passive plant killer

[Snook]

If air pruning works, and I believe it does, then why not a couple 'pruning holes' in the tailpiece, where it meets the bottom of the pot? do not think that holes would change the integrety of the rez, might be benificial more O2. I get a 'root ball' at the bottom of the tailpiece once in a while and will also place a piece of screen over the tailpiece opening in the future. Thanks for the pictures. The g13 looks too big for my tent, going with ECSD.

My first go at the PPKs were a 3.5 inside a 5 gallon bucket. A couple had holes in the bottom of the pot and at the end of the grow, there were very fine, very white roots dangling in the water from those holes, 3.5 inches were just hanging in the air...??? I forgot where this was going! oh well! I now use PPKs as prescribed with no drama, no trauma!

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

snook

My guess is that there's enough humidity in the lower reservoir to sustain root life outside the tailpiece (as you found when you drilled out the 3.5s...

...

I do get excited to see new post in this thread every day.

If I can find time to get online, I find time to get here.

I've been a little bummed to read the last few pages, as the courtesy I'm accustomed to on this thread as been tested, and language has become stronger.

Online message boards can get silly.

If I had my way, we'd all agree that the direction and tone--regarless of merit--might be moving away from what we've collectively come to expect in this thread, and we might all choose to self police our language and choose our words carefully.

For the record, I've not posted many of the things I've written in the last ten days... as they seemed inflammatory, defensive, and generally not so very helpful.

Well, sometimes I tried to post inflammatory, defensive, not-helpful remarks, and my computer just glitched out... but the outcome was the same.

I have great imaginary friends here, and I see them here most often.

If I had my way, we'd all be choose to nice and friendly, and talk about bananas, if that's what courtesy demanded.

...

Once, there was a man with a white elephant...

 

[Snook]

snook

My guess is that there's enough humidity in the lower reservoir to sustain root life outside the tailpiece (as you found when you drilled out the 3.5s...

...

I do get excited to see new post in this thread every day.

If I can find time to get online, I find time to get here.

I've been a little bummed to read the last few pages, as the courtesy I'm accustomed to on this thread as been tested, and language has become stronger.

Online message boards can get silly.

If I had my way, we'd all agree that the direction and tone--regarless of merit--might be moving away from what we've collectively come to expect in this thread, and we might all choose to self police our language and choose our words carefully.

For the record, I've not posted many of the things I've written in the last ten days... as they seemed inflammatory, defensive, and generally not so very helpful.

Well, sometimes I tried to post inflammatory, defensive, not-helpful remarks, and my computer just glitched out... but the outcome was the same.

I have great imaginary friends here, and I see them here most often.

If I had my way, we'd all be choose to nice and friendly, and talk about bananas, if that's what courtesy demanded.

...

Once, there was a man with a white elephant...

I agree.. bananas! inflamatory! Peace. Elephant.

 

[disciple]

 

[delta9nxs]

i'm done. i ben playin futbol widdout my hemet on. a mind be a terrible thang!

 

[Snook]

i'm done. i ben playin futbol widdout my hemet on. a mind be a terrible thang!

"done" !? What? IF?? Nah..

 

[delta9nxs]

This thread takes me back to the good 'ol days at ***** where hempy and delta went back and forth about delta stealing the hempy bucket idea and promoting it as his own with some basic modifications. I believe your health has since taken a turn for the better delta, as in those days we were all afraid you would not make it for very long.

Jah bless.

hello, dr., wow, your first post on icmag and i get it. just to be clear, i never promoted the hempy bucket as my own. what i did do was start a thread about hand watering turface in response to requests for info about turface. i was also interested in trying the irb technique so i tried a "hempy" bucket and quickly found out that turface needed more air. so i drilled 8 holes in a bucket which worked fine for turface. the hempy henchmen then viciously attacked me using multiple handles with 1 or 2 post, join date that morning, and stated that i was stealing hempy's "intellectual property". to put that to rest i put up the following link to a lady who is a world respected hydroponic researcher and teacher focused on teaching third world people with limited resources how to cheaply and reliably produce food in small spaces.

as you may glean from her article, she began using this technique in the late 60's, '69 i believe.

at any rate, it is an interesting read.

http://www.simplyhydro.com/growing_your_own_food.htm

here is the pertinent quote from this article but the whole thing should be read in context.


Quote by ms. Peggy Bradley.

