Noobin up a PPK

[DaveTheNewbie]

all i wanted was a bit of calmag. i didnt know it was full of sugars when i bought it
im not super excited about the idea of blumats clogging up with sugar slime, never mind the PPK

well i cleaned out my res and restocked it with purely GH products. it seems much happier now.
i guess something i had wasnt reacting well with something else i had, and slime was the result
im of the opinion that benes maybe shouldnt be put in the res, but mixed into the medium whem potting. or maybe it was the kelp4less.com ultimate mix stuff, thats full of organic food.

anyway alls well now, for now

 

[Mister_D]

So this is the reason you don`t concern yourself with "dripclean" huh Dbro...........You da man......and.....

Less is more .....bet on it....

Peace....DHF...........

Actually I only use it on my organic garden atm. I was using it at my threads garden early on, while using GH biothrive (i.e sugary bottled organics/biofilm waiting to happen). I use it mainly for root health and soil building, but noticed it kept the drip lines free of the slime that comes from using organics in a reservoir. No idea if it would also keep salt buildup out of drip lines though, or keep it from building up in your media. Hmmmmmmm I see some testing in my future. The reason I don't require drip clean is because 95% of the time my res only has 0.6-0.8 EC worth of nutes in it. I only go up to 1.2 when/if I feel a PK boost is necessary. By using just enough nutes I never have build up/burn issues with my plants. Flushing is also facilitated, because there is no buildup nutes stay in relative proportion to each other, insuring nothing gets locked up during the flush. This allows me to flush faster, and insures my media has a clear slate for reuse (no left over bloom nutes going to the next round of vegging plants).

I know that 98% of people that read that will probably say i'm full of shit, no way 300-400 ppm @ .5 will keep a vegging plant happy right? much less a flowering plant? I'd strongly advise any doubters to learn more about aeroponics, CEC, and how nutrients function once poured on your chosen media. I'd also advise you start your learning process on a college or above level website. Icmag has a ton of information, but most of it is only half or situation correct. Not to say that there isn't a metric ton useful knowledge on this site, just that it can become confusing when wading through all the bullshit.

well i cleaned out my res and restocked it with purely GH products. it seems much happier now.
i guess something i had wasnt reacting well with something else i had, and slime was the result
im of the opinion that benes maybe shouldnt be put in the res, but mixed into the medium whem potting. or maybe it was the kelp4less.com ultimate mix stuff, thats full of organic food.

anyway alls well now, for now

Like fred always says....... less is more!
Like I'm always sayin........ ratio and concentration!

Words to grow by

 

[DHF]

Amen DBro.....Knew you weren`t usin it with the coco , and was just pluggin your lower ppm`s across the board cuz........

Proof`s in da puddin , as well as your base nutes and what additives are run that makes up that "ratio and concentration"....and....Less is always more.....bet on it.....

Peace.....Freds...........

 

[Mister_D]

Amen DBro.....Knew you weren`t usin it with the coco , and was just pluggin your lower ppm`s across the board cuz........

Proof`s in da puddin , as well as your base nutes and what additives are run that makes up that "ratio and concentration"....and....Less is always more.....bet on it.....

Peace.....Freds...........

Oh I run it in coco too (the big garden is an blend of a few things, but primarily coco based). I'd be running at the threads spot also, but keep forgetting to bring some more there. I'm a huge believer in using benes in all methods of growing.

As you know I don't generally bother with additives. I do use roots excel on my clones while in beer cups, as it shaves a couple days off transplant time. SM-90, I have mixed feelings about with the new formula. Plants still love it, still kills bugs just as well, but there is now an oily residue that builds up if kept in a res. Not sure that it would become problematic with drippers as I stopped using it until I have time to monitor things closer. Might be that the new formula is better at lower than 5ml for a maintenance dose. I'll do some testing in the future. If nothing else i'll always keep a bottle around for root pest control. Might try it on mites someday also. Aside from those two things, I add agsil 16H which is just a concentrated powder form of protekt or silica blast. I don't consider it an additive though, as it's just potassium and silica. Both plant nutrients that should be included in any complete fertilizer program. A lot of this is habit from running recirculating death without a cause, never add anything that isn't absolutely necessary for fear you might piss off the water gods and kill your whole crop. You know what though, even in coco I don't have lock out problems, my ph is VERY predictable, and my plant health and yields even at the remote grow, smash many growers that live with there plants. Wonder who that guy was over a decade ago pounding less is more into my head..........

