New sub-forum suggestion...12/12 from seed

[Hal]

Hey Onthatlevel,

Nice kitty! One important reason for having a sub-forum is so we could search for grow reports on plants grown by this method. I'm guessing not every hybrid will respond as good as others, and it would be good to research this before planting beans.

Maybe this could be a sub-forum in the grow reports section. Trying to do a search by plugging in a strain name without having a sub-forum will bring back ALL results for that strain name, and you will be reading through all these threads all day trying to find what in effect will only be a few sentences of information.

That is the main reason for having a sub-forum...being able to research which beans respond favorably, or not favorably, to this grow method before you start your garden.

Thanks for mentioning the positive female to male ratio also. I remember reading that a while ago, the one time I tried this with northern lights I sprouted 5 beans and got 4 females.

Oh, and nice plant too!

 

[Hal]

Hey 10K,

Yes I am serious.

I have one grow under my belt using this method, but have seen quite a few others on OG that were doing it also, very successfully. The strain that I grew was Nirvana Northern Lights. Most of the people who were reporting on this grow method at OG were suggesting it be used on sativas or sativa hybrids, in order to keep their height manageable for indoor gardens.

Many people who were growing with this method were under the impression that an indica or indica dom plant would wind up being way too short without some veg time to give a worthwhile yield. Because I had serious space issues, and didn’t want to grow another lowryder garden, I decided to see what I would get using this method with a short indica dom plant. It worked perfectly for my situation.

I did have pictures, a shitload of ‘em, but when OG went down I got paranoid that Big Brother was going to come get me, so I erased all the photographs. But there are photos here on IG if you do a search.

Regarding bud production….all I can tell you is that I got more than an ounce of dried bud off each of my 4 northern lights plants, the shortest being 12” (incredibly dense, fat cola!), and the tallest being 23”. That might not be enough for some growers, but it suits my needs just fine. I also grew those plants in small containers…square, 5.5 inches to a side…because I wanted to keep the plants small and I knew about the relation of pot size to plant size.

Regarding your points about potency potential, from what I understand, and I have seen discussions on this, the potency is held within the genetics, and is not affected at all by how you grow the plant. The only way this method holds back the plant is in size and yield. The bud I grew was kickass.

The primary reason folks choose to grow with clones is not to have sexually mature stock to start with…it is to maintain a genetic line that has proven itself to be superior to all the other plants that they grew starting from seed. The sexual maturity of the clone is a secondary benefit.

I know you have a lot of experience growing some fine cannabis, but most of your input regarding this method is based on hearsay and innuendo. You should do an experiment yourself, it would be very easy, just stick some fresh sprouts into a grow that you are starting to flower…maybe try to match up a strain that will incorporate the extra 2 to 3 weeks it will take for the sprouts to show their sex…then toss the males when they show and just give ‘em the love and care that you do your other girls. See how it works for yourself, I think you might be surprised. Just be realistic about the smaller yield your going to get.

 

[Hal]

Hey Dude06version,

I feel it is important to somehow be able to access information about how certain strains respond favorably to this method, and how some might not do so well. I'm no search expert, not even close, but from what I can tell if you search for info on a particular strain on IC, you pull up page after page after page wherever that strain is mentioned. That is way too much reading just find out how the strain responds to being grown 12/12 from seed.

 

[Hal]

Let me just clarify a little here, im not talking sat's here, everyone knows you can grow sat's from 12/12, and especially with pure sats it is the only realistic way for many indoor growers to grow them that way. It's your preposed idea to grow any strain this way, and im afraid thats just poor practise, if its a size issue, top and train them and learn to best utilise the space you have to achieve best results growing indicas from 12/12 will never give you the same results as a plant thats been vegged and trained, scrog or lst, I dont think anyone on this board will deny that veg time is always influential on final yield. I just dont think this method is economical enough to justify people doing it, there's already a forum for micro grows showing many good methods to best utilise small spaces with limited plant numbers, and I bet they will all give better results than blooming indica's from 12/12.
The method of growing isn't in question, its whether or not it should be encouraged, and I say no, because the results will always be sub par compared to a grow thats had a veg period.
Peace
Baffled

Hey Baffled,

Dude, you are claiming way too much knowledge, and dismissing as worthless, about something that you have absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with. I am not saying anything about your knowledge and experience growing cannabis the traditional way, you likely know your shit backwards as well as forwards. But it it obvious from your responses here that you have never tried to grow using the 12/12 from seed method, so you really don't know what you are talking about.

You probably have a kickass setup to grow pot. Obviously you have a garden section where you flower your plants. Why not try an experiment? These plants don't grow tall, they typically are in the pole shape, and you could slip in a few sprouts when you flower your next batch. Just see how they grow, give 'em love and care like your others, and then smoke 'em up to see how their potency holds up.

Give it a try.

