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passive plant killer

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
jjfoo,
I think Al is an incredible grower and he has his system dialed in. After all, he's a lazy stoner.

A couple points on his cloning. His method marries you to your clones in a clingy, I need daddy sort of way. At a minimum you must water your clones once a day. Sometimes twice a day. Al may as well be using a humidity dome. He has a closed box with a thermostatically controlled fan. He also runs a couple of T5s in there and a heat mat. All those things will contribute to high humidity. The only difference really is his lights are inside of his "dome."

Nothing above is meant to take away from his obviously successful cloning technique. But it's about the most labor intensive cloning method around. Kinda the opposite of what's going on here, no?

zeke,
I just lost 17 out of 20 clones with a technique that works well for me. It happens. Then on the flip side, I had cuttings that sat in the salad crisper for five weeks root faster than freshly cut ones. How green were your stems? Any chance you can try a little older but not quite woody stems? My clones with those stems seem to battle pythium better than fresh green stems.

he is using a big dome as opposed to several smaller ones.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
delta,
Wouldn't increasing the air gap be the quickest way to drop the moisture level in the cloner media? I'm going to go post this in the PPK thread and see what those guys think.




zeke,

Pythium is EVERYWHERE. Anyone that doesn't have it doesn't have an environment that allows it to grow or is running a clean room.

I'm not sure where you guys are going with the room humidity. If you fill a closed box with water vapor, the humidity outside of the box isn't part of the system.

It could be as simple as you have 10% more light shining on the box as delta. Something is driving your humidity high enough for the pythium to actually show fuzzy growth on the surface.

The mechanics of cloning are pretty simple (when they work for me) If the clone wilts, it is not receiving/can't transpire enough water. The cut could be bad. The temp could be too high. The direct light could be too much. The local rh could be too low. The media could be too dry. If the clone rots, the environment was providing too much humidity and created an ideal environment for fungal growth.

I had my first successes in coco. So I'm of the ambient humidity school -- even when my A/C is running all day long. If they wilt, It's usually a bad end cut or drying media or air around the stem.

I think deltas cloners are a good way to reduce the variables. But as IF alluded to, they need to be tuned for your environment. You may well find that leaving the tops off of them 100% of the time may create an environment that is not conducive to fungal growth while providing enough local humidity for the plants to remain turgid until they put out roots. For me, if clones aren't wilting in coco, they don't rate any type of dome. When I do big cuts in rockwool, they get a dome because I'm not babysitting the little sissies.

good luck! I hope you get your cloning down. It's still very frustrating for me when, no matter what, the cuts just don't root.

PS. Those 17 I lost and their coco were treated with myclobutanil and had no humidity dome. Stem rot below the surface in 3 days! wheeeeee!



the level in these cloners is set by container design. moisture content of the medium is controlled by the wicking material in this case.

my problem solving technique is a bit scatter shot. i ask a bunch of questions more or less at random as they occur to me. my humidity questions and zeke's answers helps me zero in on the problem.

i now know that his overall rh conditions in his room are good but his bud rot indicates a movement problem. this could cause him to have a higher than normal rh locally around the plants. this in turn could cause a higher incidence of spores. bud rot and stem rot are both botrytis blight. pythium is a root disease usually caused by anoxia.

we know that the fungus did not originate in the containers. it was placed there with the cuts but this is normal and you won't see any symptoms unless the moisture content over a sustained period is high enough to start the spoors.

dip-n-grow is superb. i believe it acts as a disinfectant as well as a rooting hormone. it is used to root almost everything in the ornamental plant industry.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
jj, are you recommending that zeke trashes these containers that he has already paid for and worked on and change to another technique?

do you think this initial failure means there is something inherently flawed with this technique?
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
zeke, when you are ready to try again could you please put up a shot of your typical cutting? and please change that wick.

let's see if we can remove the aura of mystique that surrounds cloning.
 
