R
Relik
Hey jaykush, interesting post, quite long too! I'll be sure to read it a few more times, in a clearer state of mind. 
Cheers
Cheers
-
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Organic Fanatic Collective
- Thread starter Suby
- Start date
judas cohen
Active member
Jaykush: Thanks for the post! At last, some straight information. Puts things in perspective.
Suby: So sorry for your loss. One of my absent companions was "Angel". Sometimes I get so tired of outliving my Best Friends. Nothing really helps.
Suby: So sorry for your loss. One of my absent companions was "Angel". Sometimes I get so tired of outliving my Best Friends. Nothing really helps.
V
vonforne
What is the real difference between Compost and Humus?
This discussion has come up many times on this site on the Soil/Compost and Organic Gardening forums. When is organic matter "compost and when is it humus?
Here are some of the responses by some of our OG experts and friends on this site. The following are just a few resonses in a recent discussion:
BILL_G:
"Humus is the stable, long lasting remnant of decaying organic material. It improves soil structure and increases water retention. It's nutritive qualities include trace elements and several important organic acids but do not include nitrogen or phosphorus"
IANN:
"Mature compost is still organic matter and can be used when your planting instructions request it. Organic matter that hasn't decayed as far as compost shouldn't normally be used directly on plants because the nutrient balance and pH can get all out of whack as it decays (too much nitrogen in fresh manure, or nitrogen depletion as woodchips decompose) and because it may still contain toxic substances (fungal diseases, weed seeds, or toxic bacteria).
You are right, humus has no nutritive value. It's also impossible to get hold of since it can't be manufactured. It also can't be produced from decaying organic matter in a reasonably pure form on any sensible timescale. Lastly, we don't know exactly what humus is chemically so while you may find stuff sold as "humus" or "humates" or something similar, its buyer beware, you really have no guarantees about what is in the bag.
Humus is good because it has extremely high absorption abilities. It can hold and release water and nutrients as needed. It also improves the physical structure of soil so that it is crumbly and aerated instead of a nasty clay mess or an arid beach."
KELLY_CASSIDY:
"A lot of confusion is created by different uses of the words "organic" and "humus."
To a scientist, an organic molecule is a molecule that contains carbon. All life is based on carbon compounds, so living and dead cells are loosely refered to as organic material, even though they also contain inorganic molecules like water. Leaves, mushrooms, trees, live rats, dead rats, fish, etc. are "organic material." "Organic gardening" is a vague term that means many things to many people. The source of the term is probably that "organic gardeners" tend to avoid adding nutrients in their inorganic form.
To a soil scientist, "humus" is the organic, non-cellular, long-lasting component of soil. It is organic because it is composed of chemicals containing carbon. It is mostly extremely stable carbon compounds with no phosphorus or nitrogen. Their stable form makes them difficult to break down by microorganisms. If humic compounds had N or P, micro-oragnisms would try harder to attack them, but since they don't, they aren't worth the effort. Humus is non-cellular because everything else in the cell breaks down and gets recycled into other organisms, leaving the humus in the soil but no longer within a cell. The term "humus" gets tossed around loosely by gardeners to mean the organic material that makes soil brownish, not all of which is humus. In nature, humus accumulates in soil because it lasts for hundreds or thousands of years. (Trivia: In a typical northern deciduous forest, most of the organic material in the forest is in the soil NOT the living trees and most of the organic material in soil is humus. That's because humus hangs around for so long.) Humus often lasts in soil until a hot fire burns through the soil.
"Compost" is a matter of location and planning. Anything living starts decomposing when it dies. You call it compost when you put it in a pile and WATCH it decompose. "
LYCOPUS:
"Compost can contain humus at any stage. Humus does not occur alone in soil. I put the following together to the best of my ability to explain the distinction...corrections welcome
In the strictest sense humus is made up of humic substances composed of Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen. These include humic acids, fulvic acids, and humins. Some Nitrogen may be present but not in any significant quantity. Plants obtain those first three elements by means other than soil so "pure" humus has no significant nutritive value. Mature compost is not pure humus, it also contains carbohydrates, lipids, and amino acids, not to mention living organisms feeding on the remaining undecomposed or partially decomposed material (can't expect them to eat it all at once!). Many of these contain Nitrogen that is released gradually over time. Not all organic matter in compost will be at the same stage of decomposition at any given time.
Humus or even soil organic matter in general isn't perfect soil. There is no such thing as the perfect soil because needs of plants vary. Generally a good soil contains a combination of sand, silt, clay and organic matter. For the purposes of gardening, agriculture, and even some soil science humus is considered to be synonymous with soil organic matter. This is the non-mineral portion of soil. So when a gardener talks about adding humus to soil they mean leaf mold or compost. When scientists talk about humus they have big numbers and formulas in their heads."
deusexmachina:
"The definitional problem here is actually quite easy to resolve. It is the standard distinction between colloquial usage and scientific usage. Colloquially, if you add mature compost, or even immature compost, to soil, the resulting mix is humus. The same can be said of adding lemon juice to crushed sesame seeds, but that is a different story. When actually studying soil, however, it is important to make sure that everyone is on the same page with their definintions, and that those definitions offer enough destinctions with other terms to provide a useful purpose, or else why use them.