“I still eat my meals from my hydroponic garden 34 years later. Some things have changed. Now all the tubs are completely filled with horticultural grade perlite. There is a perlite that is like dust for mixing with cement and a horticultural grade perlite of small pieces, measuring from two to nine millimeters. The tubs all have one drain hole about one inch from the bottom so they retain an inch of water in the bottom of the tub. Every day I hand water them all with a watering can and every day at lunchtime I pick the foods I need for lunch.”

 

[SRGB]

"Snook:
If air pruning works, and I believe it does. . ."

`Air pruning` does not naturally occur. It can be implemented by design. `Air pruning` is not generally an advantageous process for the plant or the gardener. Generally, plant roots seek to grow and accumulate mass without restriction, or forced pruning, due to the vessel they are in, or conditions on the outside of the vessel.

Generally, `air pruning` may occur due to the type of wall the plants' roots grow into. If there are channels that allow passage through to the outside of the container, the roots will grow through them. If there is a moisture source that is available to the roots, the roots will grow into that moisture.

If the walls of a specific container prevent the free passage of roots through to the outside, they may become entangled in those walls, and `prune` themselves, or die, due to asphixiation.

When there is an external water source, and the primary root ball is in a container that permits air and water through, the roots will continue to grow on the outside of the container, without any `pruning`.

`Air pruning` is a shock to the plants' roots, and results in a smaller root mass than a plant whose roots have not been `air pruned`. The larger the final root mass, the more resources can be stored by the plant; more stored resources are then available to the plant from the roots during bloom or flowering or fruiting.

For gardeners or farmers that seek to grow the largest root systems and largest plants during a given period, or several given periods during the season, `air pruning` or `root pruning` only reduces the overall mass of the given root system.

Here are two pictures which show the accumulation of root mass when roots are NOT `air pruned`. The first picture is the beginning stages of root growth through the 1 liter Square Root(TM) Garden Bag. The second picture is the same 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag, after having been placed into a 20 gallon Square Root(TM) Bag, and grown further.

Note that in the second picture the 1 liter SRBGB is not clearly visible. It is beneath the mass of roots that grew out of all of the side walls and bottom of the Square Root(TM) Bag.

The entire 1 liter SRBGB was placed into the 20 gallon SRBGB, when roots had grown through the 1 liter to adequate mass. Pic.1 and Pic. 2 are of the same 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag, at different stages of the season. The plant was never transplanted out of the original 1 liter SRBGB, instead the entire 1 liter SRBGB was placed into a 20 gallon SRBGB. The roots in Pic. 2. are on the outside walls and bottom of the 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag of Pic. 1.

Pic. 1.
1 liter Square Root(TM) Garden Bag. Roots growing out of the sides and bottom. No roots were shocked or damaged or lost or pruned when placing the 1 liter SRBGB into the 20 gallon SRBGB. The roots continued to grow, without restriction, accumulating additional mass.

Pic. 1.

Pic. 2.
The same 1 liter Square Root(TM) Garden Bag, after season. The 1 liter SRBGB was placed into a 20 gallon SRBGB (not pictured). The plant roots grew through the walls and bottom of the 1 liter SRBGB into the surrounding pumice and perlite in the 20 gallon SRBGB. Most of the roots are not pictured, as they were in the 20 gallons of media. This picture shows that provided the appropriate container, plant roots will not automatically `air prune`, but will instead continue to grow into the thin air and, or, an external basin or trough containing a nutrient solution.

Pic. 2.

Traditional extraction-type `TRANSPLANTING` IS TOTALLY ELIMINATED. No root mass or root tips were shocked, damaged or lost placing the 1 liter Square Root(TM) Garden Bag into the subsequent 5 or 20 gallon Square Root(TM) Garden Bags. The roots were not shocked by restrictions to further growth by the walls of the container, nor were they `air pruned` or otherwise pruned by the `transplanting` process, nor the lowering into the larger 20 gals/88 liters SRBGB, pre-filled 50/50 with pumice and perlite.

The plant was fed only once per day, with water soluble nutrients similar to Jack's and calcium nitrate. The plant was placed into a shallow trough. Nutrient solution was provided until there was very slight run-off, then stopped. The roots grew out of the Square Root(TM) Bag into the shallow level of nutrient solution. The low-walled structure of the trough permitted environmental air to go into and out of the Square Root(TM) Bag. The low-walled structure also prevents over-watering by the gardener or farmer, and provides the gardener or farmer with a clear visual guage of precisely how much water is bening used by the specific plant.