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dgr

Member
the level in these cloners is set by container design. moisture content of the medium is controlled by the wicking material in this case.

my problem solving technique is a bit scatter shot. i ask a bunch of questions more or less at random as they occur to me. my humidity questions and zeke's answers helps me zero in on the problem.
Nah, you're just circling the target. Often gets there sooner as not. There were some details you were gathering that weren't evident to me.

bud rot and stem rot are both botrytis blight. pythium is a root disease usually caused by anoxia.
you're correct. My mistake. I completely blew by the bud rot piece you were also discussing. There are a number of fungus that can cause damping off including pythium. I also found there is a disease called "foot rot" in cuttings. I didn't dig into it but it sounds very much like mushy stems to me. Best to make the environment inopportune for all fungal growth.

we know that the fungus did not originate in the containers. it was placed there with the cuts but this is normal and you won't see any symptoms unless the moisture content over a sustained period is high enough to start the spoors.
Agreed, along with temperatures. Oddly enough, you don't hear water glass cloners complaining about botris or damping off. Which suggests to me that somewhere between too much water and not enough water is the danger zone.

Reading here:http://tomclothier.hort.net/page13.html makes me feel like a first year med student. Seems like no matter the environment, some fungus is going to be happy.
dip-n-grow is superb. i believe it acts as a disinfectant as well as a rooting hormone. it is used to root almost everything in the ornamental plant industry.
Agreed. It seems to work very well for me. Except when I lose 17/20. :laughing: I don't know about the disinfectant angle. They make no mention of it on my package. However, I think dip-n-grow by the way it is mixed, used and tossed prevents the creating of a fungal culture like is done when bottles of gel are opened and left laying around and especially when the stems are dipped directly into the bottle.

I have no doubt you guys will find the solution.
 

MedScientist

Hydronaut Ganjaneer
Hi! Its me... I'm trying to follow, but when things start getting real technical, it starts reading like Charlie Browns Mom! Hehehe

Sounds to me like stem rot, from being too wet? Why not take advantage of the PWT and just add more substrate? ... More air % the higher you go?
 

jjfoo

Member
he is using a big dome as opposed to several smaller ones.

What does this have to do with anything? You brought up dooms when you said we all cut like al, because they have to fit under a dome. I assumed you meant a normal dome. This was in the context of talking about what size cuttings one can take.
I wasn't saying using a dome is good or bad, just that his clones won't fit in a normal dome, as you suggested.
 

jjfoo

Member
jj, are you recommending that zeke trashes these containers that he has already paid for and worked on and change to another technique?

do you think this initial failure means there is something inherently flawed with this technique?

with all due respect, are you being defensive or am I just being too sensitive?

There isn't one way to do this stuff. I suggested reading someone else's method that works well for me. understanding how much water should be in your media is really clear from al's post


if you can feel a cube that is say 5 grams dry, then wet it to 30-35 and touch and hold it, it can be helpful. I came to see how little water it takes to provide water to the cutting, then I was able to better understand how to set the water table




Did I say anything to imply your technique is flawed? I can't recall or find any comments from me that suggest this.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
Hi! Its me... I'm trying to follow, but when things start getting real technical, it starts reading like Charlie Browns Mom! Hehehe

Sounds to me like stem rot, from being too wet? Why not take advantage of the PWT and just add more substrate? ... More air % the higher you go?


hi, in these containers the substrate level is exactly half of the volume and to add much more would limit headroom.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
What does this have to do with anything? You brought up dooms when you said we all cut like al, because they have to fit under a dome. I assumed you meant a normal dome. This was in the context of talking about what size cuttings one can take.
I wasn't saying using a dome is good or bad, just that his clones won't fit in a normal dome, as you suggested.


just acknowledging the fact that al uses a humidity control method also.
 
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delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
with all due respect, are you being defensive or am I just being too sensitive?

There isn't one way to do this stuff. I suggested reading someone else's method that works well for me. understanding how much water should be in your media is really clear from al's post


if you can feel a cube that is say 5 grams dry, then wet it to 30-35 and touch and hold it, it can be helpful. I came to see how little water it takes to provide water to the cutting, then I was able to better understand how to set the water table




Did I say anything to imply your technique is flawed? I can't recall or find any comments from me that suggest this.



with all due respect, are you being defensive or am I just being too sensitive?