To this end, soil scientists break up the components of soil into categories. The portion that is the stable organic component is then refered to as humus, the portion that it is sand, clay, and related particles is silicates, the OM that is still decaying is, surprisingly, decaying organic matter. A simple way to look at this from the scientists perspective is to think of potting mix made from 1/3 peat, 1/3 compost, 1/3 sand or perlite. Peat is pretty much in its final state. It may have been that way for thousands of years, and may continue to be. Peat is humus. The compost, even if mature, is still breaking down and supplying nutrients. It is the decaying OM. The sand is the silicates.
Normal soil has these fractions mixed together to differing degrees, and to make up for local deficiencies in one or another based on the types of plants you are growing, you ammend your soil. The benefit of compost is thus two-fold. First, it has the immediate effect of adding nutrients and bacterial components that aid in soil conditioning. Second, as the seasons progress, it eventually converts to humus and increases your humus count. Thus compost, over several seasons, can often be used by itself for growing, but there are some exceptions. Cacti, for instance, will not appreciate a soil made exclusively from compost and its humic derivatives. Without significant silicates or their equivalent, they will die.
The distincion mentioned by Kelly between "organic" as used by science and "organic" as used by gardeners is another story, and a pet peeve of mine. The distinction stemmed from a long-ago disproven belief called vitalism that maintained that organic molecules, carbon compounded with other elements (just having carbon is NOT the sole criterion, else diamond would be considered organic and it is not, and so would CO2, which also isn't) HAD per se to be manufactured by living things, that organic molecules were somehow different from other chemicals by virtue of possessing a force vitae. This belief was utterly overthrown in 1828 when Friedrich Woehler published a brief paper describing the synthesis of the organic compound urea, formerly isolated from urine, from ammonium cyanate via: (NH4+)(-OHN) ---> O=C(NH2)2. This laid the ground work for the dismantling of the concept of vitalism in chemistry, but not in the popular mind, and the idea still permeates modern society and gardening lore. Chemisty then split into two branches, biochemistry, which studied the actual chemistry of life, and organic chemistry, which studied the properties and interactions of carbon compounds. When many people say "organic" they really mean "biologic". This sloppiness is important, as many highly toxic substances are "organic," and mistaken beliefs that organic compounds are safe, just because they are biological, is a natural by-product of clinging to vitalism.
So, all that being said, here is a quick primer:
Organic matter - stuff that came from biological sources (should be biological matter. Diamonds and graphite don't decompose!) This includes humus, mature compost, immature compost, freshly cut plants, live plants, etc.
Humus - (soil science) that portion of the soil that has fully broken down and is thus stable. This stability is important because it allows you to remove it from consideration in a lot of investigations, and this is why soil sciences define it this way. This, incidentally, is also why its constituents have not been subjected to rigorous scientific investigation. It is not that it is somehow mysterious or has magical properties that elude investigation, it is just that it is only recently that anyone has really bothered to think about applying modern analytical techniques to this fraction of the soil. Contrary to common belief, a large number of its constituents ARE known. Their relative proportions vary from implementation to implementation, however, and thus no simple answer is really forthcoming as to "what humus is," as it is a dynamic mix of substances. humus - (colloquially) The organic portion of the soil (you can see how this definition has use for the gardener, but is too impercise for much usefulness in an investigation of soil properties.)
Compost - organic matter in a purposeful state of partial decomposition. The purposeful part is important. Dead stuff on the ground is NOT compost, just decaying orgainc matter. It is the controlled, or semi-controlled conditions that make it compost.
Immature Compost - compost that has not undergone enough decomposition to be of maximal benefit. This definition is thus use-specific, but usually implies insufficient pathogen destruction, lack of friability, poor moisture retention, active generation of metabolic gasses. Primarily still in bacterial stage of decomposition.
Mature Compost - compost that has decomposed to the point of maximal usefulness. Usually in the fungal/actinomycete stage.
So all mature compost is organic matter, but not all organic matter is mature compost. If what you are after is soil conditinoing alone, then the terms humus and mature compost are all but interchangeable."
FIELD:
"One more important attribute of humus should be listed, in addition to improving soil structure (or texture) and water retention. Humus also has a high cation exchange capacity, which means it acts as a veritable storehouse for plant nutrients, something that can be especially important for those with sandy soils."
******************************************************
Happy Gardening!
This article came from Garden Web. One that I have been reading from lately. Hope this answers you Q.
Von
This discussion has come up many times on this site on the Soil/Compost and Organic Gardening forums. When is organic matter "compost and when is it humus?
Here are some of the responses by some of our OG experts and friends on this site. The following are just a few resonses in a recent discussion:
BILL_G:
"Humus is the stable, long lasting remnant of decaying organic material. It improves soil structure and increases water retention. It's nutritive qualities include trace elements and several important organic acids but do not include nitrogen or phosphorus"
IANN:
"Mature compost is still organic matter and can be used when your planting instructions request it. Organic matter that hasn't decayed as far as compost shouldn't normally be used directly on plants because the nutrient balance and pH can get all out of whack as it decays (too much nitrogen in fresh manure, or nitrogen depletion as woodchips decompose) and because it may still contain toxic substances (fungal diseases, weed seeds, or toxic bacteria).