 

[stikky budz]

we could search for grow reports on plants grown by this method. I'm guessing not every hybrid will respond as good as others, and it would be good to research this before planting beans

Some kind of "catalogue" of how different strains re-act is a very good idea. I wouldn't ever try it again personally, but it would interesting to see what others are up to

 

[Safari]

I am all for this sub-forum. I think it would persuade some people to give it a try, and it would be a great resource for those already using this style of growing. It's amazing how negative some of you are about something you have never tried. Yes, 12/12 from seed isn't the most effecient way to grow, but we all gotta do what we gotta do, and it's still growing your own, which is why we are all hear.

The point is, 12/12 from seed works on almost any strain, and it can be a good process for the right person, such as me. I grow in one small-small box. I could veg and flower in this box, but then I would only have a harvest every 3-4 months. By leaving my box in 12/12 all the time, I can add plants when ever there is room, and I can have a perpetual harvest every month. This isn't the best for everyone, but it works for me and others.

Great idea on the sub-forum Hal.

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

10K and stikky budz basically outlined the negative aspects of this grow method. A plant under 12/12 light from start will not go into flower mode straight away, it will still vegetate for 2-3 weeks and then flower.
Of course internode spacing will be greater if these 2-3 weeks are spent under 12/12 instead of 18/6, 20/4 or 24/24. It is so that less light hours will make the plant stretch more, it's a physical process called etiolation.

A clone taken from a sexually mature plant, will contain a higher ratio of flowering hormones, and will generally (depending on age and strain) flower faster than a not yet mature plant.

Regarding your points about potency potential, from what I understand, and I have seen discussions on this, the potency is held within the genetics, and is not affected at all by how you grow the plant.

It is undoubtedly so that the older a plant is, the greater its capacity to produce THC ("In general, the older a plant, the greater its potential to produce THC. This is true, however, only if the plant remains healthy and vigorous." Robert Connell Clarke; Marijuana Botany, Chapter 4 - Maturation and Harvesting of Cannabis; Factors Influencing THC Production).
Anyone that has experience from growing with clones knows that the clones generally outdo the seeded plant in potency). Shortening the life span of the plant (veg as flower) plant is therefore a way of lowering the plant's potency potential.

As 10K said, the plants capacity to prouce flowers is directly related to its root size. Roots never stop growing until peak floral state, so the longer your plant has vegged, in theory the bigger the yield.

I personally prefer the growth structure of a properly rooted clone. In comparision to a seed plant, it will develop a different (mature) phenotype, branch better, develop shorter internode spacing, produce a lower stem and leaf mass in relation to bud sites with less fan leaves and more flower cluster leaves, and in general (depending on strain) develop more bud sites. Even in one cola strains, a clone vegged and flowered for as long as a seed plant will generally yield more.

With clones, you've got a better control of your grow-op. The seed plants will produce different sexes (if not feminized), produce different phenotypes and react differently to the grow conditions (nutrients, light, temps etc). A clone from the same genetic stock will behave the same, stretch less, and you've got the advantage of knowing how that phenotype behaves (in flower), since you've already grown the seed plant.

 

[Hal]

Hey Rosy...

Never said this method was the "best." I started this thread by stating positives and negatives, including the 2 to 3 week portion you have to wait for the sex to show. My reason for starting the thread is that I believe that this method fits many growers needs more than the larger yielding gardens that are most often referrenced here on IG.

I am including a photo of 3 of my little plants (15 days old, sex not showing yet, working on the 5th node, Nirvana Bubblelicious) to show how the internode spacing is coming along. I'm not sure, don't have that much experience growing pot, but these don't appear to be stretching to me. They are only under a 2 bulb fluorescent fixture, 6500K, kept about 1 or 2 inches from the plants.

Thanks for including the reference to the book by Clarke, Marijuana Botany. That sounds interesting, I'll have to go look for it in a store or library. While I'm pretty sure that they tested cannabis plants at various stages of growth regarding the ability to manufacture THC, I also pretty sure that they didn't test a plant that had been put into flower directly from seed. One might assume that the results would hold true as with the other plants tested, but that isn't always the case. That is an assumption that should be tested.

Not really sure how you can compare clones potency with seed grown plants. Obviously, a clone that is selected has great genetic potential for desirable traits, potency being one, and plants grown from seed will be all over the map some (most) not as good as the selected clone, but maybe one or two better than the clone. Because the genetics are going to be different between the clone and the seed grown plant, comparisons are not useful.

It is true that growing from seed is missing a few attributes gained from growing with clones. But the main argument that seems to pop up most frequently in posts who have a problem with the 12/12 from seed method almost always seems to come down to YIELD. There is no question, this method does not yield nearly as much as growing with a veg period and getting a larger, more mature plant. But folks who would choose to grow with this method are typically not trying to get quantity.

I have never grown with clones. Would it be possible to grow a clone right from the beginning in 12/12? Do clones require a veg period?

Thanks for chipping in with references. I'm off to the library.

 

[JackKerouac]

It is great to experiment, but most people here are not scientists with permits to do experiments with Cannabis.

I applaud your innovation and commitment to improving growing techniques, but I fear for your well being.

Some places, it is legal to grow.

