What he said!!Good post Hed!!Thank you for showing up and joining in our little discussion.Always good to get the opinion of an experienced grower/breeder.Yes I spose my bros done some stuff with chems and had to tell me for I knew the difference.Once he did I SAID I could taste it but it was prolly all in my head..LOL!!Peace mang!!GromerrPott!!
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Nifty
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Absolutely, nifty...
Over concentration of nutrient ruins good pot, and the quickest way to over concentrate is to follow Mfg. instructions. Pushing a plant for production diminishes the quality.
One thing which is interesting... Everyone calls nutrients like GH flora series "Chem" nutes... This is accurate but misleading... Of course the nutrient are composed of chemicals, everything is... What is more important is what the chemicals are derived from...
I'm sure less people would be afraid of GenHydro if people refer to them as 'refined mineral nutrients' instead of 'Chem Nutes'...
Over concentration of nutrient ruins good pot, and the quickest way to over concentrate is to follow Mfg. instructions. Pushing a plant for production diminishes the quality.
One thing which is interesting... Everyone calls nutrients like GH flora series "Chem" nutes... This is accurate but misleading... Of course the nutrient are composed of chemicals, everything is... What is more important is what the chemicals are derived from...
I'm sure less people would be afraid of GenHydro if people refer to them as 'refined mineral nutrients' instead of 'Chem Nutes'...
Wow I stepped ouit to take care of the garden and do a tray of clones and look what I come back to.Cant we all get along bruthas.This thread was building up some SUPER INFO and Hed is directly responsible for alot of it.Whether we agree with him or not he is welcome and a contributing factor to this thread and the community as a whole,we shouldnt be knocking him.Cant we all really have an INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION without it becoming a pissing contests.We are al, adults here lets start acting like it.Just my two cents.All you need is love,love.Love is all you need.Shiny happy people stating threads,shiny happy people posting,shiny happy people holding hands!!!Happy people!!!
Sorry gromer... and you're right... I've nothing to prove to this guy and nothing to prove about this guy... Thanks for the wake up, bro... I'll delete all my extraneous off topic posts...gromer said:
Hmm thats funny I was thinking the same thing,dint know if such a thing was possible.Now if everyone else will follow suit well have a pretty killer little thread here.Hmm you never responded about the refined minerals thing.Are all inorganic liquid ferts made like this or do some companies actually use straight up chems,like boron.Thats a chem right?I think thats in my bottle of Fox Farm,I think dont quote me on that one.Youve almost got this hardcore dirt farmer thinking of givin a 50/50 grow a run and see what I can do.Now look what yer doing.Yer prying open my third eye,frikn guy...LOL!Oh yeh Hed I found this pic today.A little sea of green G13X Sour Diesel B4 I so foolishly lost it,Ahh well thanxx to you it wont be forever,thanxx man!!
Well Boron is an element, it is present in minerals in the environment, it is also a chemical and a micronutrient...gromer said:Hmm thats funny I was thinking the same thing,dint know if such a thing was possible.Now if everyone else will follow suit well have a pretty killer little thread here.Hmm you never responded about the refined minerals thing.Are all inorganic liquid ferts made like this or do some companies actually use straight up chems,like boron.Thats a chem right?I think thats in my bottle of Fox Farm,I think dont quote me on that one.Youve almost got this hardcore dirt farmer thinking of givin a 50/50 grow a run and see what I can do.Now look what yer doing.Yer prying open my third eye,frikn guy...LOL!Oh yeh Hed I found this pic today.A little sea of green G13X Sour Diesel B4 I so foolishly lost it,Ahh well thanxx to you it wont be forever,thanxx man!!
Everything which has a definite chemical substance is a chemical...
Water is a chemical...
Whether or not something is a chemical is really not the point at all... In all reality every organic substance is made up of chemicals, as is every inorganic substance...
In my mind the point should be :
a. What was the source for the chemicals?
b. What is the purity of the chemicals?
The only way to determine the source, is to research manufacturer's literature as far as I know... A handy way to compare purity is through this fairly comprehensive list... http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/Product1.asp
Looking at contents which are non nutrient...( i.e. lead mercury and arsenic) to determine the relative purity of different products...
I like GenHydro, and am most familiar with it and am not well versed enough to tell you if all ferts available are mineral derived or come from some sort of byproducts or laboratory synthesis... That'll take some homework by the consumer when considering their products...
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All organics can be broken down into this because all organics are made up of this.
All "hydro chems" can be broken down into this becuase all "hydro chems" are made up of this.
You can never create or destroy matter, only transform it.
Either you control the ratio or let the microherd control it for you.