You are right, humus has no nutritive value. It's also impossible to get hold of since it can't be manufactured. It also can't be produced from decaying organic matter in a reasonably pure form on any sensible timescale. Lastly, we don't know exactly what humus is chemically so while you may find stuff sold as "humus" or "humates" or something similar, its buyer beware, you really have no guarantees about what is in the bag.
Humus is good because it has extremely high absorption abilities. It can hold and release water and nutrients as needed. It also improves the physical structure of soil so that it is crumbly and aerated instead of a nasty clay mess or an arid beach."
KELLY_CASSIDY:
"A lot of confusion is created by different uses of the words "organic" and "humus."
To a scientist, an organic molecule is a molecule that contains carbon. All life is based on carbon compounds, so living and dead cells are loosely refered to as organic material, even though they also contain inorganic molecules like water. Leaves, mushrooms, trees, live rats, dead rats, fish, etc. are "organic material." "Organic gardening" is a vague term that means many things to many people. The source of the term is probably that "organic gardeners" tend to avoid adding nutrients in their inorganic form.
To a soil scientist, "humus" is the organic, non-cellular, long-lasting component of soil. It is organic because it is composed of chemicals containing carbon. It is mostly extremely stable carbon compounds with no phosphorus or nitrogen. Their stable form makes them difficult to break down by microorganisms. If humic compounds had N or P, micro-oragnisms would try harder to attack them, but since they don't, they aren't worth the effort. Humus is non-cellular because everything else in the cell breaks down and gets recycled into other organisms, leaving the humus in the soil but no longer within a cell. The term "humus" gets tossed around loosely by gardeners to mean the organic material that makes soil brownish, not all of which is humus. In nature, humus accumulates in soil because it lasts for hundreds or thousands of years. (Trivia: In a typical northern deciduous forest, most of the organic material in the forest is in the soil NOT the living trees and most of the organic material in soil is humus. That's because humus hangs around for so long.) Humus often lasts in soil until a hot fire burns through the soil.
"Compost" is a matter of location and planning. Anything living starts decomposing when it dies. You call it compost when you put it in a pile and WATCH it decompose. "
LYCOPUS:
"Compost can contain humus at any stage. Humus does not occur alone in soil. I put the following together to the best of my ability to explain the distinction...corrections welcome
In the strictest sense humus is made up of humic substances composed of Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen. These include humic acids, fulvic acids, and humins. Some Nitrogen may be present but not in any significant quantity. Plants obtain those first three elements by means other than soil so "pure" humus has no significant nutritive value. Mature compost is not pure humus, it also contains carbohydrates, lipids, and amino acids, not to mention living organisms feeding on the remaining undecomposed or partially decomposed material (can't expect them to eat it all at once!). Many of these contain Nitrogen that is released gradually over time. Not all organic matter in compost will be at the same stage of decomposition at any given time.
Humus or even soil organic matter in general isn't perfect soil. There is no such thing as the perfect soil because needs of plants vary. Generally a good soil contains a combination of sand, silt, clay and organic matter. For the purposes of gardening, agriculture, and even some soil science humus is considered to be synonymous with soil organic matter. This is the non-mineral portion of soil. So when a gardener talks about adding humus to soil they mean leaf mold or compost. When scientists talk about humus they have big numbers and formulas in their heads."
deusexmachina:
"The definitional problem here is actually quite easy to resolve. It is the standard distinction between colloquial usage and scientific usage. Colloquially, if you add mature compost, or even immature compost, to soil, the resulting mix is humus. The same can be said of adding lemon juice to crushed sesame seeds, but that is a different story. When actually studying soil, however, it is important to make sure that everyone is on the same page with their definintions, and that those definitions offer enough destinctions with other terms to provide a useful purpose, or else why use them.
To this end, soil scientists break up the components of soil into categories. The portion that is the stable organic component is then refered to as humus, the portion that it is sand, clay, and related particles is silicates, the OM that is still decaying is, surprisingly, decaying organic matter. A simple way to look at this from the scientists perspective is to think of potting mix made from 1/3 peat, 1/3 compost, 1/3 sand or perlite. Peat is pretty much in its final state. It may have been that way for thousands of years, and may continue to be. Peat is humus. The compost, even if mature, is still breaking down and supplying nutrients. It is the decaying OM. The sand is the silicates.
Normal soil has these fractions mixed together to differing degrees, and to make up for local deficiencies in one or another based on the types of plants you are growing, you ammend your soil. The benefit of compost is thus two-fold. First, it has the immediate effect of adding nutrients and bacterial components that aid in soil conditioning. Second, as the seasons progress, it eventually converts to humus and increases your humus count. Thus compost, over several seasons, can often be used by itself for growing, but there are some exceptions. Cacti, for instance, will not appreciate a soil made exclusively from compost and its humic derivatives. Without significant silicates or their equivalent, they will die.