The most difficult aspect of describing this method is communicating the fact that the plant only requires water once per day. That the plant only requires a shallow level of water in the external reservoir, and that that shallow level is provided by the run-off from top-feeding.
The process is that simple. No waste of nutrient solution, no guessing about how much water to supply. No ph`ing of nutrient solution, no large reservoir to maintain. `Just water once a day, and walk away.` The plant will use what it needs.

The roots also grew out of the sides of the Square Root(TM) Bag into the air itself. This led us to the conclusion that plant roots will grow into air, and continue growing into air, as long as there is an adequate source of water inside of the primary root ball container, and/or available in an external basin.

There are, perhaps, parts of the root system that are differentiated, and specialized enough to expose themselves to oxygen, if other specialized parts are able to draw in water.

Another observation with regards to maintaining a water level for the plant is that when we purposefully let the external basin go dry, there were still white roots growing and lengthening along the bottom of the dry basin. That observation was very important. It brought us to to the fact that plant roots are probably deprived of oxygen, and welcome it when coditions become drier.
This observation would not have been possible in solid walled or bottomed vessel, which restricted root growth to primarily inside of the vessel. Instead, when roots able to grow unrestricted from within the Square Root(TM) Bag, the roots did so under dry conditions, as well as damp or moist conditions.
They adapted, or are already adapted to differentiate their structures to assimiliate or affix both water and air, separately, and simultaneously. Also, they probably could survive and thrive on much less water than they are commonly recommended to be provided to. Where the roots did not thrive or grow at a similar rate as the damp to moist to dry conditions, were wet conditions. The higher the water or run-off level in the external basin, the browner the roots, and the slower the consumption of water.
For example, if a given plant is uptaking 1 gallon of water a day, the second day being the observation of a damp to dry basin, the amount provided should equal 1 gallon, not more. If 2 gallons of water are provided, the plant may not uptake 1 gallon of water.

Hypotheses that can be drawn is that when the plant roots are saturated in water, they do not exert the same `pull` as when there is a presumed scarcity of water sensed by the plant roots. Or, when the physical weight of the mass of water is such that the weight of it is heavier, the uptake up through the xylem and out of the leaves during transpiration, is decreased, due to the heavier mass that must be drawn up and through the plant; as that water travels up by capillary action (and other yet unknown plant physiology) as a column of water. Pulling water from a greater body of water through as a column is more difficult than pulling a column of water that has less overall density and weight.
The facts were that the plant thrived when provided with the approximate amount of water that it was transpiring during a given period; in that garden, 1 time per day, until a shallow (no more than 1/8 inch in liter SRBGB, and no more than 2 inch in 10 or 20 gallon SRBGB) run-off in an low-walled reservoir or tray or trough.
Plant roots grew laterally on the bottom of a dry trough, and remained white and expanding.

Pic. 3.
Square Root(TM) Garden Bag, with roots matting on the bottom of the SRBGB. The plant was grown outdorrs, and only fed once or twice a week. No external basin or other catch was used. Roots still
grew out of the Square Root(TM) Bag, without a constant or consistent source of water.

Pic. 3.

`Air pruning` generally seeks to restrict the root growth at the wall of the vessel, or to keep roots within the plant vessel, for long-term contained plant growth in that vessel.

Square Root(TM) Garden Bags specifically seeks to grow the largest, healthiest roots possible; without ever `transplanting` (potential damage to roots) out of the original container following the rooting of a scion or cutting or seedling.
Square Root(TM) Bags are designed for plants to grow unrestricted through the walls and bottom of the bag; with no pruning of the roots. The goal is `simplicity, maximum efficiency, water conservation`, and root ¶Øᴚᴝ!

The plant generally uses all of the run-off that is accumulated from the single watering per day, within 24 hours. When transpiration rates are increased, the rate of uptake of water from the external basin is increased.

No nutrient solution was ever drained out of the external basin, nor was any nutrient solution ever dumped or discarded. The plant was simply fed the amount that it uptook, on average, every 24 hours.

For example, in a 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag, the plant was fed approximately 4 to 8 ounces of water per day, depending on the size and age of the scion.

In a 20 gallon Square Root(TM) Bag, placed into a larger, low-walled trough, the plant was fed approximately 1 to 2 gallons of nutrient solution per day. However, the amount of water provided was based directly on the amount of water depleted from the external basin, as roots were able to grow through both the 1 liter SRBGB, the surrounding inert media (pumice and perlite), and further down into the large trough holding the run-off from the previous day of watering.

The net result is a gardening cycle that ELIMINATES 1) transplanting; 2) discarding or dumping of run-off; 3) root shock, injury or damage; 4) guessing how much water the plant uses or needs; and 5) wasting resources.

