Off the shelf retail store screw-in LED and CFL bulb comparisons

[Hookahhead]

I have never grown with a 150 HPS, but I have used 250, 400, 1000 over the years. Have you ever used LED or SIL? Can you unscrew a 150w HPS or MH after it a been running for 12 hours? I’ve done it several times with the SIL, they’re hot but I can handle them with a bit of care.

So most of us are using cool white (5000-6500k), warm (2700-3000k) or neutral (4000-4300k). White LEDs are just blue diodes with a coating to shift spread the spectrum, effectively creating “white” light. Remember the lumen/watt I quoted is with the globes on, more likely they’re 130-150 with the globe off. This has been shown by people with the proper equipment. The spread of the light means you can get them closer to the plants (inverse square rule), and gives you a greater ppfd, which is the real metric we should be using.

Which of these looks narrower?

Again the 200lm/w are for LED light bars. These are a little different because you choose the drivers, and would essentially be powering multiple “bulbs” from more efficient drivers. With the SIL each one has its own driver, and efficiency is sacrificed for cost, safety, and ease of use. I can almost guarantee SIL are throttled back a bit since they’re meant to be used in a domestic setting, and who knows what the idiot end users will do with them (like rigging up a bunch to grow cannabis).

I imagine that you’re basing you’re opinions off your gut feeling. Don’t worry you’re not the first person to stop in here with these opinions. Again, I encourage you to look through this thread. Search for the users Terpene and Blynx. The fact that you listed floro above SIL tells me that you haven’t seen the evidence provided by numerous people.

 

[indagroove]

I have never grown with a 150 HPS, but I have used 250, 400, 1000 over the years. Have you ever used LED or SIL? Can you unscrew a 150w HPS or MH after it a been running for 12 hours? I’ve done it several times with the SIL, they’re hot but I can handle them with a bit of care.

So most of us are using cool white (5000-6500k), warm (2700-3000k) or neutral (4000-4300k). White LEDs are just blue diodes with a coating to shift spread the spectrum, effectively creating “white” light.

View Image

Again the 200lm/w are for LED light bars. These are a little different because you choose the drivers, and would essentially be powering multiple “bulbs” from more efficient drivers. With the SIL each one has its own driver, and efficiency is sacrificed for cost, safety, and ease of use. I can almost guarantee SIL are throttled back a bit since they’re meant to be used in a domestic setting, and who knows what the idiot end users will do with them (like rigging up a bunch to grow cannabis).

I imagine that you’re basing you’re opinions off your gut feeling. Don’t worry you’re not the first person to stop in here with these opinions. Again, I encourage you to look through this thread. Search for the users Terpene and Blynx. The fact that you listed floro above SIL tells me that you haven’t seen the evidence provided by numerous people.

Yes, in fact I have used LED lighting before. I've used over the counter LED's just like the title of this thread suggests, and have found that plants respond to fluorescent lighting better, when considering the cheap stuff on the market. I've also grown with a couple of different inexpensive LED grow lights, and find them substandard for flowering; they are ok for veg. I haven't purchased a high quality $1000 LED light, so those might be better, but at quite a cost.

I'm not sure what that chart is supposed to mean, as it's very generic, and does not reference a specific product. Not all "white LEDs" are the same, so that alone shows me that the info is lackluster at best.

 

[PCBuds]

they’re meant to be used in a domestic setting, and who knows what the idiot end users will do with them...

No Shit !!

I made a coffee with mine ! Lol

 

[StillOvergrowin]

2" square 'samples' are quite common on ebay. I wouldn't try cutting such a thin and brittle material myself, but maybe a fine toothed hole saw could do it. In greater thicknesses, it's used to line riot vans as bullet protection. I have no confidence in it myself, but what are cd's made of? I bet it's the same stuff. They don't break easily.

I havn't ignored your contactor pics request. I looked about, and it seems we need a separate thread on the subject. So my intent is to get some pics together, when I'm not close to joining my pillow

Thinking about it a bit more...I like the idea of the petri dishes. I'm not sure if UV is an issue with LEDs, but the petris should be pretty resistant to cracking once in place. They're optically clear as far as I know.


