passive plant killer

[jjfoo]

To my knowledge, no one is deliberately running a dead reservoir in this system. Most people are feeding pretty low on the PPM scale...

I do things a bit different. I aim for a sterile condition. I don't want my media rotting and being broken down. I am providing all the nutes and this is how I currently run hydroponic systems.

I have tried aerating compost tea and went out of my way to add microbes. I saw no difference in side by side grows.

I'd like to see some samples under a microscope to quantify how many visible microbes are actually doing well. Or at least some more side by side grows. I don't trust my results very much.

I would like to learn more about growing in biologically active media. I've mixed my own 'soil', with coco, blood meal, bone meal, etc. I usually make them 'hot' and put a layer on the bottom then have more coco mixed in near the top, so the roots can acclimate.

I based it on sub-cools 'super soil'

 

[jjfoo]

I vote no... PPK grows monsters without the added effort. There was a notion of a sealed system, with a bubbler in the bottom forcing air up through the tailpiece... that might be interesting. But I don't have an itch to try it right now.

I agree, this would make the system have too much maintaince for my taste.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

I aim for a sterile condition.

Are you actively adding something to keep the system sterile, or are you considering it from a hygiene perspective?

I am providing all the nutes and this is how I currently run hydroponic systems.

...There is, in my mind, so much gray area and overlaps between "systems"... If I'm running a PPK sterile, it hydro... but if I'm using the CEC capaicity of the media, or developing a media based microherd, some might say I'm running "soilless"...

And I think it's relevant, because the labeling of the system may influence your decision making processes...

So I guess I'm running a top flood, bottom fed, soilless media based... fuck it. I can't figure it out.

 

[catman]

My pulse is on a timer.

Okay. I understand how yours is working now.

My pulse is a 'blanket' in your terms. I understand how you are using that term, and I am telling you that my pulse results in an inch of standing water over the entire surface of the media, that then drains down and through the media generating a 'plunger' effect.

My 'blanket' is your 'plunger.' I'm still skeptical that it helps by moving gas faster out of the side holes. Wherever water leaves, gas will replace it. I still theorize the significant benefit of the pulse has more to do with more watering entering the bottom rez, compensating for a medium that holds too much water to be recirculated continuously and/or displacing the gas in the rez. Even If I'm wrong about all of that. You all are finding that more frequent watering is more beneficial which is the cornerstone of hydroponics and is most evident in drip systems where a constant drip is better than periodic drips.

In my mind, the PWT refers to the level wherein a solution will no longer drain from a given media do to the fact that 'pulling' quality of capillary forces exceed their opposite (gravity). It does not mean a 'wet spot' to me.

From what I gather. Capillary action isn't the opposition of gravity. Capillary action works the same way going down as it does up.

For whatever reasons, more capillary action happens with smaller particles that are closer together. So with perlite as shown in the picture below, the PWT is jagged because of different sized and spaced particles. Water will cling on to perlite through adhesion/cohesion/whatever and these forces resist gravity, but not the PWT. The PWT is the pool of water above whatever is preventing water from going down. In this example, the giant particle that is the bottom of the plastic bottle won't let any water escape. Just above the red line is what I think of the PWT as so please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

But in an operating system, the PWT does not move in a meaningful way, unless you adjust your float valve in the control.

Yup. What I've said in the past was all under the assumption that no water is removed from the rez beside it wicking upward.

I agree, this would make the system have too much maintaince for my taste.

Less maintenance than having to tune a timer to the plants uptake of water. Drill hole, insert air hose, seal air hose hole and buckets, connect hose to pump. It might not be worth it, but I think it is a stretch to say it would be too much maintenance.

So I guess I'm running a top flood, bottom fed, soilless media based... fuck it. I can't figure it out.

The medium does not have any inherent nutrients so you supply what the CEC intakes thus I believe it would be considered hydro.

Fuck it dude, lets go bowling...

Look what the cat dragged in.. Finally found a 2 gal bucket and a new idea of making a PPK that is more flood and drain in addition to top and bottom fed. Bustin out the power tools tomorrow and hopefully picking up some turface.