The distincion mentioned by Kelly between "organic" as used by science and "organic" as used by gardeners is another story, and a pet peeve of mine. The distinction stemmed from a long-ago disproven belief called vitalism that maintained that organic molecules, carbon compounded with other elements (just having carbon is NOT the sole criterion, else diamond would be considered organic and it is not, and so would CO2, which also isn't) HAD per se to be manufactured by living things, that organic molecules were somehow different from other chemicals by virtue of possessing a force vitae. This belief was utterly overthrown in 1828 when Friedrich Woehler published a brief paper describing the synthesis of the organic compound urea, formerly isolated from urine, from ammonium cyanate via: (NH4+)(-OHN) ---> O=C(NH2)2. This laid the ground work for the dismantling of the concept of vitalism in chemistry, but not in the popular mind, and the idea still permeates modern society and gardening lore. Chemisty then split into two branches, biochemistry, which studied the actual chemistry of life, and organic chemistry, which studied the properties and interactions of carbon compounds. When many people say "organic" they really mean "biologic". This sloppiness is important, as many highly toxic substances are "organic," and mistaken beliefs that organic compounds are safe, just because they are biological, is a natural by-product of clinging to vitalism.
So, all that being said, here is a quick primer:
Organic matter - stuff that came from biological sources (should be biological matter. Diamonds and graphite don't decompose!) This includes humus, mature compost, immature compost, freshly cut plants, live plants, etc.
Humus - (soil science) that portion of the soil that has fully broken down and is thus stable. This stability is important because it allows you to remove it from consideration in a lot of investigations, and this is why soil sciences define it this way. This, incidentally, is also why its constituents have not been subjected to rigorous scientific investigation. It is not that it is somehow mysterious or has magical properties that elude investigation, it is just that it is only recently that anyone has really bothered to think about applying modern analytical techniques to this fraction of the soil. Contrary to common belief, a large number of its constituents ARE known. Their relative proportions vary from implementation to implementation, however, and thus no simple answer is really forthcoming as to "what humus is," as it is a dynamic mix of substances. humus - (colloquially) The organic portion of the soil (you can see how this definition has use for the gardener, but is too impercise for much usefulness in an investigation of soil properties.)
Compost - organic matter in a purposeful state of partial decomposition. The purposeful part is important. Dead stuff on the ground is NOT compost, just decaying orgainc matter. It is the controlled, or semi-controlled conditions that make it compost.
Immature Compost - compost that has not undergone enough decomposition to be of maximal benefit. This definition is thus use-specific, but usually implies insufficient pathogen destruction, lack of friability, poor moisture retention, active generation of metabolic gasses. Primarily still in bacterial stage of decomposition.
Mature Compost - compost that has decomposed to the point of maximal usefulness. Usually in the fungal/actinomycete stage.
So all mature compost is organic matter, but not all organic matter is mature compost. If what you are after is soil conditinoing alone, then the terms humus and mature compost are all but interchangeable."
FIELD:
"One more important attribute of humus should be listed, in addition to improving soil structure (or texture) and water retention. Humus also has a high cation exchange capacity, which means it acts as a veritable storehouse for plant nutrients, something that can be especially important for those with sandy soils."
******************************************************
Happy Gardening!
This article came from Garden Web. One that I have been reading from lately. Hope this answers you Q.
Von
Hey everyone. I've been a bit busy.
Suby sorry to hear about your dog. I used to have 4 myself, I haven't gotten another one since they passed on. Take care.
Jay your definitely the biggest contributor to this thread, and all your info is very interesting and useful. The knowledge I've gained from your posts will assist me in my vegetable gardens as much as they will in my indoor gardens. thanks.
I've run into some trouble with my grow. My older plants leaves have started turning yellow to early in their flowering cycle. I'm still getting my organic setup dialed in. I've gotten a little carried away making all these fermented infusions. I think I had best get my setup performing well and consistently before I give to much input on how well any amendment works.
Suby sorry to hear about your dog. I used to have 4 myself, I haven't gotten another one since they passed on. Take care.
Jay your definitely the biggest contributor to this thread, and all your info is very interesting and useful. The knowledge I've gained from your posts will assist me in my vegetable gardens as much as they will in my indoor gardens. thanks.
I've run into some trouble with my grow. My older plants leaves have started turning yellow to early in their flowering cycle. I'm still getting my organic setup dialed in. I've gotten a little carried away making all these fermented infusions. I think I had best get my setup performing well and consistently before I give to much input on how well any amendment works.
V
vonforne
jaykush said:
ya I have to get my ass back into it. I have been busy and now I'm kinda of cruising. i'm getting some things ready for the OFC and will post soon. I'm just a stoner so bear with me a little bit. i will eventually get it done.
V
vonforne
Since we were making our own nutes...heres some more.
How do you make homemade Fish/Seaweed Emulsion?
WHY FISH AND SEAWEED PRODUCTS?
As you may know fish emulsion, fish meal, seaweed/kelp meal, and liquid seaweed/kelp are some of the most powerful natural fertilizers and soil amendments in the world.
NOTE: For those organic gardeners who prefer vegetarian soil amendments, you can skip the fishy ingredients, it's not necessary. There is plenty of NPK in alfalfa meal and other grains that you can use.
Most commercial fish emulsions are rated NPK = 5-1-1.
Most commercial liquid seaweed sprays are rated NPK = 0-0-1.
Even though these NPK ratings to a novice may seem low, there are lots of important trace elements, growth hormones, disease control, and organic matter in these products.
