for mass production, just so I can have a few (10-20 Trees) and the rest will hopefully put my over-cloning tendencies into getting like 3-4 oz's a plant, maybe more thanks to the stability (plants love that) ...

and I do train them, but in my own cheap way... DF starts for me when clone starts rooting and grows like ~3" I pluck a couple of fans I have a bench of clones with an led covered ceiling that is about 14" from top of container to led touch plant, I let them grow and here n there pluck a few fans and let them branch give em space and let it go then when all but about 2 branches are uniform canopy size/height I can clip the one or two lower for clones and throw the rest in flower, now Im in the process of building a whole S#!T Ton of PPKs and mini PPK's and looking for that screen I want to throw up under them... so far soil amended with coco in a 16 oz cup (redspaghetti's idea made me but I dont have a new camera I can use well yet) yielded me 10.8grms dry and it was like a little stepchild I beat on due to it drying out a bit and me neglecting it for care of my trees and clone army... if it had been a mPPK I guess it could have pulled a 13-14grm I chopped it a bit early cause it dried to the point I had to when I left for a weekend...


you guys are way more than helpful... like the A-Team of gardeners with a mad scientist behind you guys...

huge Karma +'s to all of you guys

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

'mPPK.'

Awesome.

 

[delta9nxs]

the "controlled water table" theory at work.

simply moving the perched water table into the sump or draining it into a reservoir by mechanical trickery is not the same as controlling the water table to manipulate moisture content in the medium.

by raising or lowering the water table, which in our case allows an adjustable air gap, we have another tool to control the amount of moisture in the medium.

while i've used different gaps experimentally i'm finding that coco responds well to a 3-4" gap.

turface or perlite or any other medium might need a different amount of gap than coco. probably less.

The capillary rise potential of any medium will be fairly constant. By using an adjustable level we can change where that capillary rise potential begins, thereby controlling it's maximum rise and the moisture gradient.

This is affected by your top watering scheme. If you just want to hand water a little from the top once in a while to flush salts back down you might want a 2” gap. This would place the capillary rise potential at it's maximum height while still removing the perched water table from the root zone.

If you have a pulse or drip system also or are just hand watering a lot you might want a larger gap, say 3-4”. this reduces moisture from the reservoir to compensate for the extra moisture coming in from the top.

With a timed device for top watering you have two more moisture adjustment tools. One is duration of event and the other is the interval between.

Using all three tools allows you to maintain precision air porosity and moisture content. Never too wet. Never too dry. Just maximum air, water, nutrient, and root interface.

The key to using these tools is adjustability. No two of us have the same environmental conditions. And, within the same room, conditions change from season to season.

Variations in light application and strains will need different settings.

This sounds more complicated than it is. If you build it right the learning curve is intuitive. You walk into your palacial greenhouse with row after row of mother's finest just agrowin' and you notice a few leaves are tubed a little. Looks a little over watered, you think, and you dial your water table down 1/2”. or you decrease the duration of the pulse system to deliver 4 oz's instead of 6. or deliver 6 every 3 hours instead of 2, and so on.

I rarely have to do any thing anymore. Today i'm going to pull a few leaves off some plants. Hey, maybe i'll take a few before and after shots. Should stretch things out at least ten more minutes.

I'm all excited about tomorrow. I get to cut and trim one.

 

[Tanuvan]

delta9nxs,
You have come a long way since in the time I have been following your progress throughout the various forums on the web. I remember the old days of you and Mr. Hole in Bucket... debating the use of turface, multiple holes and the like.

I am so glad you kept up with your research!!! I'd like to say thanks!

I have one question for any of the PPK gurus : Is adding root control fabric of any benefit for preventing the roots from venturing down into the sump? I realize it probably won't hurt them as they are water roots...but just wondering.

 

[SCROG McDuck]

the "controlled water table" theory at work.

simply moving the perched water table into the sump or draining it into a reservoir by mechanical trickery is not the same as controlling the water table to manipulate moisture content in the medium.

by raising or lowering the water table, which in our case allows an adjustable air gap, we have another tool to control the amount of moisture in the medium.

while i've used different gaps experimentally i'm finding that coco responds well to a 3-4" gap.

turface or perlite or any other medium might need a different amount of gap than coco. probably less.

The capillary rise potential of any medium will be fairly constant. By using an adjustable level we can change where that capillary rise potential begins, thereby controlling it's maximum rise and the moisture gradient.