 

[Snook]

May I digress

May I digress

I've read that CO2 in abundance, can be harmfull to humans/pets, paintings, pictures, plants, etc. if there is an over-abundance of it present. Any one know what that threshold is? (in CO2 PPMs)? any ideas? detramental or corrosive? Lemme ask: if running a sealed room, that contains a valuable painting, besides the girls, would the required 1200-1500PPMs of CO2 .. have any negative affect on the painting (oil)?

 

[dgr]

I've heard of playing music for your plants. But fine art?

 

[Snook]

and when useing the turface/rice hull mix 3:1, does one still drill the air pruning holes in the top pot? I'd think 'the mix' would want to fall out, no? Makes me think it would need to be wetted (pulsed) more often. Screen?

 

[delta9nxs]

and when useing the turface/rice hull mix 3:1, does one still drill the air pruning holes in the top pot? I'd think 'the mix' would want to fall out, no? Makes me think it would need to be wetted (pulsed) more often. Screen?

i think you are going to need to call a museum curator or someone like that cause i'm totally unqualified to answer that question.

but i can handle your question about the turface/rh mix.

i like the holes still with this mix but i am putting a 4" wide strip of regular fiberglass window screen against the holes on the inside. i'm also putting a small piece down the tailpiece from the inside.

 

[jjfoo]

Less maintenance than having to tune a timer to the plants uptake of water. Drill hole, insert air hose, seal air hose hole and buckets, connect hose to pump. It might not be worth it, but I think it is a stretch to say it would be too much maintenance.

how would an airstone make it so you don't have to water on a frequency that the plants can use? Have you ever used air lines and airstones or diffusers? They need to be cleaned. Can't see how this would not be more work.

also capillary does go in all directions but gravity is what limits it from climbing, so it is opposed by gravity

with no gravity the fluid would spread evenly through the media and the 'runoff' would eventually envelope the container and form a sphereish shape or bubble of water.

 

[jjfoo]

Are you actively adding something to keep the system sterile, or are you considering it from a hygiene perspective?

I don't add things to keep it sterile, but I do avoid adding any organic matter that will decay. I know coco is organic, but it doesn't decay in the 10-16 weeks the plants live in it.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

I don't add things to keep it sterile, but I do avoid adding any organic matter that will decay. I know coco is organic, but it doesn't decay in the 10-16 weeks the plants live in it.

Thanks for the reply.

In my mind, we (collectively) haven't talked too much about the possibilities of a positive micro-herd (self-inoculating) within the media. Not that it is of great concern to me presently... just that the media conceivably could support one, whether we are feeding salts or not (depending on concentration... I know there's a lot of possible factors.)

 

[catman]

how would an airstone make it so you don't have to water on a frequency that the plants can use? Have you ever used air lines and airstones or diffusers? They need to be cleaned. Can't see how this would not be more work.

also capillary does go in all directions but gravity is what limits it from climbing, so it is opposed by gravity

We have a few misunderstandings. I never said anything about airstones nor did I say it would have anything to do with the frequency of watering the plants. Yes, I've used diffusers and airstones and know they are a PIA. A simple line is all I was talking about it and it wouldn't even have to be submerged in water to achieve what I proposed. Obviously it would be more work than not doing it at all, but again my only point is it seems obvious it would be less work to do this than managing the timers; again keep in mind the purposes of them are totally unrelated. I was only disputing your claim, but you may very well be correct that it wouldn't be any benefit. I'm just trying to keep an open mind about it especially being it doesn't seem anyone has tested this idea so maybe I will.

Of course gravity is what limits it in addition to the size of the particles and other properties of the medium and fluid being wicked. I don't believe I disputed that. Hope I didn't rub ya the wrong way becuase that is far form my intention. I'm just a very curious cat trying to learn from you guys.