I was also thinking you could use the bottom of a clear plastic cup or a plastic water bottle. Cut it so you leave about a 1 inch/25cm lip on it and then use a few dots of silicone to attach it to the cut down globe.
Doesn't even have to be a perfect fit. Any gaps would just be passive heat vents.


I'll put up some potato pix later.

 

[f-e]

latest are 1521lm 12w. That means, they produce 1521lm using 12w. It doesn't mean the leds inside the lamp produce 1521, it means the lamp does when you use it. We don't though. First we mod them, by removing a cover that only transmits around 70% of the light the components inside produce. Thus the 1521lm lamp now produces about 2100lm from the 12w it consumes. This 12w includes the ballasts consumption. The most efficient of which are 90-94% so actually we get about 2100lm from 11w of leds. Do the math.

The 200lm strips, did that at a lower test current than maximum, and at a very controlled temperature.

Essentially, the format doesn't matter. The latest led products, are just that.


I have switched from a 150 to leds. I have pictures of each uploaded. The 150 is by my door, waiting to go to the tip, along with my 70 and my 250 will be gifted to a friend. As have a few 600s been, and a few 4s to follow.

Sodiums are literally orange. Led's produce a much better balance of colours, so look white.

A sodium lamp mounted horizontally in an anodised and chemically polished shade poses further losses. You are meant to change that reflector regularly. Though few suppliers even offer the spares, unless it's truly pro kit. To be loosing 20% is not unusual. 30% is within reason if your slacking. Even a new miro reflector is going to loose you 10% so this 15,000lm is never really happening.

I replaced the 150 with 200w of 80lm/w garden floods, worth very little. I was just curious, but was upgrading again just 8 weeks later. They had won me over. Next came 4 140lm cobs, running 280w max, but dimmed down. They beat the 150 using about 100, and I mean really beat it. I sometimes enlarge the space with 14w 1521 lamps, and can see they are just as good.

The 150 is a bit of a dud. Something I had to use for many years, that I'm glad to see the back of now.

 

[Hookahhead]

While you may perceive less heat with LED, that's only because the heat is spread across multiple units instead of being emitted from a single source.

This is one of the great advantages of LED over HID. The fact that the heat is spread out makes it dissipate easier. Think about a HID, the center is so hot it’s glowing. Let’s say at the glass it’s 120F, dissipating to 75F at canopy level. A few inches from the bulb it’s still going to be 90F since the warmer air closer to the bulb is less effective at cooling. With LED, the diode emits photons not a filament. Let’s say the diode is the same 120F, a few inches away the heat is barely perceivable. This is because the tiny, heat-sinked diode is designed to dissipate heat.

Although the charts are generic, so is the one for HPS. It’s good enough for a general rule. If you would like a better comparison, find graphs that support your opinion and post them. LED lack light in the IR spectrum (Not shown on the charts), and therefore do not produce as much infrared heat. Many growers professional, hobby, whatever... on here, other boards, IG will tell you rooms running LED need to be run warmer because you don’t have that IR heating the leaf surface. In my case, this means I can run without AC, drastically reducing my energy cost (which we didn’t consider before).

Look at the picture, I have had plants grow directly into the bulbs. The leaf against the actual diode will get burnt, but the rest remains healthy. From personal experience, a HPS will fry the whole top.

 

[StillOvergrowin]

I only did one grow with the floods and it was acceptable. It was a pure Sativa and it was a bit leggy and actually grew past my lights, exceeding 4’. Hard to say if the stature was strain related or from light deprivation. I seldom weigh my goods any more but I did reap one and a half quarts of premo buds, being very selective.

I’ve done one grow from start to finish with 7) 10.5w SIL’s. The growth was phenomenal, especially in the early stages. Production under the SIL’s was better but the strains were worlds apart so it would be improper to say one light is better than the other. I think a single flood is definitely a frugal choice for a single plant with moderate expectations.

As a disclaimer, my recent experimentations have been an attempt to find minimalistic parameters of success by first establishing the points of failure. There’s no segment of my gardening that couldn’t be improved upon. I use coco/perlite medium and never flush. I use unfiltered well water and have no idea of the ph. I use a single nutrient at full strength from start to finish. I use a 12/12 light schedule from seed. My temps stay typically in the 80’s and humidity levels generally above 70%. I often go 2-3 weeks without even looking in on the garden.

