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Overfeeding in organic living soil
- Thread starter Cvh
- Start date
Thanks for the reply MedResearcher.
Any idea which amendments are know to possible burn plants?
I think my mentor once mentioned you need to watch out with bloodmeal. Also with some types of (uncomposted) manures.
As for the Biobizz products. Is the Biobizz fish-mix equally safe as the Biobizz Grow? It has a higher N content.
The plant sure loves that fishmix. I have never seen anything like it not even with chem.
Any idea which amendments are know to possible burn plants?
I think my mentor once mentioned you need to watch out with bloodmeal. Also with some types of (uncomposted) manures.
As for the Biobizz products. Is the Biobizz fish-mix equally safe as the Biobizz Grow? It has a higher N content.
The plant sure loves that fishmix. I have never seen anything like it not even with chem.
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M
moose eater
My experience with organic growing (though I haven't used the specific products you're using) is this (the analogy given to me years ago);
It's a lot like turning an oil tanker, starting or stopping a loaded locomotive, or changing national policies; it typically takes a long time to start, and an even longer time to stop or turn.
In other words, it's more difficult (typically) to become toxic in efficiency with organics, but once you're there, rots-a-ruck. It's a bear to bring back to normalcy with any speed, without engaging in serious and harsh methods.
That's my understanding anyway, and I've achieved a 'burn' with organics a time or two.. Sometimes learning hurts.
It's a lot like turning an oil tanker, starting or stopping a loaded locomotive, or changing national policies; it typically takes a long time to start, and an even longer time to stop or turn.
In other words, it's more difficult (typically) to become toxic in efficiency with organics, but once you're there, rots-a-ruck. It's a bear to bring back to normalcy with any speed, without engaging in serious and harsh methods.
That's my understanding anyway, and I've achieved a 'burn' with organics a time or two.. Sometimes learning hurts.
Let me clear things up a bit because it can be confusing as the definitions are used in commercial agriculture. There is generally conventional and certified organic farming and the transition between the two and this relates to farms that plant outdoors in open fields.
That same spectrum and the effect it has on the plants applies it to container grown plants, artificial environments but more importantly has profound effects on secondary metabolite production.
It is important to understand that the plant does not produce cells for plant tissues (primary metabolites) and plant chemicals (secondary metabolites) equally but rather they use a more complex set of cues not of all which are the same.
What that means in simple terms is what feeds the physical plant growth does not necessarily help chemical expression
if you take a good look at the test results of the same cut of GG4 for example grown and submitted to the emerald cup they all vary in chemical profile
growers incorrectly assume a perfect nutrient profile in ions equate to a perfect chemical expression when all it does is force one
in nature the plant itself selects what chemicals to produce based on environmental cues the most critical and potent belonging to the soil web interactions it has evolved to express in over millions of years
this interaction is only full realized when you let the plant and soil determine its own microbial populations not when you force them
transitional exploits the microbiological relationships but it also limits them to what you choose, a great way to ensure crop hardiness with little effort and brings a far better product than can be had in chems alone
that said, every step towards microbiological activity that is tailored by plant and soil interactions that are not hampered by farming practices but facilities by them makes a difference in the end product AND brings the methodology closer to absolute sustainability
not that I find anything wrong with biobizz and the direction you are going in, I took a very parallel path using american products but as you find the benefits and get a comfort level consider how you might maintain the soil with as little intervention as possible other than water (the rest is great back up in a pinch no matter what) and let microbiology fill the gap between optimal nutrition and optimal expression
the hardest thing for any gardener to do is use less of something in hopes of better results but in reality it is like setting up a fish tank and letting the microbiology establish and it becomes self maintaining
you are employing many of the mechanism and gaining many of the benefits with a good level of control so as you use these results to set a new base line for your own performance keep them in mind as they should be no different as you continue your transition if that is your desire because the benefits should increase not decrease but there is a great rift of knowledge when something goes wrong and I learned that the hard way so don't let my bravado push you past a point of comfort.