 

[*mistress*]

I've read that CO2 in abundance, can be harmfull to humans/pets, paintings, pictures, plants, etc. if there is an over-abundance of it present. Any one know what that threshold is? (in CO2 PPMs)? any ideas? detramental or corrosive? Lemme ask: if running a sealed room, that contains a valuable painting, besides the girls, would the required 1200-1500PPMs of CO2 .. have any negative affect on the painting (oil)?

c02 can go to 10,000 ppm to eliminate pests...
the general practice is to maintain 1000-1500 ppm constant until maybe last 2 weeks... last 2 weeks `hardens off` texture of flowers, maybe along w/ slightly less water / moisture available in medium...

maybe not detrimental / corrosive to walls or other structures. it is gas that is heavier than air & drops to ground if not circulated....

if do not use mechanical devices (burner / tanks) to make co2, other methods are fermentation.... their are maybe a couple tutorials on that @ icmag, maybe somewhere in this thread, maybe not... most gardeners do not prefer that method, or take it as not enough to make difference.... maybe, make 5 gallons of fermentated liquids, keep `burning`, & draw own conclusions...

another simple method is to spray daily w/ cabonated water.... this is c02 compressed into water in bottle. dissolves on leaves to create direct micro-climate of c02.... that method is not based on `ppm` s of c02 in garden-area, as the entire garden space is not meant to be saturated, only the leaves, where the process takes place....

there are devices or small tanks that can carbonate water to `sparkling water`, or other human drinks.... after light spray 1 - 2 tymes per day, maybe see effect on cultivar... maybe an efficient method of c02 delivery, just an option....

2cents

 

[jjfoo]

We have a few misunderstandings. I never said anything about airstones nor did I say it would have anything to do with the frequency of watering the plants. Yes, I've used diffusers and airstones and know they are a PIA. A simple line is all I was talking about it and it wouldn't even have to be submerged in water to achieve what I proposed. Obviously it would be more work than not doing it at all, but again my only point is it seems obvious it would be less work to do this than managing the timers; again keep in mind the purposes of them are totally unrelated. I was only disputing your claim, but you may very well be correct that it wouldn't be any benefit. I'm just trying to keep an open mind about it especially being it doesn't seem anyone has tested this idea so maybe I will.

Of course gravity is what limits it in addition to the size of the particles and other properties of the medium and fluid being wicked. I don't believe I disputed that. Hope I didn't rub ya the wrong way becuase that is far form my intention. I'm just a very curious cat trying to learn from you guys.

I'm curious, too. I'm not upset. Sorry, if I came across that way.


Would you seal the hose so so the air wouldn't just leave the whole where the hose goes in? I wouldn't want my pots under pressure.


I do my ppk like system a bit diff. I have a large air gap and my wick is mainly for drainage. I top water for the main water source. I also run drain to waste. In my conditions I seem to get better results with more drainage and a lower water table.


When you said 'Less maintenance than having to tune a timer to the plants uptake of water.' I thought you where somehow suggesting that having a air line would stop the timer maintaince. So in addition to having to tune a timer, you are suggesting setting up a air line system. How would this not add complexity to the system. Which may be OK for some people. I am looking for a system that is much simpler. If someone where to show me evidence that adding air below the root mass gaving an improvement, I would like to see how much and then I could consider it it was worth the extra effort (even if is a small effort).

I don't really have much maintenance on my timer any ways. It changes slowly. I periodically up the water time to make it so I get a little runoff. As they grow they need higher freq or more volume of waterings.

 

[Snook]

c02 can go to 10,000 ppm to eliminate pests...
the general practice is to maintain 1000-1500 ppm constant until maybe last 2 weeks... last 2 weeks `hardens off` texture of flowers, maybe along w/ slightly less water / moisture available in medium...

maybe not detrimental / corrosive to walls or other structures. it is gas that is heavier than air & drops to ground if not circulated....

if do not use mechanical devices (burner / tanks) to make co2, other methods are fermentation.... their are maybe a couple tutorials on that @ icmag, maybe somewhere in this thread, maybe not... most gardeners do not prefer that method, or take it as not enough to make difference.... maybe, make 5 gallons of fermentated liquids, keep `burning`, & draw own conclusions...

another simple method is to spray daily w/ cabonated water.... this is c02 compressed into water in bottle. dissolves on leaves to create direct micro-climate of c02.... that method is not based on `ppm` s of c02 in garden-area, as the entire garden space is not meant to be saturated, only the leaves, where the process takes place....

there are devices or small tanks that can carbonate water to `sparkling water`, or other human drinks.... after light spray 1 - 2 tymes per day, maybe see effect on cultivar... maybe an efficient method of c02 delivery, just an option....