Reasoning behind this abuse?!? Start up costs for cannabis gardening can be staggering. I’m sure there are individuals on the sidelines that are intimidated by cost factors as well as attention to detail our more advanced growers are adhering to. I’m hoping to eventually organize my experiences and present a grow diary for those with limited budgets and expertise.

As far as my present grow, again it is a pure Sativa that has been under the 7 SIL’s for 6 weeks using a 12/12 light schedule from seed. My grow box is a surplus military locker from an era past. The interior dimensions are slightly less than 2X4X6. At 6 weeks I did some moderate pruning and lashed the plant to a grid panel attached to the back of the locker. I built 3 portable frames to which I attached 7) 4’ 18w tubes to each. These are hanging directly in front of the plant. One of the pix that I posted did show the light panel hanging to the side but I just placed it there temporarily for the photo of the plant. It’s set up to where I can vary the distance between the light and the plant. At present I have a single plant and am using 10 bulbs. The array is covering an area measuring 2’X4’.

Thanks for the update. Any idea on the cost and lumens of the floodlight? Did you have to wire in your own cord?


I wholeheartedly agree with you on removing barriers for someone that's starting on a small budget.

With the LEDs and micro grow, I think it's very easy to get started for $100 or less. That's amazing compared to the usual $500 it would take to set up a 400w hps grow.



It's kind of nice slowing down a little and doing a KISS style grow.

Buy some nice soil, maybe add a few amendments and water mostly with just plain water.
No reservoir or pH checking or nute levels and TDS meters etc.



Much more relaxing and enjoyable this way.


So what did you do with the 20 LED tubes?
Is it a 4ft wide by 2ft deep and a vertical arrangement?

 

[PCBuds]

I've decided to replace my dinosaur.
The 4' flouro.

I'm thinking of simply unplugging it and removing the bulbs.

Then I want to glue two 4' LED strips right to the metal flouro housing, using it as a heat sink and reflector.

The two fluorescent grow bulbs in there now are $10 each and the two daylight bulbs are $10 a pair and I'm willing to spend some money on an LED strip replacement.

I'm having a hard time sourcing the parts.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[StillOvergrowin]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=80752&pictureid=1985154View Image

I opted for these. Great for the price but it does eat up significant headroom. I like the versatility of your find in that respect.

I had thought about those, but I'm usually against things that are 'splitters' or adapters. And that price seems too low to me. But I admit I have my idiosyncrasies.



For whatever reason, I like the idea of each bulb having its own socket.


Everyone in their own happy home.



I'd like to wire up my own 3 or 4 light fixture, but I'm not sure which type of sockets I want to use...ceramic, fiberglass etc.


I'm old fashioned and like my light from above. It'll be interesting to see how some of the verticle lighting compares.


It seems like some folks are getting shockingly good overhead light penetration- I've seen buds here that looked close to 15 inches or so. I doubt you could do that with just overhead CFLs.

 

[StillOvergrowin]

If you could just spend $65 at home depot and get 16,000 lumens. Not LED, but will do better than anything else you can buy over the counter..
View Image

Holy 1999!! That's where a lot of the micro grows probably started back in the day.



But that's a sealed outdoor fixture. It looks like it would generate a lot of heat inside a small cabinet. And how do you hang it?



Don't get me wrong- I love me some HPS. But they do put out an intense heat spot.



And besides, I'm mostly interested in using it for vegging and starting seeds, and I started down this rabbit hole trying to avoid $35 CFL bulbs...

But some here are getting astounding results with flowering, so it looks like there's a lot of potential here.

 

[indagroove]

This is one of the great advantages of LED over HID. The fact that the heat is spread out makes it dissipate easier. Think about a HID, the center is so hot it’s glowing. Let’s say at the glass it’s 120F, dissipating to 75F at canopy level. A few inches from the bulb it’s still going to be 90F since the warmer air closer to the bulb is less effective at cooling. With LED, the diode emits photons not a filament. Let’s say the diode is the same 120F, a few inches away the heat is barely perceivable. This is because the tiny, heat-sinked diode is designed to dissipate heat.