Point is if you like what you are seeing now it only gets better as you learn to exploit the natural preexisting relationship between plant and living soil
there was a learning curve going from transitional to recycling which is why i suggest maybe when you do consider taking that step trying it in a container off to the side or something
tbh I tested some of my organic methods in my veggie garden before i used them on pot because it was a far safer litmus test
a good percentage of a plant's chemical defense production is in a reaction to simple environmental conditions it senses in soil many of which are triggered by lack and not abundance
myrcene for example is expressed by some plants in greater abundance as a reaction to low n assumed to be the payload of insects
in fact one reason many cultivars have been lost over the term is because they expressed on way in nature but that expression was muted when cultivated with modern techniques so people couldn't' select based on them
one of the most frustrating aspects of this is the denial by many about the variation of expression using various techniques and the implications on today's homogeneous gene pools but I have been trying to have that conversation for over a decade but gets sidelined by the no nothing trolls who ran rampant in gypsy's absence
most people mute expression trying to get the most plant they can for the fullest jar they can envision and that makes the rest of it almost impossible to learn and I can't even count the number of "educated scientists" with their head up their asses to the same dynamic
myrcene for example is expressed by some plants in greater abundance as a reaction to low n assumed to be the payload of insects
in fact one reason many cultivars have been lost over the term is because they expressed on way in nature but that expression was muted when cultivated with modern techniques so people couldn't' select based on them
one of the most frustrating aspects of this is the denial by many about the variation of expression using various techniques and the implications on today's homogeneous gene pools but I have been trying to have that conversation for over a decade but gets sidelined by the no nothing trolls who ran rampant in gypsy's absence
most people mute expression trying to get the most plant they can for the fullest jar they can envision and that makes the rest of it almost impossible to learn and I can't even count the number of "educated scientists" with their head up their asses to the same dynamic
That's a very insightful and helpfull post Weird. Thank you for that. 
This also explains to me why some people that are looking for certain phenotypes of a specific cultivar actually want to grow in the same region and soil and under the same conditions where it once was found.
I think I should indeed try to set my baseline and get the most out of it with these products.
After this I can try to take on the Super Soils, No-Till,.. and compare the results with this baseline.
Do you happen to have anymore info about these primary and secondary metabolites/pathways? I heard it before that environmental factors are what determines the physical expression of a certain genotype aka phenotype and the specific chemical makeup of the cannabinoids and terps,...etc.
As for your second post would you agree then that products like insect frass and crabmeal (Chitin, Chitosan,...) that mimic an insect attack could improve the cannabinoids and terps?
This also explains to me why some people that are looking for certain phenotypes of a specific cultivar actually want to grow in the same region and soil and under the same conditions where it once was found.
I think I should indeed try to set my baseline and get the most out of it with these products.
After this I can try to take on the Super Soils, No-Till,.. and compare the results with this baseline.
Do you happen to have anymore info about these primary and secondary metabolites/pathways? I heard it before that environmental factors are what determines the physical expression of a certain genotype aka phenotype and the specific chemical makeup of the cannabinoids and terps,...etc.
As for your second post would you agree then that products like insect frass and crabmeal (Chitin, Chitosan,...) that mimic an insect attack could improve the cannabinoids and terps?
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Stickybred420
Active member
i feel like we need to give weird more credit for his organic trials/ experience and his willingness to share this info.
i was lucky enough to be presented with many options for how to skin the proverbial cat when i began thinking about growing. dwc seemed the most attractive to me because of the fact you can dial your mixes really accurately. the price of everything made the pill really had to swallow though (im fuckin poor). anyway i spent a lot of time researching methods and results and once i learned about tlo/rols/los it was hard for me to validate any other method once you see how consistent and amazing the results are and how cheap it is to start and maintain. you would be a believer. now im not talkin shit on those other methods because they do work and people can do some amazing things with them, but really once you rip off a full organic grow, just feeding water it really blows your mind how easy it actually is to keep this plant happy. provided your environment is adequate aswell. i cant ever see myself switching. theres just no need. im gonna take a dab and stop ranting. but i promise your grow results wont get any worse by listening to weirds info. he really does know his shit.
i was lucky enough to be presented with many options for how to skin the proverbial cat when i began thinking about growing. dwc seemed the most attractive to me because of the fact you can dial your mixes really accurately. the price of everything made the pill really had to swallow though (im fuckin poor). anyway i spent a lot of time researching methods and results and once i learned about tlo/rols/los it was hard for me to validate any other method once you see how consistent and amazing the results are and how cheap it is to start and maintain. you would be a believer. now im not talkin shit on those other methods because they do work and people can do some amazing things with them, but really once you rip off a full organic grow, just feeding water it really blows your mind how easy it actually is to keep this plant happy. provided your environment is adequate aswell. i cant ever see myself switching. theres just no need. im gonna take a dab and stop ranting. but i promise your grow results wont get any worse by listening to weirds info. he really does know his shit.
