passive plant killer

[zeke99]

delta9, with the clones have you ever had them go moldy in the latch boxes? Today is day five for that set I posted a photo of. When I uncovered two of them, I found a gray (what had to be) fungus growing around the base of the cut at the surface of the turface. And the bottoms had rotted.

 

[delta9nxs]

delta9, with the clones have you ever had them go moldy in the latch boxes? Today is day five for that set I posted a photo of. When I uncovered two of them, I found a gray (what had to be) fungus growing around the base of the cut at the surface of the turface. And the bottoms had rotted.

i have never had this occur in these turface cloners but i have had it in non wicking cups before.

it is called botrytis blight. it is a fungal infection.

do you use dip-n-grow or a gel?

do you soak your cuts in chlorinated tap water as you process them from the plant to the container?

do you keep your knife in alcohol between uses?

since it is infectious remove them immediately.

did you build the containers with the same hole pattern i use?

just turface and flora nova?

what pattern of airing and hardening timing are you using?

i'll check back in a while

also, the water level in the bottom should not be higher than about 1/2.

what are you using for a wick?

 

[zeke99]

.

i have never had this occur in these turface cloners but i have had it in non wicking cups before.

it is called botrytis blight. it is a fungal infection.

do you use dip-n-grow or a gel? no

do you soak your cuts in chlorinated tap water as you process them from the plant to the container? yes

do you keep your knife in alcohol between uses? yes

since it is infectious remove them immediately. yes

did you build the containers with the same hole pattern i use? yes

just turface and flora nova? yes

what pattern of airing and hardening timing are you using? yours and today was day 5

i'll check back in a while - thank you

also, the water level in the bottom should not be higher than about 1/2. yes

what are you using for a wick? i think it's nylon rope. it's the material that i use for wicks in house plants

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, zeke! the only thing i can think of is that it is just something that got a start in your room somehow.

i think the dip-n-grow works as a disinfectant as well as a rooting hormone. a small bottle of it is about 9 bucks.

taking large cuts helps prevent disease. they are stronger than small cuts.

i run the clones at around 80 f without a lot of temperature swings.

i use polyester cloth rolled up as a wick for these. it's a very loose weave. maybe the nylon rope is keeping them too wet.

are all the others ok this morning?

well, that's all i got for now. keep me posted on this.

 

[zeke99]

hi, zeke! the only thing i can think of is that it is just something that got a start in your room somehow.

i think the dip-n-grow works as a disinfectant as well as a rooting hormone. a small bottle of it is about 9 bucks. - yeah I need to get some

taking large cuts helps prevent disease. they are stronger than small cuts. - I took them as large as could fit in the boxes and still put the covers on.

i run the clones at around 80 f without a lot of temperature swings. - got that covered, it's been consistently warm here

i use polyester cloth rolled up as a wick for these. it's a very loose weave. maybe the nylon rope is keeping them too wet.

are all the others ok this morning? so far so goood

well, that's all i got for now. keep me posted on this.

.

 

[zeke99]

well I lost four more, so 5 left. The four stems were rotted below the surface and green above the surface.

Maybe your'e right that the wicking material is keeping them too wet.

 

[delta9nxs]

well I lost four more, so 5 left. The four stems were rotted below the surface and green above the surface.

Maybe your'e right that the wicking material is keeping them too wet.

hi, zeke. i'm sorry you are having problems. i have been thinking about this and i think it may be tied to your room humidity also. the stuff has to be there somewhere in your room in spoor form or whatever form fungus travels in. it usually exist in places with high humidity.

the inside of the cloners are very humid but nearly sterile so i don't think it originated in them.

i keep room rh at 40-60 % almost constantly and never have this problem. the only thing that is different in the cloners we use is the wick. and the dip-n grow.

the stuff i use is thermolam plus from hobby lobby. i cut an approx 3 x 3" square of it and then roll it up into a cylinder shape before installing it.

don't you have an outside garden? if so, you may be bringing it in with you.

when i work in mine i shower and change clothes before going into my indoors plant area.

since i started this i haven't seen any more spider mites or thrips.