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As of yet I have not had to delete a thread or close since the beginning of this forum, let's keep it that way.
Airing out dirty laundry and shit talking should be done by PM and save us all the drama.
The question was well placed and innocent enough:
1) Very few natural sources of potasium silicate exist, composting organic matter that is high in silica can do the trick but organics are usually very hardy in growth. Try shrimp meal instead, in contains chitin traces which will trigger the plants fungi response system, it's a form of beneficial stress.
Otherwise using kelp meal or liquid kelp will supply your plants with growth hormone which can have similar results.
2)Castile soap is an excellent product, Dr. Bronner makes a good one, I use it with hard to dissolve ingredients like kelp or neem oil when I make a tea or foliar. Using a low ppm source of water also will help solubility.
3)Consistently adjusting ph is a hydro thing that unfortunately often translates into organic methods of growing. This is one thing that organics has over synthetic ferts, the ability to buffer the medium through the general composting action and breakdown of soil elements by the microherd. The general presence of humic elements buffers and makes nutrients available over a broader ph range. Most things you add to your soil and the peat itself is acidic to begin with, I generally use dolimite lime to fight this acidity. If for some reason you require a lower ph then use elements like fish emulsion, they really lower ph as do guanos and most all in one organic ferts.
No matter what anyone will EVER post I will always believe that mother nature devised a perfect system over millenia so in her wisdom I trust and I will remain weary of what any corporation has to say about their ferts.
Suby
Airing out dirty laundry and shit talking should be done by PM and save us all the drama.
The question was well placed and innocent enough:
1) Very few natural sources of potasium silicate exist, composting organic matter that is high in silica can do the trick but organics are usually very hardy in growth. Try shrimp meal instead, in contains chitin traces which will trigger the plants fungi response system, it's a form of beneficial stress.
Otherwise using kelp meal or liquid kelp will supply your plants with growth hormone which can have similar results.
2)Castile soap is an excellent product, Dr. Bronner makes a good one, I use it with hard to dissolve ingredients like kelp or neem oil when I make a tea or foliar. Using a low ppm source of water also will help solubility.
3)Consistently adjusting ph is a hydro thing that unfortunately often translates into organic methods of growing. This is one thing that organics has over synthetic ferts, the ability to buffer the medium through the general composting action and breakdown of soil elements by the microherd. The general presence of humic elements buffers and makes nutrients available over a broader ph range. Most things you add to your soil and the peat itself is acidic to begin with, I generally use dolimite lime to fight this acidity. If for some reason you require a lower ph then use elements like fish emulsion, they really lower ph as do guanos and most all in one organic ferts.
No matter what anyone will EVER post I will always believe that mother nature devised a perfect system over millenia so in her wisdom I trust and I will remain weary of what any corporation has to say about their ferts.
Suby
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Absolutely agree... And having personal experience using mineral nutrient, am quite pleased that man has devised ways to properly use that system, which mother nature perfected...Suby said:No matter what anyone will EVER post I will always believe that mother nature devised a perfect system over millenia so in her wisdom I trust
Suby
Peace and Love...
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No but thats what Im saying they all realized they were in the wrong and deleted the posts.Even said to eachother sorry least I think they did.Why would the thread need be deleted if everyone involved already realized that they were wrong and cleaned it up.Can you not read the deleted posts or somthing,I was here the whole time and it seriously was not a big deal at all.Not half of what peeps do on the Kush/Chemdawg arguments that go on for pages and pages and are still up to this day for all to read.Usually not one intelligent post in the lot.So how does this a thread that is stating to fill with great info qualify for deletion?
I agree, gromer... and debate where the debaters can moderate themselves successfully is a fairly smooth running debate... In fact, Not much is really even being debated other than the self moderated off-topic bits... More like a fairly smooth running discussion, which nearly got out of hand, but didn't...
First off I'm not an organic expert, and probably will never be. With organics there always seems to be more to learn, as your constantly delving deeper into how things work, and how the plants make use of certain organic materials.
I do find organic growing much more rewarding then pouring on complete liquid fertilizers, and have adopted that style of growing for cultivating my favorite plants.
Most the other posts covered your questions, but I have a few other ideas to use for organic surficants, or ph down.
2) I've been using yucca extract for surfactants in my organic garden. It's available both in a powder, and liquid extract. Liquid a lil more expensive. The powdered yucca can be added directly to the soil, or watered in with your teas. For a foliar feeding surficant I add the yucca powder right to the stocking I use to hold my organic nutrient filled material, or the liquid can be added right to the sprayer as needed..
I never used wet betty, but I have a feeling if it's a surficant and organic it has yucca in it... Just a guess...