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Just as an update to my thread.
I know now first hand that organic nutrients can burn...
My mentor taught me all about aerated compost teas (ACT's), but I still wasn't convinced organic nutrients can burn your plants.
So during my last grow when I was preparing another batch of ACT I said to myself I really want to see if organic nutrients can burn your plants or not. So I threw in a lot everything I had in the bucket and let it bubble for 48 hours...
I gave the plant then 2x 1,5l over a 3 day period.
Oh boy, did it burn the plant good... It didn't take long for the first signs of overfertilisation to appear. Less then a week...
Just watch how she was clawing.
I then flushed her good and gave her only plain water till harvest. It survived it and I got some nice buds from her in the end.
A few days before chop:
My next organic grow will be with only dry nutrients mixed into the soil and topdressed. I'll start it in september when the majority of the heat here is gone.
I know now first hand that organic nutrients can burn...
My mentor taught me all about aerated compost teas (ACT's), but I still wasn't convinced organic nutrients can burn your plants.
So during my last grow when I was preparing another batch of ACT I said to myself I really want to see if organic nutrients can burn your plants or not. So I threw in a lot everything I had in the bucket and let it bubble for 48 hours...
I gave the plant then 2x 1,5l over a 3 day period.
Oh boy, did it burn the plant good... It didn't take long for the first signs of overfertilisation to appear. Less then a week...
Just watch how she was clawing.
I then flushed her good and gave her only plain water till harvest. It survived it and I got some nice buds from her in the end.
A few days before chop:
My next organic grow will be with only dry nutrients mixed into the soil and topdressed. I'll start it in september when the majority of the heat here is gone.
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M
moose eater
Nice shots, cvh.
The very first folks' instruction I followed re. teas (mostly guanos, augmented with kelp extract and vitamin B back then) advocated feeding organic teas until the leaf tips showed minor signs of excess feed, then back off.
Over the years, and despite the number of times I've caused harm to plants with 'too much love,' I think in general they were excessive, though not catastrophically so.
I think making myself back off before the burn, when the plants simply look happy and healthy, is the better way.
It may forfeit a bit of this or that, but I think stopping before it gets to the point of even a (consistent little) bit of visible burn on the tips is the time to give 'er a rest, and flush a bit.
But there've been times I had to damned near handcuff myself in that process.
The very first folks' instruction I followed re. teas (mostly guanos, augmented with kelp extract and vitamin B back then) advocated feeding organic teas until the leaf tips showed minor signs of excess feed, then back off.
Over the years, and despite the number of times I've caused harm to plants with 'too much love,' I think in general they were excessive, though not catastrophically so.
I think making myself back off before the burn, when the plants simply look happy and healthy, is the better way.
It may forfeit a bit of this or that, but I think stopping before it gets to the point of even a (consistent little) bit of visible burn on the tips is the time to give 'er a rest, and flush a bit.
But there've been times I had to damned near handcuff myself in that process.
