P deficiency? Pics inside.

[blackone]

I repottet my plants into 6.5L pots with used BioBizz Light Mix soil one week ago, and now my plants aren't looking too good. 4 of my plants came from 4L pots with fresh soil and they don't show any problems, while all of the plants that came from 0.5L pots are getting brown and crispy tips and edges on the leaves. Then the leaves start curling upwards and the leaf dries out. By then the brown edges are black/greyish looking. I'm thinking this looks like the pics I've seen of P deficiency in the sick plants thread, so I gave them a light feeding of Bio Bloom (2mL/L).
What do you think? P def or perhaps something else? The pics here don't really show too well how it's the tips and edges that are affected, because I removed the leaves where it was showing clearly.
But you can see how the leaves curl up and how it starts from the bottom of the plant and moves upwards - a little too fast for comfort.

 

[ganjaLeaving]

hi blackone,

i don't think there is a deficiency cause you just transplanted a plant with little leaf matter in fresh soil.

i think that feeding them was a good thing to do. I would use something like 2-2-2 at 6.5 PH instead of bloom ferts but it'll do.

Your upper growth looks good so it is a lockout of P or K. Your ferts must have K as well. Just wait for them to recover before feeding again, cause of the transplant.

Good luck

 

[thecreeper]

this was copied from the complete guide to sick plants... etc

"Magnesium (Mg) - Micronutrient and Mobile Element


Magnesium helps supports healthy veins while keeping a healthy leaf production and its structure. Magnesium is significant for chlorophyll-production and enzyme break downs. Magnesium, which must be present in relatively large quantities for the plant to survive, but yet not too much to where it will cause the plant to show a toxicity.


Magnesium is one of the easiest deficiencies to tell… the green veins along with the yellowness of the entire surrounding leave is a dead giveaway, but sometimes that’s not always the case here. In case you have one of those where it doesn’t show the green veins, sometimes leaf tips and edges may discolor and curl upward. The growing tips can turn lime green when the deficiency progresses to the top of the plant. The edges will feel like dry and crispy and usually affects the lower leaves in younger plants, then will affect the middle to upper half when it gets older, but It can also happen on older leaves as well. The deficiency will start at the tip then will take over the entire outer left and right sides of the leaves. The inner part will be yellow and or brownish in color, followed by leaves falling without withering. The tips can also twist and turn as well as curving upwards as if you curl your tongues.


Excessive levels of magnesium in your plants will exhibit a buildup of toxic salts that will kill the leaves and lock out other nutrients like Calcium (Ca). Mg can get locked out by having too much Calcium, Chlorine or ammonium in your soil/water.
One of the worst problems a person can have is a magnesium def caused by a ph lockout. By giving it more magnesium to cure the problem when you are thinking you are doing good, but actually you are doing more harm then good. When the plants can’t take in a nutrient because of the ph being off for that element, the plant will not absorb it but it will be in the soil… therefore causing a buildup. A buildup will be noticed by the outer parts of the plant becoming whitish and or a yellowish color. The tips and part way in on the inner leaves will die and feel like glass. Parts affected by Magnesium deficiency are: space between the veins (Interveinal) of older leaves; may begin around interior perimeter of leaf."

 

[MynameStitch]

I think the feeding may have made the matter worse, so the ones you just transfered out of the smaller pots into a bigger pot; these were the smaller plants correct?
If so, what mixture did you put them in? I think you may have some burning going on; the soil seems it was already hot, but when you fed them the bio bloom it made matters worse; what soil mixture are these guys in?

You test the pH of the soil?

Are the bigger plants not showing any problems?

 

[blackone]

Hey MNS - My savior, hehe. I've seen how good results others have had listening to your advice so I'm all ears.
Ok I'll give the whole story: I took some clones 2 months ago when I started flowering my last batch. These were rooted in perlite/soil and then planted in 7 cm pots (400mL) with Light Mix. They didn't burn then so I don't think Light Mix is too hot for them - shouldn't be either since it's light right? ;p
They were supposed to be bonsai mothers for my current grow but because my order for 1L pots was delayed they got rootbound in the 400mL pots and growth slowed so I couldn't cut the 30 clones I wanted in time. Finally I decided to make a grow with fewer, but larger plants and repotted into as many 15 cm (4L) pots as I had, but I only had 4 pots so the rest went in some 500mL pots. All of the repotting was in fresh soil.
All of the plants liked the repotting but of course the plants in the 15cm pots really took off and are considerably larger than the others.