the turface is essentially sterile as it comes straight from a 1300 degree oven.

i rinse it with chlorinated tap water, let it drain, then soak the whole thing in the flora nova solution. by soak i mean i overfill the containers with the solution and let it stand with the medium top slightly covered so that the turface is immersed for about an hour.

then drain that and refill the bottom with solution. when draining make sure that you get most of the liquid out of the medium by tilting the container towards one corner to drain as much of the pwt as possible before the cut goes in.

it is getting close to 3 years since i have lost a clone using this method. i feel bad that you are having this occur.

well, it's 3 am and that's all for now. let's both think about it.

this is also called damping off disease by horticulturist.

 

[zeke99]

that is the method i used to pre-soak the turface.
i don't really ever work in the outside garden. It's just two plants next to the driveway that I water once a day.
now as for the rh you might be on to something. I need to upgrade the exhaust fan in my flowering room as the rh has exceeded the current fan's capabilities and I've got a little budrot going on in plants that are due to come be cut next week.

however the clones are in a room 2 floors above, with a closed door and it's been dry in there, because of the house AC. rh is in that room this morning is around 55%

you think the spores are just in the house?

 

[delta9nxs]

morning! that's got to be it as bud rot is the same stuff just on a bud.

the spores are everywhere all the time and the only pre-control is environmental. increase your air movement first. that might do it. i've got massive air flow and up to 60% rh i don't have any problems. when the rh gets higher than that i have gotten bud rot before.

the air flow decreases moisture around the plants also, regardless of rh. every plant in the room should be moving at least slightly from the air flow all the time, even during the dark phase.

if i could pick a rh% to run as an overall compromise i would pick 50%. when i move i'm going to a full controlled environment sealed room and i will have total control over humidity.

one thing to consider is that while your overall room rh may be 60% it is locally higher right around the plants. thinning foliage and a light df'ing after stretch really help reduce this.

i do the actual clone work in the kitchen away from the grow areas. i take the cuts and immediately totally submerse them in tap water and go to the kitchen to finish. i also prep the containers there. maybe this has something to do with it.

it is obvious that the cuts came from plants that were at least supporting some level of botrytis growth. it didn't originate in the clone containers. get the rh down, increase air flow, thin plants in flower after stretch and try again.

 

[zeke99]

the plant that I took the cuts from has never been flowered and shows no signs of infection and the humidity is always right around 50% in the veg room.

the overall room rh where the cuts are is closer to 50%, but I lost another today.

at least the four remaining don't appear to be rotting.

I really don't know what to do anymore. I have been trying and failing to take cuts for 2 years.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

zeke, I know this won't make you feel any better, but I've seen cloning 'systems' work perfectly in one location... get moved... and no more roots.

I am not convinced that cloning is a science, or an art.

I'm leaning towards blind luck, and approach the problem 'scattershot'.

 

[jjfoo]

zeke, I know this won't make you feel any better, but I've seen cloning 'systems' work perfectly in one location... get moved... and no more roots.

I am not convinced that cloning is a science, or an art.

I'm leaning towards blind luck, and approach the problem 'scattershot'.

google 'al b fuct cloning'

He gives a detailed way to root clippings with little guess work.

I took 18 cuts (large cuts), like this guys dos and got 18/18 with good roots in 7-9 days, just as he says will happen

I always use a cleaned razor blade to make the final cut as to not crush the stem.

I usually get roots with my stain in like 14 days, so seeing nice roots at 7 on some was great.

I think the trick is keep your cloning stuff sterile and do not over water. (or keep your water table too high)

He uses rockwool (as did I for my try of his method), but now I am doing a similar technique with coco in small pots.

I'm also using prime cuts from a mother instead of left over cuttings done preflower. So my cuttings are much larger than typical cuttings.

A few months ago I was getting less roots in longer times. Al b fuct's method has giving me a lot of confidence in rooting cuttings, which I previously lacked.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

I guess I didn't account for laboratory protocols when I made my statement.

Al Fucked is pretty intense.

Might be worth a try.

I still want a monkey to do it for me for a banana. Or something equivalent. Mango?