one of the most frustrating things for me is that people are afraid of to little more than they are afraid of too much and my simple argument has always been if you use too much the burn stalls growth longer and limits potential more than underfeeding
some of my gallery contains slat fed plants from before I transitioned and I never did more than 800 - 1200 ppm collectively and as I added individual facets of organic cultivation I had to lower them because they potentiate each other
one of the problems is people go by this magical feed formula for maximum performance before they know how their cultivar with perform in a environment with different variables
light intensity and other environmental influence need and that is shown in the plant so part of dialing in a room regardless of how you feed a plant is finding the base feed regiment for that specific environment and building up from there
when you are working with microbiology and soils sometimes you don't have the same direct response to inputs so feeding til burn and backing off is especially bad
it is like working out until your arms start to tear in hopes that that kind of tissue damage will repair before the next workout, which it will not
you can have a plant just a lil hungry, give it the lightest about of ions or tea and get it to respond insantly
if you are growing in soil and don't want to contaminate it you can use a salt based foliar to get ions to the plant without influencing the soil
and regardless of how you grow ions are used very quickly by the plant so it will respond very quickly and favorably to them when in need so if you are growing by look it is the safest way to approach dialing in your plants
if you use soil and ind yourself underfed you can use what you add to dial them in as a gauge what to have in the soil the next time you run them
this is why I find so many of the test absurd without past cultivar performance as a basis and even then if you know how to dial in from the underfed you really don't need that
some of my gallery contains slat fed plants from before I transitioned and I never did more than 800 - 1200 ppm collectively and as I added individual facets of organic cultivation I had to lower them because they potentiate each other
one of the problems is people go by this magical feed formula for maximum performance before they know how their cultivar with perform in a environment with different variables
light intensity and other environmental influence need and that is shown in the plant so part of dialing in a room regardless of how you feed a plant is finding the base feed regiment for that specific environment and building up from there
when you are working with microbiology and soils sometimes you don't have the same direct response to inputs so feeding til burn and backing off is especially bad
it is like working out until your arms start to tear in hopes that that kind of tissue damage will repair before the next workout, which it will not
you can have a plant just a lil hungry, give it the lightest about of ions or tea and get it to respond insantly
if you are growing in soil and don't want to contaminate it you can use a salt based foliar to get ions to the plant without influencing the soil
and regardless of how you grow ions are used very quickly by the plant so it will respond very quickly and favorably to them when in need so if you are growing by look it is the safest way to approach dialing in your plants
if you use soil and ind yourself underfed you can use what you add to dial them in as a gauge what to have in the soil the next time you run them
this is why I find so many of the test absurd without past cultivar performance as a basis and even then if you know how to dial in from the underfed you really don't need that
M
moose eater
I typically (eventually) keep mothers in specific cupboards underneath 4' fluorescent 2-bulb shop hoods with white reflectors, 2 hoods and 4 bulbs per cupboard, sometimes thoroughly converted to LED tubes (though they seem to resent the Feit LED conversion spectrum at ~4000k more than they desire for the 5600k or 6500k in bright blue white fluorescent for simply treading water, along with 'some' healthy growth; a few more watts in the fluorescents, but I think the mother and clone cupboards are headed backward in evolution, to pre-LEDs, unless I can find a suitable bright white 4' LED conversion bulb that proves itself).
That said, I noted a long time ago that the food absorption and processing under the fluorescents or LED tubes, was MUCH less than the rate of same under even a 400hps or now, the 315s.
Much less feed required to freak them out under the lesser lighting.
Edsels or Model A's versus alcohol-fueled dragsters.
That said, I noted a long time ago that the food absorption and processing under the fluorescents or LED tubes, was MUCH less than the rate of same under even a 400hps or now, the 315s.
Much less feed required to freak them out under the lesser lighting.
Edsels or Model A's versus alcohol-fueled dragsters.
pokearound
Member
Marked. Great information people. 
G
Gr33nSanta
The best cannabis you will ever grow will be underfed, most growers want the most, not the best.
Marked. Great information people.
Douglas C and Weird are some of the most helpful people around.
The only ones who can say "fuck your airy crab grass.chemmy plant material I'm growing caked up resins with minimal plant fiber" in a non offensive manner.
Organic matter and organic nutes aren't the same.. Lots of people putting scraps in their dirt hoping the plant will eat it. Lots of plants soak up those scrap flavors. Kush types being the worst. Why no one can tell you what Kush smells like. Smells like your soil. Not mine or anyone else's. And if it's shit, grown for fiber, like hemp, instead of for quality resin composition, like medicinals, its going to provide the smoke of fibrous crops.
Bacteria only metabolizes for the most part the water insolubles. The water solubles don't need anything to be taken in.
The whole idea od hydro is it's dissolved. Not all raw parts of soil are dissolved, so that is where bacteria and fungi really help. They are decomposers. Micro organisms dissolve rock, as will water. Put these together with time, and we have workable till.
Just to put it simply.
The whole idea od hydro is it's dissolved. Not all raw parts of soil are dissolved, so that is where bacteria and fungi really help. They are decomposers. Micro organisms dissolve rock, as will water. Put these together with time, and we have workable till.
Just to put it simply.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Thank you. LOL (literally) After the day I had today, I greatly appreciate your comment.
May your cannabis adventure be awesome and full of trichomes. 
(You have my wife to thank for my diplomacy. It's been a hard road and she's glad it's working.)