3) for ph down I use other organic materials.. For ph down in veg a few drops of alaska fish emulsion will bring it right down, and add nothing your plants couldn't use anyway. In flower the high p bat guano has always brought my 7.5ph tap down into a more usable range. With organic soil growing though, as long as your soil is healthy, and contains all those organic goodies to buffer ph, the ph of nutrients being watered in is not as important as in say hydroponics, or soiless growing with refined mineral nutrient solutions/chem nutes. I still shoot for a 6-7ph and have no problems getting there using organic materials.
For the long term control of ph as things start breaking down in the soil, As mentioned earlier dolomite lime included in your soil mix will do a lot as far as controlling the soils ph, and keeping ph in a usable range for the uptake of nutrients.
I do find organic growing much more rewarding then pouring on complete liquid fertilizers, and have adopted that style of growing for cultivating my favorite plants.
Most the other posts covered your questions, but I have a few other ideas to use for organic surficants, or ph down.
2) I've been using yucca extract for surfactants in my organic garden. It's available both in a powder, and liquid extract. Liquid a lil more expensive. The powdered yucca can be added directly to the soil, or watered in with your teas. For a foliar feeding surficant I add the yucca powder right to the stocking I use to hold my organic nutrient filled material, or the liquid can be added right to the sprayer as needed..
I never used wet betty, but I have a feeling if it's a surficant and organic it has yucca in it... Just a guess...
3) for ph down I use other organic materials.. For ph down in veg a few drops of alaska fish emulsion will bring it right down, and add nothing your plants couldn't use anyway. In flower the high p bat guano has always brought my 7.5ph tap down into a more usable range. With organic soil growing though, as long as your soil is healthy, and contains all those organic goodies to buffer ph, the ph of nutrients being watered in is not as important as in say hydroponics, or soiless growing with refined mineral nutrient solutions/chem nutes. I still shoot for a 6-7ph and have no problems getting there using organic materials.
For the long term control of ph as things start breaking down in the soil, As mentioned earlier dolomite lime included in your soil mix will do a lot as far as controlling the soils ph, and keeping ph in a usable range for the uptake of nutrients.
Nifty said:I have a couple of Qs I'd like to ask our organic experts:
1) The use of truly inert substances (like perlite) is generally considered ok for true organic gardening. Also, it is generally considered ok to use minerals that are usually found in soil naturally such as dolomite lime, epsom salt etc.
Given that the above is true, is the following substance considered ok for true organic gardening?:
Potassium silicate. Silicates are found naturally in soil, yes? But this is a manufactured product. Is it ok for true organic farming?
If not, does anyone know of an organic source of silicates??
The reason I ask this is that of all the chemical products that I have grown with, the only one I really miss is the silicate. It really does make a huge difference to the hardiness and yield of the plant.
2) Does anyone know of an organic surfactant? I used to use a drop or 2 of washing up liquid in my sprays and foliar feeds. It helps to wet the leaves more easily. Is there anything organic I can use instead??
3) Does anyone know of a good, long-lasting organic pH down? I have tried using lemon juice but it becomes ineffective after a few days. Any other ideas??
Cheers for any help offered!
Ahh the great mister Postman.Great post by the way as are most of your contributions.I forget where I saw it but you posted one time about teas made from the rootballs of flowering plants.I always thought what a waste tossin allthat beautifully colonized root zone and voila the answer in the form of a tea.How brilliant,Ive been doin it now for a week or so.My mums seem extra perky and happy looking.Thanxx man you are a genius.Keep those informative and well written posts a comin Misterpostman!!!Peace,Gromerr Pott!!
gromer said:
Good deal gromer. I try to add things wherever I can here, and I'm always trying something new, basically just messing around in my free time. Sometimes I get lucky and find things that work as good as I thought they would LMAO...
I find the medium teas to be a good start for a fresh newly mixed soil. It's puts in those benificials that have proven strong enough to survive, and up to the task of colonizing the roots of marijuana plants, or whatever plants ur growing in the particular mix ur growing in. The innoculants work by adding many different kinds, and varieties of benificials hoping that the few that can prosper and reproduce in the environment do. This kinda gives them a hand in inoculating the new mix, and getting everything started in the right direction prior to planting the crop.
I actually got this idea from a local farmer. He said the roots hold all those benificials as well as growth hormones. Now I do this for innoculating beneficials into a new mix, but I was always interested where the hormones would come into play. And how the plant would benefit from specific plant hormones? Anyone have any info on such stuff please share, or pm as it is off topic a bit. When i originally posted it I was hoping to get more feedback on the topic.
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