Fish Emulsion is mainly used for its quick high organic nitrogen and available soluble P and K benefits as a foliar feed. Fish Meal is mainly a great soil conditioner and great bacterial food to help feed the soil microherd. Even though there may be 4-5% organic N, 1% soluble P, and 1% soluble K in fish emulsion, there may be up to 6-8% total N, and 2-3% total insoluble P or K in it, that gets broken down later by the soil microherd. Most commercial fish products are made from the trash products of the menhaden fish. This fish is a relative of the herring, sardine, and anchovy fishes. Most commercial fish emulsions contain up to 5% sulfuric acid in order to preserve the fertilizer on the shelf, but also it supplies needed sulfur to the plant and soil. Most economical fish products do not contain any fish oils in it, which supply extra beneficial soil fungi. Most also do not contain much fish bones which supply extra calcium.
Seaweed/Kelp has a low NPK = 0-0-1. However, just like the fish products and all other natural fertilizers, there are more insoluble NPK nutrients and other trace elements in the product than meets the eyes. There may be up to 1-3% total N, 1-2% total insoluble P, 3-5% total insoluble K in seaweed products. The real benefit of seaweed is not in its NPK amounts. Seaweed/kelp can contain 60 trace elements, many growth hormones, and disease control properties in it! Basically every nutrient that any surface plant can ever need! If seaweed products are mixed with high N products like fish, you have an excellent complete natural fertilizer and soil amendment that will supply every NPK and trace element need of the soil and plant. Seaweed and other algae plants are some of the most powerful plants on earth, or should I say in the ocean. Seaweed is also an excellent food source for beneficial fungi in the soil.
WHY MAKE IT HOMEMADE INSTEAD OF BUYING IT COMMERCIALLY?
A. It's cheaper to make most natural fertilizers and soil amendments in large quantities.
B. There are some nutrients that you get from homemade versions that are not in most commercial brands. For example, commercial fish emulsion since it is processed from trash fish, will have less fish oil, fish bones, and proteins than fresh fish parts or canned fish in a homemade brew.
C. Aerobic bacteria and fungi are essential to hot composting, disease control, and soil health. In commercial fish emulusions there no little to no aerobic bacteria in the containers. If there were any growing and living in the containers, the bottles would explode on the shelves! Homemade brews always will contain more beneficial microherd than most commercial brands.
HOW DO I MAKE A HOMEMADE BATCH OF FISH/SEAWEED EMULSION:
You can use the following suggestions to the other suggestions in the Organic Gardening forum FAQ's on Compost Tea recipes when you brew these fish/seaweed foliar sprays or soil drenches.
You can use fresh fish parts or any cheap canned fish. The juices, sauces, or oils in the can can be used to breed beneficial microbes and supply extra proteins in the tea, so use it.
(NOTE: If you use canned fish products, you may want to let it decompose mixed with some finished compost, good garden soil, etc. in a separate closeable container for a few days before using. Since most canned meat products contain preservatives, this will guarantee that the good microbes in the tea will not be killed off or harmed in brew making.)
You can use any fresh or dried seaweed. Fresh seaweed has more N in it, but that really isn't important for seaweed teas. You can buy fresh or dried seaweed at most oriental grocery stores. Seaweed decomposes better if chopped up or liquified first in water before brewing.
If you are using fresh fish, you need to compost it separately in a 5 gallon closeable bucket. Fill bucket 1/2 full with extra browns like sawdust, leaves, or straw. You can add molasses to the fishy mixture in order to build up microbes in order to speed up decomposition. The sugars will also help control odors too. Open the bucket and stir the fishy paste daily or every other day in order to get air in the mix for better decomposition and better aerobic microbial growth in the emulsion. Let this paste rot for at least 1-2 weeks. The browns help control offensive odors and absorb organic nitrogen from the fish so that it is not leached out or evaporated.
Since commercial fish emulsions contain sulfur in the form of sulfuric acid, if you like you could add 1-2 tblsp of Epsom salt to the mix for extra magnesium and sulfur. Or to mimic the acidity of sulfuric acid and add extra trace elements you could add 1-2 tblsp of apple cider vinegar to the mix. NOTE: Recent studies have shown that unsulfured molasses or dry molasses powder is best for faster microbial growth in tea brewing.
You can now safely take the decomposed fish paste from the 5 gallon bucket and add it to your regular hot composting piles or add it to your special compost tea recipes. The more vegetable or fruity organic matter that you add to fishy compost the better you remove the offensive smells and the more trace elements you add to your compost and teas. This of course is optional.
You can add molasses or brown sugar to your teas also. Sugars are high carbon substances that not only can cause speedy microbial growth, but also sugars are an excellent natural deodorizer.
At this point you may want to decide whether you want to make a simple tea or an aerobic aerated tea for your needs.
When you make fishy tea, you need to add the seaweed at brewing time. Let it brew for at least 1 week, stirring every few days. If you decide to brew it aerobically with an air pump, try up to 3 days, or until the brew has a "yeasty" smell, or has a foamy top layer on the tea.
You can apply this fish/seaweed emulsion at a dilution rate from 1:1 to 1:5 ratio (5 gallons of tea to 25 gallons of water).
If you like, you can add a few drops of mild liquid soap per gallon as a wetting agent to get better coverage as a foliar feed at application time. (NOTE: If you are concerrned that using soaps may harm the beneficial microbes in your teas, you may want to just use liquid molasses, dry molasses powder, fish oil, or yucca extract as a spreader-sticker.)