12/12 from seed is another avenue of growing. Maybe the technique hasn't been honed enough to be effective yet, but why stop people from trying?

There was a lot of resistance to "Micro grows", but it doesn't mean they don't work.

 

[Guest]

Disclaimer... Ive not done this nor do I intend to.. just an opinion....

Ive seen quite a few 'my big grow in my computer chasis' threads...

and lots of lowrider threads....

I wouldnt do any of those things either....

But I have seen at least one person who did this....

and the plants were quite comparable to lowriders...

and its a real possibility a good quality strain would be better than low riders... the plants looked ok.....

One big problem with this method is taking clones for next grow....

unless you revegged.....

lol.....

likely not possible....

All in all I think its an awful idea but I can see many other people doing it....

lord know why other people do anything.....

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

Hey Rosy...

Never said this method was the "best."

No you didn't. You proposed an alternative grow method which is great. Respect to you for that (and your wicked handle).
There are pros and cons to everything, some of the pros you've posted yourself, and some of the cons stated are the reason that this method isn't more popular than it is.

It basically boils down to this; a happy, healthy plant will produce more and better. The longer you let it grow, the bigger, stronger and more resistant it will be.
Shortening the plant's life span, in one way or another, will lead to less yield and lower quality.
Time is an important factor in all types of horticulture. As an amateur of select wines and viniculture, I know the French saying that no good wine will come off a vine younger than 10 years.

It is clear to me that my outdoor plants, that generally goes into the ground in March/April, and are allowed to grow and mature slowly until harvested in October/November, are of better quality high (depending on genetics of course) than my indoor plants, that are grown and harvested in 3 months plus.

As 10K pointed out, roots are the key factor to healthy plants and high, qualitative yields.

Roots are like hair, the longer it grows the more braincells you develop. Or so I heard...

 

[Hal]

I'll grant ya the yield thing. The potency factor, Mr. Clarke notwithstanding, I will withhold judgement on. Back on OG, in the thread that was devoted to this method, one of the original posters (might have been dude named "atmosphere") tested a plant grown this way against a plant grown normally with a veg period. Can't remember for the life of me how he made it an accurate comparison, with the same genetics and such, but I'm pretty sure he did. He said that he found no difference in the potency. I wish I could remember better...damn cannabis!

That little ditty about brain cells being linked to hair growth/length...that explains a lot about my cognitive abilities as I have aged....I thought I was getting hit with early alzheimers....it was just me going bald!

 

[smokeymacpot]

well since the general method for indoor is 24/0 (some use 20 or 18hrs tho) and when we flip to 12/12 it starts the flowering. wouldnt 12/12 keep it from flowering or extend the veg period beyond your normal 24/0 veg period ?

 

[platinumbuds]

Thanks for this Topic/Thread Hal.

 

[Hal]

Hey Platinum...

No need to thank me....but thanks for the positive vibrations anyway!

Just discovered that individual threads can be searched as well. This method could be put in the same box as the "150 watt club" which is there permanently, and doesn't continually move down the line if it doesn't get any action.

That would work just as well as a sub-forum.

Note: I have 9 babies going now...they are at day 17 (or is it 18?) and one of 'em is showing a couple of hairs. Yee ha! Ain't no biggie, but it's always nice when you see those first girlie traits.

 

[Guest]

Back on OG, in the thread that was devoted to this method, one of the original posters (might have been dude named "atmosphere") tested a plant grown this way against a plant grown normally with a veg period. Can't remember for the life of me how he made it an accurate comparison, with the same genetics and such, but I'm pretty sure he did. He said that he found no difference in the potency. I wish I could remember better...damn cannabis!

yeah the guys handle was atmosphere1, it was his thread that got me thinking about this method, which i now deem to be superior to any other method of indoor growing in sooo many ways.

 

[pieceofmyheart]

I would find it interesting to read about this, I always like to hear about different grow techniques. Seems pothead/growers are very creative with their grows.

I have talked with members in chat who have grown this way, you may be surprised how many people have done it.



Oh, BTW....Welcome to IC Hal

 

[alphacat]

I'm by no means a botanist, biochemist, or anything remotely close (so pardon if this is a dumb question), but is it possible that the quality of light used is one of the main factors in making this more or less successful? I.e. seedlings might have a higher sensitivity/responsiveness to certain frequencies, colors, or combinations of lights? Just for example, 12/12 with the first part lit by cool (veg-type) blue light and then a switch to a redder light after a few weeks?

 

[stretchpuppy]

Compared to clones with a 3 week veg. Same cab, same light, same medium and nutes. Still came out less than 80 days....

 

[stikky budz]

..... wouldnt 12/12 keep it from flowering or extend the veg period beyond your normal 24/0 veg period ?

Quite the opposite smokey.
The first week of 12/12 after germination from seed probably doesnt make much difference to anything either way actually, but sex will show in the 3rd week of growth ( pretty much guaranteed ).

It was fun to try once... gimmicky though.

Strangest thing to see a 3 inch tall plant showing sex (lady ) after 17 days from seed ~ very gimmicky..lol