Here is the important part I meant to mention, but forgot to write down when I posted:
When I repotted into the 6.5L pots i reused the soil from my last grow - also Light Mix. Since the flowering plants had been on pure water for the last week I don't think it's because that soil is too hot either.. All of the nutrients in the already nutrient poor soil were probably used up. This combined with how much many of the leaves look like your pictures of P def made me consider it as a possibility.

Since I gave them Bio Bloom yesterday the browning isn't getting any worse, and it looks like they're already doing a little better but it's too early to tell.

I don't think it's a magnesium def because I don't see the light green veins, and my tapwater is pretty hard, with a nice magnesium content. Of course PH lock-out is a possibility, but I'm not quite sure how to measure soil PH with my pen, since I think it's made for liquids? I'll measure the runoff PH next time I water, although I normally only water until I see a little water running out - no more than the plant wicks up in a few minutes.

 

[MynameStitch]

Ok, I see now; well like I said it looked like it, cause nutrient burn does the same thing; so I Was not saying that was what was wrong; only guessing from the pics untill you gave me more information; so since nutrient burn is out of the question, nutrients are removed from the soil can cause the pH to rise or drop a bit; you have to test the pH; this is the only thing that could be pointing to a problem if not then I would feed them, P issues do not look like that, they are smaller rounder spots not random and P issues do not make leaves curl; pH and nutrient burn related issues does this......
Heat issues can do it too; but yours is not heat related.

You take the run off and get your pen and make sure it's calbrated before using it and make sure you have enough run off so the pen can read it accurately depending on what probe you have sometimes it requires it to be up to a certain level.

Collect the run off and post the pH readings here; so were the plants you have now were those the ones that were rootbound and you just put them into there new pots?

Who makes the light mix, what company; I can tell you what your pH readings need to be, but I need to know what is in the mixture before I can tell you what your pH needs to be.

 

[blackone]

Ok thanks. Light Mix is made by BioBizz, and is a low-nutrient alternative to their All Mix. I'll take a look at the runoff PH tomorrow - I think they're still too wet for another watering today, since I watered yesterday.

 

[MynameStitch]

Ya, just wait for the medium to dry out a bit; you don't wan to add another problem to the pot by giving it too much water, so lets wait and see what the pH is and then everyone who is wanting to help out can go from there....

Ya, that mix is only good for seedlings to be put in and after that you need to either add more to the mixture when you transplant or put them into different kind of soil....

I can't find what else is in the mixture besides perlite and worm castings.... does it say what else is in the mixture on your bag?

I am trying to find out if it's considered soiless or soil, but I think it may be more soiless not sure till I find out what else is in the mixture.

 

[blackone]

I'll check when I come home, but as I recall it contains peat, perlite and a small amount of organic nutrients. Not sure about the wormcastings.
And I probably should consider thinking about it as a soilless mixture, since it's been reused.
This is the description:

Light-Mix is an ideal potting soil for
organic gardeners who want to have
control over the growing process
through the application of liquid
fertilizers. Slightly fertilized it ensures
a fast development of roots and
vigorous new growth.

Any tips on measuring soil PH besides measuring runoff?

 

[MynameStitch]

Water, and have a pan at the bottom to collect the run off and get enough to where you can accurately take the pH.

 

[blackone]

Ok, I measured the runoff. I watered with a light nute solution (EC 1.1) put down to PH 6.5 with vinegar (My tapwater is 7.8, I haven't used PH down before)

The runoff PH was 7.2, and the EC was 1.87... I considered flushing it out with PH'ed water but I don't know if I could create more problems with overwatering, especially since the plants are still growing and the problem doesn't seem to be getting any worse. This is the same plant, 2 days ago and now:

 

[MynameStitch]

Well, I say you should wait a bit and see if the problem goes away, dude EC 1.8 is pretty high, nutrient levels need to be a little weaker in soil than hydro levels.....
There is some good amount of nutrients in that soil......

Depending on what . conversion you have or using... depnds on the model; what model are you using?

your ppms could be 800-1120 thats too high for a plant that size let alone in soil!
That is why I said it looked like it was burned, it acts just like it is showing the signs nutrient burn can cause.