If you saw my world, the idea of having anything sterile for more than... well... more than nothing. I am a walking breeding ground. Like that bad machine Playpen.

In all seriousness... or some seriousness... (like a little bit of seriousness...) I've consistently had my best results in rockwool. But it's never around... soaked... and salad washer spun and ready to go. So I just go slasher style and hope for the best with whatever is handy. Cat litter? I've tried that.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, zeke! after thinking about this i believe your wick is the problem. it is probably keeping the medium too wet.

get some dip-n-grow. it's cheap. used by professional nursery people everywhere. the small bottle is around 9 bucks and will root thousands of cuttings if used as i've shown.

get a polyester cloth for a wick. any fabric store. the "thermolam plus" is used as an insulating layer in quilt making and is dirt cheap. a yard of it will do 144 clones cut into 3x3 squares.

you don't need to try a different method. this works as good as or better than anything i've ever used. i don't lose clones in these so it's not the method. i am not a magician and cloning is not magic. you need to find a track to run on that works the same every time.

these containers are that track if done with the same materials i use.

for lighting i have a 2x4' table with a regular 4' flo fixture using 2 40 watt daylight 6500k. and three 26 watt 6500k cfl's with reflectors.

i take cuts the same size as al b fuct. and if you took cuts as large as you can fit under the lid so do you.

we have had several other people that were having trouble cloning use these containers with success. one of them was scrog mcduck. i think he made a thread about it somewhere.

make these corrections and stay with it. you are close. there is absolutely no reason to change techniques after buying and building these cloners.

later

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

cloning is not magic

A plant is hanging out.

You cut off it's arm, stick it in dust, then in a bucket.

With some quilt liner.

Then it grows a new plant.

Sure as hell sounds like magic to me...

 

[jjfoo]

you don't need to try a different method. this works as good as or better than anything i've ever used. i don't lose clones in these so it's not the method. i am not a magician and cloning is not magic. you need to find a track to run on that works the same every time.

I think you are discounting your years of experience. To some people this is magic and they have no clue what they are doing to kill their clippings. I can speak from my own low strike rate in the past. I use to just take double the cuts they take the first half that rooted. Many died from dampening off.

I just think al's posts spell it out down to how many grams a cube show weight dry and wet. It is so specific that if you follow the steps you will get predictable results.

I currently like cloning in coco (tiny pots with wicks), then straight into coco. having one medium has different effects on the warted movement as does having two so I am problem going to stick with coco instead of rw. The same concepts apply.

the same size as al b fuct. and if you took cuts as large as you can fit under the lid so do you.

later

al doesn't use a lid (wont fit), so it is more like, if you can fit it under a lid you are not using the same size as al...

al recommends 9 inch stems, this is much bigger than I used to use, so to me this is large

I am assuming that if you asked 100 people you'd get less than half taking cuts this large. Many people consider cuttings as an after though when they clean up their plants for flowering and use scraps. I have just now come to realize that I want to use 9 inch cuts that are thick.

 

[dgr]

jjfoo,
I think Al is an incredible grower and he has his system dialed in. After all, he's a lazy stoner.

A couple points on his cloning. His method marries you to your clones in a clingy, I need daddy sort of way. At a minimum you must water your clones once a day. Sometimes twice a day. Al may as well be using a humidity dome. He has a closed box with a thermostatically controlled fan. He also runs a couple of T5s in there and a heat mat. All those things will contribute to high humidity. The only difference really is his lights are inside of his "dome."

Nothing above is meant to take away from his obviously successful cloning technique. But it's about the most labor intensive cloning method around. Kinda the opposite of what's going on here, no?

zeke,
I just lost 17 out of 20 clones with a technique that works well for me. It happens. Then on the flip side, I had cuttings that sat in the salad crisper for five weeks root faster than freshly cut ones. How green were your stems? Any chance you can try a little older but not quite woody stems? My clones with those stems seem to battle pythium better than fresh green stems.

 

[dgr]

delta,
Wouldn't increasing the air gap be the quickest way to drop the moisture level in the cloner media? I'm going to go post this in the PPK thread and see what those guys think.

the overall room rh where the cuts are is closer to 50%

zeke,

Pythium is EVERYWHERE. Anyone that doesn't have it doesn't have an environment that allows it to grow or is running a clean room.