You can use this tea as a foliar feed or as a soil drench or both. Soil drenches are best for building up the soil microbial activities and supplying lots of beneficial soluble NPK to the plant's root system and the topsoil texture. Foliar feeds are best for quick fixes of trace elements and small portions of other soluble nutrients into the plant through its leaves. Foliar feeds are also good for plant disease control. Foliar feeds work best when used with soil drenches or with lots of organic mulches around plants. You can poke holes in the soil around crop roots with your spade fork, to get more oxygen in the soil to further increase organic matter decomposition and increase microbial activity in the soil.
Remember all your homemade fertilizers and soil amendments can be as diverse and unique as you are. So have fun and keep composting!
Happy Gardening!
How do you make homemade Fish/Seaweed Emulsion?
WHY FISH AND SEAWEED PRODUCTS?
As you may know fish emulsion, fish meal, seaweed/kelp meal, and liquid seaweed/kelp are some of the most powerful natural fertilizers and soil amendments in the world.
NOTE: For those organic gardeners who prefer vegetarian soil amendments, you can skip the fishy ingredients, it's not necessary. There is plenty of NPK in alfalfa meal and other grains that you can use.
Most commercial fish emulsions are rated NPK = 5-1-1.
Most commercial liquid seaweed sprays are rated NPK = 0-0-1.
Even though these NPK ratings to a novice may seem low, there are lots of important trace elements, growth hormones, disease control, and organic matter in these products.
Fish Emulsion is mainly used for its quick high organic nitrogen and available soluble P and K benefits as a foliar feed. Fish Meal is mainly a great soil conditioner and great bacterial food to help feed the soil microherd. Even though there may be 4-5% organic N, 1% soluble P, and 1% soluble K in fish emulsion, there may be up to 6-8% total N, and 2-3% total insoluble P or K in it, that gets broken down later by the soil microherd. Most commercial fish products are made from the trash products of the menhaden fish. This fish is a relative of the herring, sardine, and anchovy fishes. Most commercial fish emulsions contain up to 5% sulfuric acid in order to preserve the fertilizer on the shelf, but also it supplies needed sulfur to the plant and soil. Most economical fish products do not contain any fish oils in it, which supply extra beneficial soil fungi. Most also do not contain much fish bones which supply extra calcium.
Seaweed/Kelp has a low NPK = 0-0-1. However, just like the fish products and all other natural fertilizers, there are more insoluble NPK nutrients and other trace elements in the product than meets the eyes. There may be up to 1-3% total N, 1-2% total insoluble P, 3-5% total insoluble K in seaweed products. The real benefit of seaweed is not in its NPK amounts. Seaweed/kelp can contain 60 trace elements, many growth hormones, and disease control properties in it! Basically every nutrient that any surface plant can ever need! If seaweed products are mixed with high N products like fish, you have an excellent complete natural fertilizer and soil amendment that will supply every NPK and trace element need of the soil and plant. Seaweed and other algae plants are some of the most powerful plants on earth, or should I say in the ocean. Seaweed is also an excellent food source for beneficial fungi in the soil.
WHY MAKE IT HOMEMADE INSTEAD OF BUYING IT COMMERCIALLY?
A. It's cheaper to make most natural fertilizers and soil amendments in large quantities.
B. There are some nutrients that you get from homemade versions that are not in most commercial brands. For example, commercial fish emulsion since it is processed from trash fish, will have less fish oil, fish bones, and proteins than fresh fish parts or canned fish in a homemade brew.
C. Aerobic bacteria and fungi are essential to hot composting, disease control, and soil health. In commercial fish emulusions there no little to no aerobic bacteria in the containers. If there were any growing and living in the containers, the bottles would explode on the shelves! Homemade brews always will contain more beneficial microherd than most commercial brands.
HOW DO I MAKE A HOMEMADE BATCH OF FISH/SEAWEED EMULSION:
You can use the following suggestions to the other suggestions in the Organic Gardening forum FAQ's on Compost Tea recipes when you brew these fish/seaweed foliar sprays or soil drenches.
You can use fresh fish parts or any cheap canned fish. The juices, sauces, or oils in the can can be used to breed beneficial microbes and supply extra proteins in the tea, so use it.
(NOTE: If you use canned fish products, you may want to let it decompose mixed with some finished compost, good garden soil, etc. in a separate closeable container for a few days before using. Since most canned meat products contain preservatives, this will guarantee that the good microbes in the tea will not be killed off or harmed in brew making.)
You can use any fresh or dried seaweed. Fresh seaweed has more N in it, but that really isn't important for seaweed teas. You can buy fresh or dried seaweed at most oriental grocery stores. Seaweed decomposes better if chopped up or liquified first in water before brewing.
If you are using fresh fish, you need to compost it separately in a 5 gallon closeable bucket. Fill bucket 1/2 full with extra browns like sawdust, leaves, or straw. You can add molasses to the fishy mixture in order to build up microbes in order to speed up decomposition. The sugars will also help control odors too. Open the bucket and stir the fishy paste daily or every other day in order to get air in the mix for better decomposition and better aerobic microbial growth in the emulsion. Let this paste rot for at least 1-2 weeks. The browns help control offensive odors and absorb organic nitrogen from the fish so that it is not leached out or evaporated.