This is affected by your top watering scheme. If you just want to hand water a little from the top once in a while to flush salts back down you might want a 2” gap. This would place the capillary rise potential at it's maximum height while still removing the perched water table from the root zone.

If you have a pulse or drip system also or are just hand watering a lot you might want a larger gap, say 3-4”. this reduces moisture from the reservoir to compensate for the extra moisture coming in from the top.

With a timed device for top watering you have two more moisture adjustment tools. One is duration of event and the other is the interval between.

Using all three tools allows you to maintain precision air porosity and moisture content. Never too wet. Never too dry. Just maximum air, water, nutrient, and root interface.

The key to using these tools is adjustability. No two of us have the same environmental conditions. And, within the same room, conditions change from season to season.

Variations in light application and strains will need different settings.

This sounds more complicated than it is. If you build it right the learning curve is intuitive. You walk into your palacial greenhouse with row after row of mother's finest just agrowin' and you notice a few leaves are tubed a little. Looks a little over watered, you think, and you dial your water table down 1/2”. or you decrease the duration of the pulse system to deliver 4 oz's instead of 6. or deliver 6 every 3 hours instead of 2, and so on.

I rarely have to do any thing anymore. Today i'm going to pull a few leaves off some plants. Hey, maybe i'll take a few before and after shots. Should stretch things out at least ten more minutes.

I'm all excited about tomorrow. I get to cut and trim one.

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout...!! mechanical theory!

Do you use a trimmer? or e manual! Once a week..

I've built those wick cloners you describe, I haven't given up my bubble cloner but the possibility of taking a clone or seed thru veg, ready for the 'bloom phase' gets me excited..
Did I mention I threw an AK-47 seed in there to see how it works as a germer..? No water/paper towel dance..

I'll have more to say in a week or so, with pics..

As far as DFing goes... it is habit forming.. every time I look, there are more leaves to pluck... 10 here, 10 there...

I'm even going to bail on the scroging and let them grow tall.
No CO2... for now, and DF the hell out ofem'.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

is adding root control fabric of any benefit for preventing the roots from venturing down into the sump?

In my v1.0 build, I have a felt bottom on my media wick rather than screen. I flipped with 25 days of veg, which is less that D9. I do not have any root penetration into the sub-reservoir. When I packed my wick, I over filled it, and then dropped in more fabric immediately above it. I won't know what the roots actually did until I chop up the root ball in another month or so...

McDuck--I had the tomato cages to set around my girls when they were way too small to use them. They became super useful during stretch. I would recomend, if you are gonna let the girls run wild, developing some kind of structure to train them with.

 

[Carl Carlson]

D9,

Do you know what dry down moisture weight is?

From Olley:

10 % dry down moisture weight provides optimal crop growth

 

[daggerinmyback]

so hypothetically if I have an army of clones in 16 oz solo's do you guys think transplanting them (rootball in some schultz potting mix amended with some coco, and lots of perlite and some vermeculite) into PPK or mPPK? and reduce the air gap to say 3"? think it would stay moist and still go alright? I am afraid the stuff in soil and amendments would somehow screw with pH or nute differences... etc ... any thoughts? cause that IF it worked would be awesome... I know I am going to try, just wondering of thoughts... as I build I am flushing all nutes out with plain well water and prepping for the switch over to Jack's, with growing being this way, I need to sell off those 6 plant rDWC setups and the nice large E&F table or start using them just to have something to worry about as I am chopping the bloom room periodically over the next two weeks and then I'm off outta state for a while, this will test PPK tech, but also I do have someone lookin in on my stuff while gone just to check everything not to micro manage mix nutes or anything of the sort.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Carl,

The first page of google didn't tell me, so I really don't know.

My guess is that it relates to the timing of the feed schedule as it relates to O2 content; that is, insofar as conventional commercial gardens do not employ a wicking technology to remove the containerized PWT, that 10% 'dry down moisture weight' is the working calculation for optimum air/moisture content in coco.

An easy test for this thesis would be to saturate a conventional pot full of coco--lets define conventional as 10 inches of media and generally uniform in shape (i.e. cylindrical vs. absurdly conical), let it drain down, weigh it, and then wick the bastard, drain the pwt, and then reweigh. If that difference approximates 10%--and I speculate it would be slightly lower than that--it would support my thesis. I have enough coco and solo cups to try it, but not up to a nursery size...

Maybe after lunch...

Dagger, you got any pics of your build on the mPPKs, or the full sized units? That'd be helpful for me to understand your situation better.

EDIT: Shit, this is post 1,000. Congratulations to D9's PPK thread for staying alive for 1K!!!!