During our experiments, `root pruning` or `air pruning` was not found to be advantageous, nor necessary. Providing a container that permitted exchange of liquids and gases, without restriction of the roots, was advantageous, without any `air pruning` at all; for maximum root mass health, growth and accumulation during a given period or season.

/SRGB/

 

[bad gas]

hello everyone. bad gas checking in. i still can't chat as i've been putting my money into my grow instead of my computer. i'm within $500 of startup.

for those people with cloning problems several pages back: i read a thread recently where the difference between sucessful and dead clones was the use of chlorinated water.

the thinking was that the chlorine prevented fungus.

i keep current on this thread even though i can't regularly post.

have a nice day. bg

 

[jjfoo]

No nutrient solution was ever drained out of the external basin, nor was any nutrient solution ever dumped or discarded. The plant was simply fed the amount that it uptook, on average, every 24 hours.

What EC level(s) did you use and did you water with?

I'm just now starting to water for now runoff. My plants need more waterings but they are never soaked. I'll take some run off in a few days to see if the EC is climbing or falling.

 

[delta9nxs]

hello everyone. bad gas checking in. i still can't chat as i've been putting my money into my grow instead of my computer. i'm within $500 of startup.

for those people with cloning problems several pages back: i read a thread recently where the difference between sucessful and dead clones was the use of chlorinated water.

the thinking was that the chlorine prevented fungus.

i keep current on this thread even though i can't regularly post.

have a nice day. bg

hey, bad gas! thanks for checking in. i've been wondering what happened to you.

d9

 

[delta9nxs]

Its good to see you around delta, finding familiar faces in a sea of strangers is the norm anymore. It sounds like you drew quite a bit from hempies methodology and adapted his system to your own needs. That is what its all about ultimately, learning from others and applying that knowledge to your own circumstances.

I think a big thank you for hemp is in order, as he/she has clearly had an impact on growers all over the globe.

Thanks hempy

hey, dr pepperdude! if you look at this design you will see that it bears no resemblance to an IRB. in fact it operates on a completely different set of principles. what i did learn from internal reservoir devices was how not to build this.

 

[zeke99]

Thanks again to you Delta9. Now that I've got clones, I can convert to the full-on PPK and institute a perpetual schedule. No more trimming everything at once, alone...

 

[disciple]

 

[delta9nxs]

Thanks again to you Delta9. Now that I've got clones, I can convert to the full-on PPK and institute a perpetual schedule. No more trimming everything at once, alone...

u b welcome! the perpetual schedule is good for:

breaking up the work into smaller, less tiring, more manageable sessions.

evening out fluctuations in income and promoting financial security.

a fast track for experimentation.

running more plants in any area because they are not all the same size at the same time.

thank you for the index. i need all the help i can get.

later on, d9

 

[delta9nxs]

so just finished reading the whole thread for the second time.

i think I've finally figured out where the plant goes.



Delta9nxs, have you read "Hydroponic Food Production" by Resh?

man, you must be bored!

i've got an old copy of that somewhere, why?

 

[Snook]

I've noticed that the valve stems, after just one grow, is black inside, at the brass threaded part and the nub that is inside the rez is all gnarlly and cruddy. Replace them? or let them go? by the way, I mixed the 8822/RHulls, much more likeable than coco rinse/charge regiment. 1 bag of 8822 & 8 qts of rice hulls. not as heavy as I thought it would be.

 

[delta9nxs]

I've noticed that the valve stems, after just one grow, is black inside, at the brass threaded part and the nub that is inside the rez is all gnarlly and cruddy. Replace them? or let them go? by the way, I mixed the 8822/RHulls, much more likeable than coco rinse/charge regiment. 1 bag of 8822 & 8 qts of rice hulls. not as heavy as I thought it would be.

hey, i have mine drilled out to 3/16" and i just rinse them well between uses. no problems yet.

you could run a pipe cleaner through them. one of those wire bristle ones.

when washing the containers between uses i use a stiff nylon brush and dish detergent. i probably get a few bristles into the tire valve.

the 8822 has about the same bulk density as turface so the mix should weigh about the same as a turface mix.

clean and easy to work with. as i switch over to turface from the coco i'm seeing plants in both mixes, coco and turface/rh, and the turface/rh ones look a little better under the same pulse schedule.

later

 

[High Country]

A SUG in a standard ebb/flow tray....standard 2 pack nutes....whatever medium works pretty well too.

 

[zeke99]

one more question about cloning. at what point do you feel comfortable moving cuts from the CFL to more light?