Since commercial fish emulsions contain sulfur in the form of sulfuric acid, if you like you could add 1-2 tblsp of Epsom salt to the mix for extra magnesium and sulfur. Or to mimic the acidity of sulfuric acid and add extra trace elements you could add 1-2 tblsp of apple cider vinegar to the mix. NOTE: Recent studies have shown that unsulfured molasses or dry molasses powder is best for faster microbial growth in tea brewing.
You can now safely take the decomposed fish paste from the 5 gallon bucket and add it to your regular hot composting piles or add it to your special compost tea recipes. The more vegetable or fruity organic matter that you add to fishy compost the better you remove the offensive smells and the more trace elements you add to your compost and teas. This of course is optional.
You can add molasses or brown sugar to your teas also. Sugars are high carbon substances that not only can cause speedy microbial growth, but also sugars are an excellent natural deodorizer.
At this point you may want to decide whether you want to make a simple tea or an aerobic aerated tea for your needs.
When you make fishy tea, you need to add the seaweed at brewing time. Let it brew for at least 1 week, stirring every few days. If you decide to brew it aerobically with an air pump, try up to 3 days, or until the brew has a "yeasty" smell, or has a foamy top layer on the tea.
You can apply this fish/seaweed emulsion at a dilution rate from 1:1 to 1:5 ratio (5 gallons of tea to 25 gallons of water).
If you like, you can add a few drops of mild liquid soap per gallon as a wetting agent to get better coverage as a foliar feed at application time. (NOTE: If you are concerrned that using soaps may harm the beneficial microbes in your teas, you may want to just use liquid molasses, dry molasses powder, fish oil, or yucca extract as a spreader-sticker.)
You can use this tea as a foliar feed or as a soil drench or both. Soil drenches are best for building up the soil microbial activities and supplying lots of beneficial soluble NPK to the plant's root system and the topsoil texture. Foliar feeds are best for quick fixes of trace elements and small portions of other soluble nutrients into the plant through its leaves. Foliar feeds are also good for plant disease control. Foliar feeds work best when used with soil drenches or with lots of organic mulches around plants. You can poke holes in the soil around crop roots with your spade fork, to get more oxygen in the soil to further increase organic matter decomposition and increase microbial activity in the soil.
Remember all your homemade fertilizers and soil amendments can be as diverse and unique as you are. So have fun and keep composting!
Happy Gardening!
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G'day fellas
G'day fellas
Shit, I thought I was bad, always copping flack from the Mrs, for all the piles of different composts I have lying around the place..... but you guys make me look tame. LOL
Every one has got green thumbs on this site but now I found the ppl with dirty black hands. Seriously though why isn't this thread a sticky?
I love my organics .....especially when it's certified.
Very good info posted here I must say.......
Any of you fellas looked into biodynamics?
G'day fellas
Shit, I thought I was bad, always copping flack from the Mrs, for all the piles of different composts I have lying around the place..... but you guys make me look tame. LOL
Every one has got green thumbs on this site but now I found the ppl with dirty black hands. Seriously though why isn't this thread a sticky?
I love my organics .....especially when it's certified.
Very good info posted here I must say.......
Any of you fellas looked into biodynamics?
Jubal
Member
This will be a sticky soon, how could it not?
So I blew through 13 pages, and realized that organics is far more comprehensive than I could imagine--therefore far more extensive, which I geuss is why you can't breeze through an organic growfaq. In several weeks I'll have some herb to burn and I'll fullly digest all the info I can on this stuff. I have a couple dinky questions for to field:
I'm not able to go organic anytime soon, and I'm not as rabid for perfection and symbiosis with the cannabis plant (well, not yet). In the future, I'd like it if I had a great relatively easy yet full spectrum medium which I never had to liquid feed, except to boost flowering. Is that possible?
Also, and you'll like this one, from the budshots I've seen, organic bud looks way different than chem or hydro. At first, I thought BOG was one in a billion, but I've seen that similar clean crystally appearance on most other budshots since. Unbiased comments? (lol yeah right!)
oh, and is superthrive 'organic'? what does it do to a plant in flower?
Ya'll are the future of cultivation! Thanks for sharing all this great knowlege!
Thanks in advance for any answers...peace
So I blew through 13 pages, and realized that organics is far more comprehensive than I could imagine--therefore far more extensive, which I geuss is why you can't breeze through an organic growfaq. In several weeks I'll have some herb to burn and I'll fullly digest all the info I can on this stuff. I have a couple dinky questions for to field:
I'm not able to go organic anytime soon, and I'm not as rabid for perfection and symbiosis with the cannabis plant (well, not yet). In the future, I'd like it if I had a great relatively easy yet full spectrum medium which I never had to liquid feed, except to boost flowering. Is that possible?
Also, and you'll like this one, from the budshots I've seen, organic bud looks way different than chem or hydro. At first, I thought BOG was one in a billion, but I've seen that similar clean crystally appearance on most other budshots since. Unbiased comments? (lol yeah right!)
oh, and is superthrive 'organic'? what does it do to a plant in flower?
Ya'll are the future of cultivation! Thanks for sharing all this great knowlege!