There isn't one way to do this stuff. I suggested reading someone else's method that works well for me. understanding how much water should be in your media is really clear from al's post

if you can feel a cube that is say 5 grams dry, then wet it to 30-35 and touch and hold it, it can be helpful. I came to see how little water it takes to provide water to the cutting, then I was able to better understand how to set the water table




Did I say anything to imply your technique is flawed? I can't recall or find any comments from me that suggest this.

jj, what i fail to understand about your post is how it relates to us solving the problem that zeke is having. i have read a lot of al's stuff over the years and he is a smart guy but his technique is more time and labor intensive. and no more reliable. i have been using these cloners without a single failure for almost 3 years, but i have been using them a lot longer than that. at least 2 cuts a week for approximately 150 weeks, about 300 cuts, with no failures?

i have put a lot of thought and time into refining them to this point as part of an effort to develop a technique that a new grower can use with confidence.

i do this to help people grow. especially medically challenged people. every move i make, every design principle i test or implement, is towards this goal. streamlining and simplifying, testing again and again for function and reliability.

when i present something i realize that with it comes a responsibility to help people succeed.

i am in the middle of helping zeke become a successful cloner.

cloning is a personal obstacle for most new growers and quite a few more experienced growers also.

sometimes people use communication techniques that compare by omission, or by innuendo. they are communications nonetheless. just as music can be measured by the pauses between sound so can ideas and opinions be introduced by inference.

upon re-reading your posts i think that you and i are just wired up a little differently.

you talk about al's method of determining moisture content by using a gram scale as if it is more accurate. i submit to you that it is not. the turface and wicks behave the same way every time which also means that the moisture profile is the same every time. al uses a scale. i use a technique that does it automatically. i believe that any two of my containers would weigh within a few grams of each other but i don't feel the need to measure because of the success rate.

i think you actually like the idea of having to weigh the media. this is because of the way your mind works. you are detail oriented and like your t's crossed and your i's dotted. you like all your ducks lined up in a neat line walking in step. my ducks would look more like a bunch of drunken sailors trying to get back to the ship. this is not good or bad, just different. both groups of ducks will probably get there.

“understanding how much water should be in your media is really clear from al's post”

I agree totally. that's why i designed these this way.

“if you can feel a cube that is say 5 grams dry, then wet it to 30-35 and touch and hold it, it can be helpful”

if you use one of these cloners exactly the way I do you don't need to weigh anything. but you can still touch and hold them if you like. kind of kinky but to each his own.

you see, jj, i have an advantage here in that i have used a lot of cloning methods as well as these wicking containers.

you have not used these containers.

scrog mcduck, among others, instantly became a successful clone maker when he switched to these. he also germinated seeds in them.

the timing of your post was rather bad and a little bit distracting. that's all.

i have a high regard for your intellect but we do think a little bit differently.

later, d9
 
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High Country

Give me a Kenworth truck, an 18 speed box and I'll
Veteran
CLONING

CLONING

Cubes, jiffy pots, rapid rooters, coco, bubblers, aeroponics, rockwool, domes, no domes, bottom heat, heat mats, clonex, powders, nutrients, pH, size of clone, to trim or not to trim, aerial layering, when to take the clone, angle of cut, humidity......the list goes on.

For the life of me I cannot understand why people make cloning so complicated.....it can really be a simple process.