I'm not sure where you guys are going with the room humidity. If you fill a closed box with water vapor, the humidity outside of the box isn't part of the system.

It could be as simple as you have 10% more light shining on the box as delta. Something is driving your humidity high enough for the pythium to actually show fuzzy growth on the surface.

The mechanics of cloning are pretty simple (when they work for me) If the clone wilts, it is not receiving/can't transpire enough water. The cut could be bad. The temp could be too high. The direct light could be too much. The local rh could be too low. The media could be too dry. If the clone rots, the environment was providing too much humidity and created an ideal environment for fungal growth.

I had my first successes in coco. So I'm of the ambient humidity school -- even when my A/C is running all day long. If they wilt, It's usually a bad end cut or drying media or air around the stem.

I think deltas cloners are a good way to reduce the variables. But as IF alluded to, they need to be tuned for your environment. You may well find that leaving the tops off of them 100% of the time may create an environment that is not conducive to fungal growth while providing enough local humidity for the plants to remain turgid until they put out roots. For me, if clones aren't wilting in coco, they don't rate any type of dome. When I do big cuts in rockwool, they get a dome because I'm not babysitting the little sissies.

good luck! I hope you get your cloning down. It's still very frustrating for me when, no matter what, the cuts just don't root.

PS. Those 17 I lost and their coco were treated with myclobutanil and had no humidity dome. Stem rot below the surface in 3 days! wheeeeee!

 

[delta9nxs]

here are a series of statements made by zeke and i over several posts.

what are you using for a wick? i think it's nylon rope. it's the material that i use for wicks in house plants

i use polyester cloth rolled up as a wick for these. it's a very loose weave. maybe the nylon rope is keeping them too wet.

Maybe your'e right that the wicking material is keeping them too wet.

the only thing that is different in the cloners we use is the wick. and the dip-n grow.

the stuff i use is thermolam plus from hobby lobby. i cut an approx 3 x 3" square of it and then roll it up into a cylinder shape before installing it.

I've got a little budrot going on in plants that are due to come be cut next week.

it is obvious that the cuts came from plants that were at least supporting some level of botrytis growth.

hey, zeke! after thinking about this i believe your wick is the problem. it is probably keeping the medium too wet.

get a polyester cloth for a wick. any fabric store.

 

[delta9nxs]

I think you are discounting your years of experience. To some people this is magic and they have no clue what they are doing to kill their clippings. I can speak from my own low strike rate in the past. I use to just take double the cuts they take the first half that rooted. Many died from dampening off.


actually, JJ, i used my years of experience to design a fail safe technique. zeke deviated from my design.


I just think al's posts spell it out down to how many grams a cube show weight dry and wet. It is so specific that if you follow the steps you will get predictable results.


turface in these cloners will have exactly the same moisture profile every time you use it if you use it the same way every time. this can be controlled by the wick material.


I currently like cloning in coco (tiny pots with wicks), then straight into coco. having one medium has different effects on the warted movement as does having two so I am problem going to stick with coco instead of rw. The same concepts apply.


a small amount of dissimilar material that does not form a uniform stratified layer across the container is not going to affect container hydraulics much. you have seen my plants. do you see any problems with them? the only problem i see is that they get too fucking big for my space. i guess i screwed up.


al doesn't use a lid (wont fit), so it is more like, if you can fit it under a lid you are not using the same size as al...


i was talking more about diameter and node count. my stems going into the medium are about the diameter of a pencil with 3 nodes. i get very tight node spacing. actually, to me, al's cuts look a little stretched out. it works for him but is not what i want.


al recommends 9 inch stems, this is much bigger than I used to use, so to me this is large


most people use cuts that are too small. they will have a lower survival rate.


I am assuming that if you asked 100 people you'd get less than half taking cuts this large. Many people consider cuttings as an after though when they clean up their plants for flowering and use scraps. I have just now come to realize that I want to use 9 inch cuts that are thick.

see above