Thanks in advance for any answers...peace
Hello all,
Jubal, Superthrive is with out a doubt not organic- its totally synthetic. But it works for me.
As to whats in it- well, that is a closely held secret-the general consenus (lol, if ever there is such a thing on IC or OG...)is that it is a combination of vitamins and synthectic growth hormones.
Have a look at the label- lots of fantastic claims yet no info on the ingredients.
minds_I
Jubal, Superthrive is with out a doubt not organic- its totally synthetic. But it works for me.
As to whats in it- well, that is a closely held secret-the general consenus (lol, if ever there is such a thing on IC or OG...)is that it is a combination of vitamins and synthectic growth hormones.
Have a look at the label- lots of fantastic claims yet no info on the ingredients.
minds_I
Jubal
Member
rrrrrrreeaaalllllyyyy....yeah developed by the gov, right? I'm reading some stuff on it right now...mmm hormones...
The first few times I grew indoors were aborted, once because of a seven foot tall 6 week old that was in flower for two weeks...much later i deduced I used too much of that stuff!! I'm on my third attempt now (much better) and all i got is NPK and that freaky deaky superthrive with its B1 and hormones. I may or may not dose my plants late.
ciao
The first few times I grew indoors were aborted, once because of a seven foot tall 6 week old that was in flower for two weeks...much later i deduced I used too much of that stuff!! I'm on my third attempt now (much better) and all i got is NPK and that freaky deaky superthrive with its B1 and hormones. I may or may not dose my plants late.
ciao
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R
Relik
Speaking of dirty black hands, I took a walk in the forest a couple days ago, and came across an old knocked down tree, which had black natural compost in the inside... about 3 cubic meters of it! Needless to say I got my hands all black while taking a bag of this stuff (of which I immediately threw a handful in the tea when I got home). I'll have to go back to that spot with tons of bags, it smells so good I'd almost want to jump inside it. Well, almost 
wow you guys are seriously going all natural huh... lol anyways i read the foliar feeding could be up to 8-20 times more effective in taking in nutrients than the roots. I was planning on only foliar feeding with kelp, and i only have the powdered kind...
is it possible if i could make a tea out of the powdered kelp and foliar spray under the leaves when temps are coldest (stomatas (sp?) are opened up bigger)?
It was recommended to foliar spray with plant supplements and not the whole shabang. So i wanna do just that...kelp! Dont see why not spray under the leaves...
and ps.
about foliar spraying... it only be done in veg cuz in flower it might cause bud rot if it gets on the buds correct?
is it possible if i could make a tea out of the powdered kelp and foliar spray under the leaves when temps are coldest (stomatas (sp?) are opened up bigger)?
It was recommended to foliar spray with plant supplements and not the whole shabang. So i wanna do just that...kelp! Dont see why not spray under the leaves...
and ps.
about foliar spraying... it only be done in veg cuz in flower it might cause bud rot if it gets on the buds correct?
V
vonforne
Hello new deal, welcome to OFC. About the powdered kelp....yes you can use your powdered form. Just mix it at recommended strength and dilute to 1/4 strength. remember that you have to be very careful with foliar feeding as it could burm your plants quickly. Alot faster than burning them from the root bed. here is something that I do when I foliar feed. I have one of those "pump" sprayers from Home Depot. On one feeding I will use maxicrop liquid Seaweed at 1/4 recommended usage. I will spray the plants down, at lights on with the seaweed solution. I will them come back a few hours later and spray them down with fresh clean water. At this point they have already absorbed the nutes from the first foliar feeding. the next time I foliar feed (twice a week in veg.) i will use Liquid Karma and follow the same lines as before. you can use all the nutes you want for foliar application but just be careful and use cation not to burn the plants when you do.
As for foliar feeding in flower, I never go beyond the first week of flowering.
Hope this helps.....Von
As for foliar feeding in flower, I never go beyond the first week of flowering.
Hope this helps.....Von
V
vonforne
Smurf said:Shit, I thought I was bad, always copping flack from the Mrs, for all the piles of different composts I have lying around the place..... but you guys make me look tame. LOL
Every one has got green thumbs on this site but now I found the ppl with dirty black hands. Seriously though why isn't this thread a sticky?
I love my organics .....especially when it's certified.
Very good info posted here I must say.......
Any of you fellas looked into biodynamics?
There were no stickys in our forum so we voted Suby "our MOD' and he started this. We all gather here and post our information for everyone to read. then ask questions and discuss.
"I love my organics .....especially when it's certified."
Yes we all love organics, that is why we are here. We are a very dedicated group. Who else would work that hard to smoke some clean herb? NO chems here my friend!
Von
Hey guys, nice to see you guys carrying things on in here while I wallow about feeling sorry for myself...
Well things are getting better and there is tons od cool stuff to read.
You could use plain Liquid Karma as an awesome foliar feed product, use at lower stengths until you gauge your plants' reaction.
It contains plenty of kelp and other goodies that do well in a foliar feed.
Suby
Well things are getting better and there is tons od cool stuff to read.
You could use plain Liquid Karma as an awesome foliar feed product, use at lower stengths until you gauge your plants' reaction.
It contains plenty of kelp and other goodies that do well in a foliar feed.
Suby
