overfert/high pH/nute lockout?

[minds_I]

Hello all,

I think I phvqved up-five days ago I fed my flowering girls a does of ewc/hi P guana (3-10-1)/molasses/kelp. Before I gave it to them, I gave a boost in N by adding 1/2 strenght Alaska fish shit. I adjusted the pH to 6.5 using ash water. I did not test the runoff.

Anyway, last night it was clear that I over did the ash water as the plant was showing signs of a fert burn combined with increasing chloriosis(sp) of older leaves. I believe the pH was way too high given the soil has D.lime (1 tbsn/gallon) in FFOF/ewc/perlite (50%/20%/30%) locking out N.

So Last night I flushed until the pH was 7.0 and then I gave a small shot of ewc/hi P guano/kelp just enough to get a little runoff which pH'ed at 6.75-7.

My plan is to leave it alone till next watering.

They are three weeks into flowering and have alot of buds sights. It is kind of ironic as I was looking into trimming the fan leaves back but it would seem I inadvertantly did that.

I am hoping I have contained the pH issue.

Your thoughts on the issue would be helpful. If I left out any info just ask.

Has anyone else experienced a very low pH with ewc/guano airated teas?

Further- I went and purchased EJ pH up.

minds_I

The first is what they looked like on 5/29, the last four are last night.

 

[Blackmelo]

doesn't really look like a burn but i might be wrong. Looks more like a potassium deficiency. You should be feeding a nute that contains about the same ratio as the phosporous or you need to ammend wht you are feeding to get the right ratio.

As far as I can tell you are feeding it ten times less potassium than phosphorous.

It might also be lacking a bit of nitrogen.

 

[minds_I]

I was thinking it was a nitrogen deficiency due to high pH.

Tonight they look better after the flush. I trimmed all the yellowing damaged leaves.

I sort of chemically trimmed my plants it would seem. After I remnoved all the damaged leaves, I was left with a fairly trimmed of shade leaf plants.


As far as K is cincerned- I use liquid kelp and molasses as well. My K concentrations should be good.

Pics tomorrow.

They do look better. That is to say they don't look worse.

minds_I

 

[wikidcalibudgrl]

i think if your pH was off enough to cause N lockup then your plant would be showing more signs/problems,,, overall, the plant looks a lil pale,,, the leaves all look right ( no leaf curl/twist/"clawing")
,, besides from the yellowing, they look ok & seeing how that it looks as if it started( the yellowing) from bottom & moved up,, I would venture to guess you're just dealing with a N def. you're flowering so you don't need AS MUCH N, but the plant still needs some to sustain it's leaf base... try uping the N just a little,, if it were later in flower, i'd say it looks normal tho :wink:

 

[minds_I]

Yeah, I know, thats what I was thinking also, but after I hit them last week with high dose of N and P the quickness with which the yellowing set in combined withthe fact that the soil has lots of N (FFOF-3 weeks in this soil at the time of the fert boost.).

Combined witht he runoff was close to 8 I concluded it was a high pH swing.

But now I am further confused as pH swings in soil are not quite so drastic-from what I have read anyway.

All and all, they looked better after 24 hours from the flush. It will be days before I will need to water/fed as the pots are quite saturated but not overly so.


I think they will recover. I am concerned about hitting them with more N will in flower but if it is necessary......


I think the next watering/feeding is going to be ewc/guano (3-10-1)/kelp/molasses. Depending on what hte plants are telling me, I will increase the strenght of the ewc/guano teas.

minds_I

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Heres how they look tonight. I have removed all the damaged leaves last week. Yet the yellowing still is progressing up the plant.

I fed them last night with ewc/bg(3-10-1)/kelp (0-0-4.5) pH'ed to 6.25. The runoff was 6.75-perfect.

So, why are they still yellowing???

If its not the pH and its not the soil (FFOF/ewc/perlite)-what could it be???