Although the charts are generic, so is the one for HPS. It’s good enough for a general rule. If you would like a better comparison, find graphs that support your opinion and post them. LED lack light in the IR spectrum (Not shown on the charts), and therefore do not produce as much infrared heat. Many growers professional, hobby, whatever... on here, other boards, IG will tell you rooms running LED need to be run warmer because you don’t have that IR heating the leaf surface. In my case, this means I can run without AC, drastically reducing my energy cost (which we didn’t consider before).

Look at the picture, I have had plants grow directly into the bulbs. The leaf against the actual diode will get burnt, but the rest remains healthy. From personal experience, a HPS will fry the whole top.

Guy, a HPS lamp doesn't even have a filament, it has an arc tube. You are confusing incandescent lamps with HID lamps, just like before you thought that Halogen and HID were the same thing, but they are two very different animals.

I get it, you want to love LED (I do too), but you are using confirmation bias to solidify your position. A few posts back you said you never have used a 150w HPS, but somehow you think you know how hot it's gonna be. Just blow a fan at the fixture, and the heat will dissipate.

Have fun with those over the counter LEDs, but you haven't convinced me that they are close to on par with over the counter HID security lights for a micro grow.

 

[indagroove]

But that's a sealed outdoor fixture. It looks like it would generate a lot of heat inside a small cabinet. And how do you hang it?

It looks like it would generate a lot of heat? So, you're not sure, but from the looks of it, that big old 150w lamp will heat up the space too much? I need more evidence than "from the looks of it".

How do you hang it? There are many ways, it's not tricky really.

If you are concerned with excess heat, that tells me that you don't have adequate airflow. Physics tells me that the heat will be the same with a 100 lumen/watt LED and a 100 lumen/watt HPS, assuming that the same wattage is used in both scenarios.

 

[PCBuds]

Have fun with those over the counter LEDs, but you haven't convinced me that they are close to on par with over the counter HID security lights for a micro grow.

Fine then.
Go find an HID thread where you're welcome.

I'm tired of your posts.

You're not going to convince us.

I'm not installing an HID.

 

[StillOvergrowin]

I cheated anyway by using distilled water and it's an insulator.

So I refilled the jar with tap water and tried again.

That lasted about a minute.
It was bubbling and making popping noises then it went to half brightness.

https://postimg.cc/bGmhwc8FView Image

Then with one last sizzle, it finally died.

It still looks OK though.

https://postimg.cc/G98Cd5fqView Image

Maybe I'll put some voltage to the individual LED segments and see if they still work.

Way cool.

My 1st thought 2was that you had used distilled water...
It's still useful to see the bulb run in an adverse condition until the point of failure.


Did it trip a power strip or a circuit breaker? or did it just die quietly?

 

[StillOvergrowin]

You called a HPS lamp a Halogen. That's not comparing apples to oranges actually; it's more akin to calling an apple an orange.

Please link me to an "off the shelf" LED bulb which emits 200 lumens/watt. Everything I see is about half that.

Maybe I assumed incorrectly, but I guess I thought this thread was about how to grow the best and most amount of weed with a cheap light that you can buy at the store for minimal cost. The answer to that is what I posted earlier.

Sure you can string LED bulbs all over, byt there is more to the cost than just the bulbs. You need multiple fixtures, wire, and ways to mount them. You won't get the canopy penetration with cheap led bulbs that you would with a cheap 150w HPS security lamp. The most important aspect is that you will get a very narrow light spectrum from over the counter LED's compared to what I posted earlier.

Sorry, and I'm not trying to poo poo your whole thread, but I think you're also kind of chasing the dragon. In terms of of stuff you can buy at the hardware store down the street for cheap, a HPS security light will produce the largest amount of the best quality weed, followed by a MH security light, next would be cfl, T5, or some other flouros, and last would be screw in LED bulbs. Even though technically LED are more efficient, plants like flouros better due to their broad spectrum.

F5
F5
F5


Your pictures aren't loading...did you get the links right??

 

[Hookahhead]

Guy, a HPS lamp doesn't even have a filament, it has an arc tube. You are confusing incandescent lamps with HID lamps, just like before you thought that Halogen and HID were the same thing, but they are two very different animals.