What size container is the plant in? if you have it in the right size container for the size of the plant and you have enough perlite added you won't have to worry about the plan suffering from overwatering; there will be some signs of moisture stress and you can't avoid that when you flush.... fans on the soil help dry it out quicker too.

 

[blackone]

I think it's the other way around. 1.8 EC will always be the same nute concentration no matter what meter you're using. I've got a Hanna meter (conv:500) so I would have read 935 ppm. Someone using another meter and reading 1120 wouldn't make the solution hotter.
Anyway what do you think I should do? Leach the pots, use pure PHed water next time or continue with a light concentration of nutes?

And why do you think I don't get the problem in the pots that contain 4 liters of fresh soil and only 2.5 liters of reused soil? Is it just because those plants are bigger and can handle higher EC?

 

[MynameStitch]

http://planetganja.com/highsociety/attachment.php?attachmentid=48938&d=1151053933

There is different conversions like .5 .6 and .7 kind of stuff

here is a conversion chart in that link I pasted.

Yes, bigger plants can take more nutrients (higher ppm levels)

All strains are also different some strains can take higher ppms, if you have 2 different strains and they are the same size and your giving them the same stuff same care same soil and the other one is showing signs like your plant; that means the plant is not liking the amount of nutrients you are giving it. So strain has a lot to do with it too, so does the size of the plant.

This is a first I ever seen reused soil be hot; did you add any nutrients to the soil or water with nutrients soon before plants were removed from the mixture? There had to be some nutrients that were left in there the plant does not like the level of nutrients in there.... so I am just wondering if this is reused soil how the plant is being burned..... very weird situation.....

 

[blackone]

I feel it's strange too. I used pure water for the last 7 or 8 days when I flowered.
It might be from a nute imbalance perhaps? Like - if one nutrient was being added too much in my last grow it could have accumulated?
Wouldn't it be nice if it was easy to measure the exact concentration of each element ;p

I haven't been watering with an EC higher than 1.3 this round. Perhaps evaporation is a possible explanation also? Like - if the smaller plants didn't drink much water the evaporation from bare soil could have concentrated the nutes a great deal.

The plants that are showing the worst symptoms are all clones of the same mother, and that one seemed more nute shy the last round (which is why I chose other clones to go in the 4 liter pots before). Of course it turns out this pheno is also the one with the best aroma and possibly even a good growth structure for potential yield (doesn't shade it's own buds as much as the other phenos) so I'm happy I kept all of my phenos for this round.

Just gotta dial that girl in

 

[blackone]

Yeah it's probably quite likely that it's a burn, I remembered seeing his picture in ItsGrowTime's thread here= http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=66278&page=2&pp=15, and it almost looks like what I have:

 

[MynameStitch]

You know what, the only thing that comes to mind is maybe it's not reused and it was used thinking it was? Not sure just a thought.....
Another thing that comes to mind is how long you let it set before reusing it?

LEft over nutrients in the soil, when you leave them be can become stronger, but it takes time and if you used nutrients like fox farm or liquid ferts and watered it; they can stay in the soil.

Ya, that pic you showed has too much bloom, a P toxcity, it's like a P deficiency but it affects the whole leaf quickly and causing curling and crispy leaves; it breaks down the leaves cell structure in the leaf causing it to crisp; this is caused by when the burn colapses the water structure of inside the leaf causing it to dry up and that is where you get your crispy feeling and the curling; when you chop a plant and have it hanging once water has transpired for the most part of the leaves it curls; curling is last chance resort for the leave to save water and try to save the leaves that are affected.

the curling tries to protect it from any amount of light or heat that could contribute to it further from being damaged by environmental issues outside of what the real problem caused (nutrient burn)

 

[blackone]

Nah it's reused alright I used Bio Grow, Bio Bloom and AlgaMic, and I planted in the soil 1 or 2 days after harvesting.

 

[MynameStitch]

Oh I am sure it's reused like you said it was; I was jsut giving you examples as to what MAY have happened

Ok I am confused; you planted in the soil 1 to 2 days AFTER harvest?

 

[blackone]

I repotted my current grow into the used soil 1-2 days after the harvest of my last grow