Help please,

minds_I

 

[minds_I]

bump?????

 

[Guest]

This is a problem a ran into my last grow. About 1/2 way through bloom, maybe a little earlier it started.

From what I could glean from knowledgeable growers, it probably has something to do with the *ratios* of nutes and trace elements, Calcium being a big one... I don't know enough to understand it (sorry) but something about Ca and the way it affects uptake of K and then that has some effect on N... they're all linked.

I know that isn't much help, but the problem looks identical to mine. I never got it straightened out. Like yours, a flush made mine begin to look better, then they'd dive right back into rapid yellowing of fans and an apparent N deficiency. Once it started it kinda snowballed and I couldn't get on top of it.

.canine.

 

[minds_I]

Well lets look at this another way-instead of what is it lacking-what does it have too much of?

The soil is 50%/20%/30% FFOF/ewc/compost/1 tbsn/gallon D.lime (calcium and magnesium)

I am using liquid kelp at recommended doses (maybe a touch more).
I am using molasses at 1tbsn/liter (yes it is high)

I have been using ewc teas with kelp and molasses. I also have been using a bat guano (3-10-1) the last few weeks in the ewc teas. I have been using them at 1.5 tbsn/liter.

My ewc teas are 1 tbsn/liter with 4cc/liter liquid kelp and 1.5 tbsn molasses. I bubble this 24-48 hours.

I thought I had all my bases covered.

Does this look like a molybdenum def?


minds_I

 

[OHenry]

It looks like your not feeding them nearly enough balanced substance. The kelp/ fish oils etc...make for good boosts...sometimes, but a nute like EJ Grow/Bloom will certainly help.

I've never checked the ph of my soil, of my water for feed, or my runoff. I've never added lime etc to the soil or used ph up/down. Although a few friends of mine do otherwise, I am more than happy w/ 1.5/lb per 600w and I know MANY who do the same.

I think you should flush, then go to a organic nute like Earth Juice Bloom with lower "flowering cylce" amounts of nitrogen (Earth Juice Grow). You'll be close to harvest by the time you get it resolved so stop with the heavy oils that will stay in the soils during the final flushes.

Use the suppliments to get a boost when needed. Microblast wouldn't be bad either.

I think you'll find this will work. I hope it will. Oh

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Perhaps it is just an N def.

I found this googling- I have missed this sick plant guide from OG.

Read what is wriiten about N def. It mentions the purplish coloring that I seem to have and matches the symptoms best.

What do you think?

minds_I

EDIT: I seem to have two congruent threads, my apologies to all.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=29769

 

[Captain Hook]

I fed them last night with ewc/bg(3-10-1)/kelp (0-0-4.5) pH'ed to 6.25. The runoff was 6.75-perfect.

So, why are they still yellowing???


Because the ph ISN'T perfect. In soil it's best not to go much higher than 6.1 when mixing ferts or adjusting plain 'ol water to hit your girls with.
Beyond that, if my runoff was 6.75 I would be in a mild panic.... because that's way too high... so my next step would be that they'd get a good flush immediately.
Try to stay in the range of 6 - 6.1 as closely as possible. Going as high as 6.5 and beyond causes major lockouts....
someone recently posted a graph here at IC showing exactly which nutes become available/locked out as the scale went from something like 5.0 to 7.0 - I wish I could remember where it was posted....
if you want to find/see it you might try starting a new thread asking whoever it was to post it again - that or do a few searches for things like "ph scale"... "graph"... "lockout"... I wish I could look for it to help ya out but I don't have enough time right now. Hope it get's better for ya...
worst comes to worst just take the leaves off... if they're shading buds I'd rip a lot of 'em out anyway. I know they say you shouldn't do that but this debate has some pretty experienced people changing their minds lately... I read about it in C. Culture or HT... or maybe one of those other canna mags.
Anyhow,
Good luck!
cap

 

[Guest]