I get it, you want to love LED (I do too), but you are using confirmation bias to solidify your position. A few posts back you said you never have used a 150w HPS, but somehow you think you know how hot it's gonna be. Just blow a fan at the fixture, and the heat will dissipate.

You’re right that I was incorrect in that HPS do not use a filament. However, I never once equated Halogen with HPS. Please go back and reread, that was a different user. I have only limited experience with halogen work lights, and those things run ridiculously hot. For a HPS, we both know you can’t safely handle a recently lit bulb, even with a fan on it. It’s not designed to dissipate heat. Also the fan can not remove the heat generated by IR until it actually hits something like a leaf or a wall, so the fan does little to help in this regard.


Although I don’t have experience with a 150 HPS I have used a 250, 400, 1000 numerous times in the past. Either way, it’s not my job to convince you, you’re free to grow as you like. Just don’t come in a thread discussing that’s discussing a certain topic and think you’re the first to “show us something better”. I only took the time to reply to show that your supposed “arguments” are unfounded and not what real world results show. If you have nothing else to contribute, please move along.

 

[StillOvergrowin]

You called a HPS lamp a Halogen. That's not comparing apples to oranges actually; it's more akin to calling an apple an orange.

Please link me to an "off the shelf" LED bulb which emits 200 lumens/watt. Everything I see is about half that.

Maybe I assumed incorrectly, but I guess I thought this thread was about how to grow the best and most amount of weed with a cheap light that you can buy at the store for minimal cost. The answer to that is what I posted earlier.

Sure you can string LED bulbs all over, byt there is more to the cost than just the bulbs. You need multiple fixtures, wire, and ways to mount them. You won't get the canopy penetration with cheap led bulbs that you would with a cheap 150w HPS security lamp. The most important aspect is that you will get a very narrow light spectrum from over the counter LED's compared to what I posted earlier.

Sorry, and I'm not trying to poo poo your whole thread, but I think you're also kind of chasing the dragon. In terms of of stuff you can buy at the hardware store down the street for cheap, a HPS security light will produce the largest amount of the best quality weed, followed by a MH security light, next would be cfl, T5, or some other flouros, and last would be screw in LED bulbs. Even though technically LED are more efficient, plants like flouros better due to their broad spectrum.

F5
F5
F5


Your pictures aren't loading...did you get the links right??

 

[StillOvergrowin]

You called a HPS lamp a Halogen. That's not comparing apples to oranges actually; it's more akin to calling an apple an orange.

Please link me to an "off the shelf" LED bulb which emits 200 lumens/watt. Everything I see is about half that.

Maybe I assumed incorrectly, but I guess I thought this thread was about how to grow the best and most amount of weed with a cheap light that you can buy at the store for minimal cost. The answer to that is what I posted earlier.

Sure you can string LED bulbs all over, byt there is more to the cost than just the bulbs. You need multiple fixtures, wire, and ways to mount them. You won't get the canopy penetration with cheap led bulbs that you would with a cheap 150w HPS security lamp. The most important aspect is that you will get a very narrow light spectrum from over the counter LED's compared to what I posted earlier.

Sorry, and I'm not trying to poo poo your whole thread, but I think you're also kind of chasing the dragon. In terms of of stuff you can buy at the hardware store down the street for cheap, a HPS security light will produce the largest amount of the best quality weed, followed by a MH security light, next would be cfl, T5, or some other flouros, and last would be screw in LED bulbs. Even though technically LED are more efficient, plants like flouros better due to their broad spectrum.

F5
F5
F5


Your pictures aren't loading...did you get the links right??

 

[indagroove]

You’re right that I was incorrect in that HPS do not use a filament. However, I never once equated Halogen with HPS. Please go back and reread, that was a different user.

My apologies. You are correct, I did mistake you with another user. I'm not interested in continuing the debate, but I did want to put in a but of sanity for any noobs who might think that over the counter LED's will give you the same type of quality as HPS. No reason to be chasing the dragon.

 

[indagroove]

F5
F5
F5


Your pictures aren't loading...did you get the links right??

Is this one working?