SO LET'S CLONE IN DIRT

40 CELL HIKO TRAY.....FILLED WITH DIRT

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MOTHER PLANTS

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40 CLONES...NO CLONEX....NO BOTTOM HEAT....JUST STABLE AIR TEMPS

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2 WEEKS LATER ALL HAVE ROOTS

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AND ARE THRIVING

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DIRT CLONES

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The joys of uncomplicated cloning....100% strike rate.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
here is a rene x nuken going into flower. it reached 32" total height in 4 weeks from transplant. this is in the 3 turface 1 rice hulls mix.

so i am getting about the same performance with this mix as i did with the 30 dollar a bag atami coco.

maybe a little better. the pics of the leaf show great expansion and o2 utilization.

the bag of turface is 10 dollars and 1.4 cu ft of volume. i use 9 quarts or 2.25 gallons of it in each container. a cu ft is approx 7.5 gals so i can pot at least 3 plants with one 10 dollar bag. the 3 quarts of rice hulls are even less expensive per volume which means that the cost of medium is less than 4 dollars per container.

there is no preparation other than rinsing and a 600 ppm pour through before transplanting.
 
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delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
Here's another bunch...cloned in....SPHAGNUM MOSS

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hey, high country! nice looking bunch of clones but i don't like dirt in the house so it's not for me.

sand works well too in your type of technique.

the goal is for everyone to find a technique that works well for them in their environment and is repeatable.

later
 

High Country

Give me a Kenworth truck, an 18 speed box and I'll
Veteran
the goal is for everyone to find a technique that works well for them in their environment and is repeatable.

later

I agree...many different ways to clone...I just keep it simple

AND YOU CAN EVEN GET A FLOWERING LEAF TO PUT OUT ROOTS

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REAL ROOTS

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It died though!
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
The pics of the leaf show great expansion and o2 utilization.

I see a monster five finger. I associate the size of the primary shadeleaves with overall vigor. So... That girl is killing it.

Is that what you mean when you say "Show great expansion and 02 utilization" in reference to the new media, or do you mean something more specific.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
I see a monster five finger. I associate the size of the primary shadeleaves with overall vigor. So... That girl is killing it.

Is that what you mean when you say "Show great expansion and 02 utilization" in reference to the new media, or do you mean something more specific.


no, you've got it. to me it means the air porosity is nearly perfect and the ppk is pumping o2 very well.

i really like this plant so far. like the g13, it is a prehistoric beast. eerily similar structure. both are stout with tight nodes.

the plant is a cross of "nuken" and a cut called rene that has been going around in bc for a long time. cut only apparently as there are no seeds available for it.

nuken is a kish x godbud cross.

kish is a double shishkaberry.

and it goes on and on. i tried back tracing genetics for all the strains i have now and it gets ridiculous. i don't think anyone really knows whats in the lineage of the seeds they sell anymore.

i'm just looking for some killer cuts.

this one is the first clone to go to flower. i have the seedling i germinated in flower right now with about six weeks to go.

i'm trying to develop a menu for variety.

when i started here at this location i had no competition. a little bud was around but mostly crap.

lots of bag schwag.

in just the last year there has been quite a bit of obviously shipped in bud of mostly decent but medium quality. all vacuum packed.

this new flow is the overflow from the growers in cali and co.

it has created a new class of pot snobs here.

everyone wants variety. so i will have variety. right now i've retired the sweet tooth for a while and have four strains growing in rotation so i'll get a different one every week.

i also have 3 more strains in the process of sexing right now.

it remains for me to grow them out and test them before i make final decisions.

i have 4 weeks left on the g13.

all these new genetics are a validation tool for both the ppk and the cloner.

so far i'm getting about the same growth with these new strains that i got with the sweet tooth.

i have now cloned them all without failure in the cloners.

we'll see how it adds up at harvest.
 
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delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
I agree...many different ways to clone...I just keep it simple

AND YOU CAN EVEN GET A FLOWERING LEAF TO PUT OUT ROOTS

picture.php



REAL ROOTS

picture.php



It died though!

hey, that's really cool when you think about it. if you could just get a leaf to grow an apical floral meristem.
 

jjfoo

Member
I should have been more clear. I am not trying to tell people how to clone, but thought that reading al's thread may give people a better fundamental understanding.


on a side note:

I can't remember if you mentioned this, but have you considered cloning with coco? I have had a lot of luck with just coco and a wick.
 
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