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

I know that 98% of people that read that will probably say i'm full of shit, no way 300-400 ppm @ .5 will keep a vegging plant happy right? much less a flowering plant?

i was running at about 0.8 - 1.0 EC and doing fine until i hit a PPK. The plants there showed serious deficiencies almost straight away, that i can only put down to insane growth rates. Bumping up to 1.5 EC or so with same nutes fixed everything.

i dont say your full of shit, but i would love to see you run a PPK at those rates and see if you could pull it off

I'm a huge believer in using benes in all methods of growing.

im using the benes, just i figure putting the powder into the coco when starting would work as well as putting it into the res, would save wasting it, and would be 1 less thing to add to the nute mix

As you know I don't generally bother with additives.

the only "additive" that im using that your not is a chelating agent (fulvic, humic, kelp etc), and i believe that its well worth it. I moved from kelp4less ultimate mix to GH floralicious plus just too see what happens, and that stuff is expensive. Plus 1 run with a blueberry flavoring thingy for shits and giggles, but thats just a 1 off.

anyway i really need to get some EM-1 and some powdered silica and calmag because the bottled stuff im using is stupid expensive for basically water and some powders.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

ok so i got bored in the room tonight and ran some PPK water into a cup to check where its at.
PH 5.8 : perfect
EC 3.44 : completely over the top

I dont see any problems in the plant herself, and i know other people run a PPK in coco, but i really dont trust that a plant will be happy with such an EC.
I could change the water in the PPK but its a real PITA to do, and i want to see what happens if i dont.

 

[Mister_D]

i was running at about 0.8 - 1.0 EC and doing fine until i hit a PPK. The plants there showed serious deficiencies almost straight away, that i can only put down to insane growth rates. Bumping up to 1.5 EC or so with same nutes fixed everything.

i dont say your full of shit, but i would love to see you run a PPK at those rates and see if you could pull it off

This comes down to ratio. IF your concentration is low like mine you have to monitor ratio and ph very carefully. Think of it like this, the idea is to feed your plant just barely more than it needs (this allows slight buildup of nutes that will become a buffer during heavy feeding times in flower (i.e stretch and heavy bud formation)) If either your ratio, concentration, or ph goes very far out of range you will see deficiencies and/or lockout (Especially during veg while nutes are building up). This is because there isn't a lot of extra nutes to counterbalance things when one element is being used faster than others (i.e N in veg, and PK in flower). I guess I should have explained that this isn't the easiest way to grow. You really need a firm understanding of the nutes being used, as well as the requirements of the plants you are growing.

im using the benes, just i figure putting the powder into the coco when starting would work as well as putting it into the res, would save wasting it, and would be 1 less thing to add to the nute mix

Yes add the powder during transplant. Ideally you would dig out a transplant hole in the new pot, sprinkle some benes in the transplant hole where the roots will be in direct contact. Either method works though.

the only "additive" that im using that your not is a chelating agent (fulvic, humic, kelp etc), and i believe that its well worth it. I moved from kelp4less ultimate mix to GH floralicious plus just too see what happens, and that stuff is expensive. Plus 1 run with a blueberry flavoring thingy for shits and giggles, but thats just a 1 off.

I did forget to mention I also occasionally use "ful-power" and "humisolve" These are very concentrated high quality fulvic and humic acid products. Highly recommended.

anyway i really need to get some EM-1 and some powdered silica and calmag because the bottled stuff im using is stupid expensive for basically water and some powders.

 

[delta9nxs]

ok so i got bored in the room tonight and ran some PPK water into a cup to check where its at.
PH 5.8 : perfect
EC 3.44 : completely over the top

I dont see any problems in the plant herself, and i know other people run a PPK in coco, but i really dont trust that a plant will be happy with such an EC.
I could change the water in the PPK but its a real PITA to do, and i want to see what happens if i dont.

3.44 is not "over the top" it's just a little higher than necessary and won't hurt your plant at all.

so .8-1.0 was not enough initially and now 1.5 is climbing. try 1.2 for a while. this is without changing your solution. just add a lower input. this steers it back down without ph shock.

you have not gotten to the point where you trust the system yet!

 

[FlowerFarmer]

D9,

Have you ever ran your system with straight RO in the bulk tank?
Adding back nutrient to the pulse res as the EC dwindles/pH rises... the system being gradually diluted as it auto tops off.


This is how I typically managed a hydro res. Auto diluted via RO fed float valve.. only to be "topped up" with nutrient every week or so to bring me back to my target EC.