2cents

Thanks mistress, good to see you again, hope all is well with you. I have CO2 bottle and controller, thinking burner though. tent is too small to put burner in there, so thinking whole room. Cant effectivly 'seal' the tent, that is in the room, I'm told. Spraying isnt an option, bare bulbs and poor memory. Tks again.

 

[*mistress*]

Thanks mistress, good to see you again, hope all is well with you. I have CO2 bottle and controller, thinking burner though. tent is too small to put burner in there, so thinking whole room. Cant effectivly 'seal' the tent, that is in the room, I'm told. Spraying isnt an option, bare bulbs and poor memory. Tks again.

@ Snook...

Thx... in imagination, never tried tanks / burners.... it is fine mist that is best applied, from regular spray bottle w/ nozzle turned so mist cloud squeezes out. not drenching of foliage like foliar spray, just mist.... ideally, sprayed on undersides of large leaves.... it should dissipate quickly, turn into gas & be absorbed thru stomata.... spraying w/ bare bulbs in garden shouldnt be issue, if only lightly mist leaves. method not for all gardeners, though....

tank & controller may need similar constant monitoring to dial... applying to entire exterior area may use lot of c02.... when direct application of mist gives to only leaves.... especially in tent.....

just 2cents simple option to spray every / every other day - no monitors, controllers, etc.... not posting it best, or same as tanks / burners, etc, etc.... c02 is only used by plants for certain parts of the day. stomata close during mid-day. ~1-2 hrs after sun is peak tyme for assimilation... then after stoma open again following mid-day `heat`....

these may be helpful... different methods, pov`s, options, etc:

The how to and why fors of CO2 supplementation for growers


i need a cheap co2 system ? help


Setting up and Maintaining a CO2 (yeast&sugar) bucket. Suggestions?

have fun!

 

[catman]

Would you seal the hose so so the air wouldn't just leave the whole where the hose goes in? I wouldn't want my pots under pressure.

I do my ppk like system a bit diff. I have a large air gap and my wick is mainly for drainage. I top water for the main water source. I also run drain to waste. In my conditions I seem to get better results with more drainage and a lower water table.

I don't really have much maintenance on my timer any ways. It changes slowly. I periodically up the water time to make it so I get a little runoff. As they grow they need higher freq or more volume of waterings.

Regarding what I said, yes it would be sealed. You might not want you're pots under pressure, but maybe the plants would like being under pressure. From what I understand, more pressure = more dissolved oxygen. Maybe this is why RDWC hands down produces the biggest plants, the quickest. I'm just speculating.

So, you are basically running more of a drip system and you get better results with more watering running through the system which I absolutely believe ya works well, but I'm wondering how to conserve water, nutrients, maintenance, and maximize plant growth like RDWC does. Just don't want to deal with the risks of RDWC so basically I'm just trying to understand how to grow the biggest possible plant with PPK as assume many are.

I'm making a PPK bucket and messing around with some perlite and turface MVP as we speak, and I'll try out my air hose idea. You haven't seen it be a success, but have you seen it be a failure?I understand why you wouldn't want to mess with something that obviously isn't broken, but for the sake of curiosity I thought it was worth mentioning. I'll keep ya guys posted if I find anything worth mentioning.

 

[jjfoo]

I have used the PPK and got the same yield I normally get. I used it for three pulls and liked it. It is just my preference not to use tubing anymore. I have a bucket in a bucket and the drain hole drains on to a table. My air gap is like 8 inches (three gal in a five gal or pot onto of another pot with wick hanging down). There is minimal bottom watering, if any. I water for very little run off and that goes to my outside and house plants.

 

[dgr]

jjfoo,
You hand watering then?

 

[jjfoo]

jjfoo,
You hand watering then?

I hand water in veg and the beginning of flower. Once I settle on where the plants ultimate location to best make a nice canopy I stop moving the plants and add the water lines. I meant I don't like the tubing on the bottom, but prefer free drainage on a tray.

I move my plants around frequently before they start to flower. ONce they flower I don't rotate or relocate them.