From my experience leaves that started to yellow will never recover and die rather soon. PH 6.5 is what you should aim for, imho

 

[wikidcalibudgrl]

Minds_I

saw you mention "missing the sick plant thread from OG" There is a STICKY thread here in the Infirmary By MyNameStich,,, The Complete guide to Sick Plants, pH, and Pest troubles!
it's really good, an i believe it was inpart from that OG thread... ( don't raz me,, i said i think, i could be wrong) I know Stich worked hard on it, and it's VERY informative :wink: Check it out

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Wikid, I have seen that guide and it is quite informative. It does indeed refer to the slight purpling of yellowing leaves in a N deficient situation.

Highway's guide is a companion guide so to speak. Also, in Highway's guide, the N def pic resembles mine and it was not until I saw this that I went back to Stich's guide and confirmed that I have an N def.

Ok, the only reason I should be low on N now is that I am half way through flowering and the plants have gone into survival mode so to speak and are drawing the N from the older fan leaves.

Could the sudden loss of leaves been genetic? That is, could the plants just be fert hogs? Never grew them before-I got them as clones. They are supposed to be Mazars-from which seedbank I can not say.

Anyway, pH seems to be fine. The soil has oyster lime and dolomite lime so the pH can't have gone past 7 for too long to lockout N.

I am thinking I should give them some N else they will consume themselves.

What are your thoughts. The pics above are from last night.

I am supposed to water or fed tonight. I am leaning on giving them the tea:

1 tbsn/liter ewc/compost
1.5 tbsn/liter guano (3-10-1)
1 tbsn molasses
4cc/liter liquid kelp (0-0-4.5) full strenght

bubbled 48 hours now
EDIT: I am going to dilute this by one half with water.

minds_I

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Heres what they look like tonight?


I fed them with the above tea mix 50/50 with water-pH 6.25.

The runoff is 7. As it should be with the D.lime. I don't think the D.lime is adversely affecting the pH negitively as it is in all the other mixes I have going and not a problem-all my plants are dark green from the rich FFOF and ewc.

minds_I

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Update:

Why is this continuing to happen? I have been feeding with ewc/guano (3-10-1)/molasses/kelp (0-0-4.5) tea. They were fed night before last with above tea and on the 15th with 1/2 strenght(just flushed) above tea. Runoff is 6.75.

Am I just not giving them enough of what they want?

minds_I

PS: approximately 4 weeks left till harvest- what would you do?

PSS-notice the purpling is mostly in the tops.

Perhaps a molybdenum def?

 

[wikidcalibudgrl]

are your temps really up and down to any extreme? any large shift in"day" to "night" temps will cause purpling....

I don't know what else to add, but i think if these were mine i'd flush the hell outa them again,an go with plain fresh ph'd( if you can)water for the last 4 weeks,,, think of it as a long flush before harvest... don't think there's time to really help them by "fixing"(or working out the kinks) the feeding problem.. but either way looks like you'llhave a few choice nugz to enjoy soon!

 

[minds_I]

Hello,

The minimun temps are 69*F so no extreme temp shifts-10*-12* tops.

I do not think just water is going to hold them. The plant will start to consume itself (mobile elements) if not given more nutes I am thinking.

Still- it takes time to see an improvement on deficiencies once treated in soil so I will wait and see how things are in a few days. It will be time to water by then anyway.

I am hoping to score an O 1/2 to last till next harvest (I have 2 Afghanis in the flower cab now) and they will be done 4 weeks after the Mazars.

I am working on a perpetual grow-however it is hard to do with space.

minds_I

 

[MTF-Sandman]

Honestly it still kinda looks like an N lockout to me...maybe caused by high PH or dry/compacted soil. I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but it's my gut feeling.

69F will make some strains purple, so that could explain the purpling...or it could be from the lack of N in the leaves allowing the anthocyanins to show through what would normally be green.

The long times it takes to show a change in soil are why I go with coco