EDIT - oh, I see why this wouldnt work in a PPK. Your pulse res is essentially span across all of the modules as well. Wouldn't be able to get a proper addback mixed without perhaps sending a straight concentrated couple doses through the rootzone.

..or could you..Could make the low modules constantly recirculate back with the pulse res (without touching the rootzone)....like in there own UC style circuit.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

3.44 is not "over the top" it's just a little higher than necessary and won't hurt your plant at all.

so .8-1.0 was not enough initially and now 1.5 is climbing. try 1.2 for a while. this is without changing your solution. just add a lower input. this steers it back down without ph shock.

thanks for the input big fella! Ive already dialed it down, but theres alot of res to get thru before it will make a difference. At the end of the day replacing the res once a month is not deadly hard work, and its a compromise i can handle. For the first run i just want to see what happens before i fuck around like that tho.

you have not gotten to the point where you trust the system yet!

im not a trusting soul, and i havent finished a run yet. That comes with time. But if it can survive this then it really is pretty bulletproof!

Could make the low modules constantly recirculate back with the pulse res (without touching the rootzone)....like in there own UC style circuit.

so put a RDWC plug into the bottom satelight res for added complexity. What are you trying to achieve with this idea? How is it different to running the pump more often and pulsing harder to recirculate the water faster? I mean i get that your avoiding the root bucket by doing this, but to what aim?

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Dave,

How I typically run a recirculating hydro setup is to have my "res" auto diluted by my "bulk tank" filled with straight RO water.

So my reservoir and plant modules are drinking juice.. as this occurs the water level is dropping and the system is being diluted down with RO - thus lowering my EC and upping my pH. At which point (maybe once a week) I would return to the reservoir and test my EC. It would have dwindled down and I would need to add nutrient back to bring me back up to my desired EC. This allows the solution to swing through a range of EC and pH...allowing for full absorption of elements across the board.


I started to think about running a PPK this way.. which might help with your rising EC as the system would be continuously weakened until doing your add-back of nutrient. However, in the PPK system.. the only way your plant modules recirculate with your pulse reservoir is by feeding (through the upper container & rootzone). This would seemingly pose a problem as the nutrient addback to your pulse reservoir would have to account for the volume in your plant modules. There would be no way to get this all mixed up properly without sending that addback concentrated juice through a couple of pulse cycles to circulate your pulse res and modules together. < - - and I'm sure doing that would cause more problems then good and likely burn em up.


I hope thats clear as to what I'm saying. Not trying to over complicate things or reinvent the wheel. Just throwing some ponderings out there.



Upon 1st discovering D9s PPKs I found it odd that he was topping his system with full strength nutes. As a lucas follower I was also taught that this would not work as you'd eventually develop imbalance as the plants took what they needed, and left the remainder behind.. only to be topped up with more full strength juice - leading to a toxicity or imbalance. Clearly D9 has shown us that this is not the truth.. at least not with PPK and/or the Jacks+CalNit profile.

Or something like that.

I mean i get that your avoiding the root bucket by doing this, but to what aim?

To mix up my addback nutrient throughout the pulse res and plant modules without harming the rootzone during the mixing process... all while still maintaining an auto top off with RO water only, to create a gradual EC drop/pH up behavior in the system itself.

Agreed that this would be a bit over complicating the system, but it would perhaps give you more control over the strength/pH of your pulse res and plant sites. You wouldn't have to "steer" your numbers by altering the bulk res strength... you would simply set your system at your target EC with addbacks and allow it to be diluted during the course of the week or whatever. Although this might require a much larger pulse res so that the system isnt almost immediately diluted down after the volume of the pulse res/plant sites is consumed.



Not trying to confuse you dave. Just thinking to myself..and your recent conversation seemed sort of relevant.

 

[St3ve]

great post FF and thats a great way to do it!

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

yeah i follow you fully now FF, thanks for breaking it down for me.
ive also been taught all those things and more, and the damn PPK seems to break all the rules, and more.
and yet it seems to be the premier system out there, got me confused as to why.

anyway i sat in my grow tent last night and just got in touch with my PPK plant. It is one truely amazing plant. Its shape and size are mind blowing, and its still in the late stages of stretch. That one plant is taking over half the tent on its own that i used to run 4 plants in with the same amount of veg time. I believe when it finally comes down people will not believe the weight that is pulled with a 4 week veg and 8 week flower, even tho i have no inkling of exactally how much that will be.

i did remove half the nutes from the PPK lower bucket and replace with fresh nutes for good luck, my gut said go for it.

piccies tomorrow, but no piccie will do it justice.

 

[delta9nxs]

D9,

Have you ever ran your system with straight RO in the bulk tank?
Adding back nutrient to the pulse res as the EC dwindles/pH rises... the system being gradually diluted as it auto tops off.


This is how I typically managed a hydro res. Auto diluted via RO fed float valve.. only to be "topped up" with nutrient every week or so to bring me back to my target EC.



EDIT - oh, I see why this wouldnt work in a PPK. Your pulse res is essentially span across all of the modules as well. Wouldn't be able to get a proper addback mixed without perhaps sending a straight concentrated couple doses through the rootzone.

..or could you..Could make the low modules constantly recirculate back with the pulse res (without touching the rootzone)....like in there own UC style circuit.

sometimes i will run just ro or tap water but rarely. in the scenario where i have just depleted a bulk volume tank and at the same time the system is running too high i will input water only until i get it where i want it then top off the volume tank again and mix a fresh batch.

while the add back mixing could be achieved by running the pump more you are still better off mixing in the volume tank.

take two solutions at a nearly perfect ratio, let's say 3-1-4.

one is depleted and then corrected in place in large events.

the other is depleted and then corrected in a series of small events from a premixed source that is the same strength as the reservoir.

which one is more likely to get out of whack? that is, which one is more likely to be closer to the original ratio and ec, ph, after a period of time?

also, which one will stray the least distance from an imaginary perfect line?

what dave is going through here is finding the input point that lets him run a certain ec level that is yet to be determined.

ec is just another ratio. a ratio of water to nutrients.

he has some extreme conditions to deal with.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

he has some extreme conditions to deal with.

and ive never seen a nicer plant in my house.

I believe its 3 weeks flowering now. The leaves are a little yellow so ive dropped the EC and refreshed the nutes a bit. That should help.

 

[delta9nxs]

and ive never seen a nicer plant in my house.

View Image

I believe its 3 weeks flowering now. The leaves are a little yellow so ive dropped the EC and refreshed the nutes a bit. That should help.

i see the yellow and think "what is wrong?", then realize that you are still using maxibloom, which is too light on nitrogen. just a little. can you get any calcium nitrate there?

also, three weeks in flower is when the solution will change because the plant changes it's uptake profile. from now on it will run higher ec and lower ph than it did during veg and stretch. so you want to steer it back down.

since you have been running a little light on nitrogen this is a good time to boost it a little. before you get into late flower.

nitrogen is the most mobile nutrient and what you are seeing is the plant pulling stored nitrogen from older material to feed new growth. you have the classic pattern. the problem is that it retards shoot growth as well, affecting bud formation.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

i see the yellow and think "what is wrong?", then realize that you are still using maxibloom, which is too light on nitrogen. just a little. can you get any calcium nitrate there?

also, three weeks in flower is when the solution will change because the plant changes it's uptake profile. from now on it will run higher ec and lower ph than it did during veg and stretch. so you want to steer it back down.

since you have been running a little light on nitrogen this is a good time to boost it a little. before you get into late flower.

nitrogen is the most mobile nutrient and what you are seeing is the plant pulling stored nitrogen from older material to feed new growth. you have the classic pattern. the problem is that it retards shoot growth as well, affecting bud formation.

ok awesome advice

should i just stick a tad of N into the bottom res of the PPK or is it needed longer term?

aka is the problem for this stage of growth only or is it a long term problem where i should have more N throughout the grow in the main res ?

if i have to start adding more N long term i might just look for a new base nute instead. Maxibloom is 5-15-14. What would be the perfect ratio for a perpetual system veg and flower all stages?

EDIT : Im wondering if GH Duo would be the go, that seems to have the flexability to mix pretty much whatever ratio i want, as long as i know what i want.
5-0-6 and 1-5-4, mix as required. Assuming it works like i would guess,
1-1 would be 6-5-10, and 1-2 would be 7-10-14
A PK heavy mix of say 3-1 might unbalance the micronutes tho, no idea.

how does 7-10-14 sound like a replacement for 5-15-14?

 

[forkup]

It sounds way off from the recommended 3-1-4 The ppk plant is rocking, you're gonna have donkey dicks to deal with.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Lookin good Dave,

I'm hoping the plants I'm about to load up my PPKs with grow exactly like that. Grows with a very similar structure. Can't wait to see what a PPK does to her.

6 headed monster ya got there.

 

[Grow4Flow]

Nice job Dave! can't wait to build my system, need to find tub substitute first. looking forward to seeing the end product.