New grow process?/What to call it?

[Terramoto]

I'll take a closer look at those nutes, but they should work fine for you. It there's lots of chemical salts in there, you can do a week to 10 days of plain water flushing at the end. Or, instead, you can feed the (pre-digested) pure organic stuff that you have in mind so that the plant doesn't starve. You'll be fine.

P.S. If you do use those products and if they do contain synthetics... and, if then you add organics on top... you'll be doing a hybrid grow just like most of us! Stick around here and let us know how your adventure goes.



The party's only just started, my man. Keep the questions and input flowin'.

thanks man, im gonna try get more info on the nutes and if they're OK im gonna do just that using them and add some organic nutes. thanks all for the good info!!

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Example: Calcium Carbonate is commonly sold as chicken scratch supplement, AKA crushed Oyster shells.

Rednick

I use as part of my 'lime' regimen oyster shell powder from Pacific Pearl Oyster. I think it's a very good product.

My 'lime mix' is equal parts of gypsum (for the sulphur deal), dolomite (for the calcium and magnesium) and oyster shell powder (immediate calcium carbonate).

CC

 

[Stoned Crow]

LOL - sometimes things really are this simple!

One of my favorite pastimes is to figure out how to 'back engineer' grow-store bunk but Humboldt County's Own is just way too simple. Anyone can do it.

Trust me.

CC

I hear ya, it's fun to get to the bottom of all the hype...which usually turns into disappointment. It's like my Momma taught me when I was Baby StonedCrow (StonedChick)...Mother Nature knows best......SC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I hear ya, it's fun to get to the bottom of all the hype...which usually turns into disappointment. It's like my Momma taught me when I was Baby StonedCrow (StonedChick)...Mother Nature knows best......SC

Yeah - just how many ways can someone configure 'Soluble Potash' anyway?

Can you say 'langbeinite' 3 times and click your heals together?

LMAO

CC

 

[generalgrievous]

24 hours later..... some # plug-ins

24 hours later..... some # plug-ins

1 gl. r/o
ppm 0, ph 6.3
1 cup EWC
270 ppm, ph 6.0
1 tsp. alaska fish fert's 5-1-1
460 ppm, ph 5.1
1 tsp. fox farm peace of mind all purpose dry fert 5-5-5
was vaping kandy kush n forgot to write this down on the dry erase...
1 tsp. soil secrets earth ambrosia (cultured humus, specified soil micro-organisms, water)
1 tsp. soil secrets earth nectar (bacterial dominated compost,fungal dominated compost, whole seaweed, extract of sea weed, ewc, fulvic acid and cultured humus)
these 2 were added together and for the next 8 hours the ppm count was climbing
1 tsp. unsulfered bs molasses 1-0-5
830 ppm, ph 7.2

assembled this tea over the last 24 hours..... thought i had the peace of mind, i used fox farm happy frog all purpose fert 5-5-5... sounds like the same thing to me....

added an ingredient every 8 hours or so checking the ppm count and ph constantly to satisfy my obsession ....

i was also checking for foam ... didn't get any at all till the bs molasses... now i have plenty.

this is the PBP hydrogarden formula's lowest recommended #'s.... cut in half.....
2 gl. tap
340 ppm, ph 8.5... my tap recently spiked 70 ppm and 1.5 ph, not sure what that is but determined to use it anyways
2 tsp.liquid karma
470 ppm, ph 7.8
2 tsp. aqua shield
470 ppm, ph 7.9
2 tsp. PBP grow
820 ppm, ph 7.2

i'm sure the final ppm and ph of the tea will change in the next 24 hours before it gets added to the 2 gl. nutes, but at this point i find it interesting that the ppm count and ph of the tea and nutes are identical

Btw, when we discuss ppm we should note whether we're using the 500 or 700 scale. Or, just report EC because that's standardized for everybody.)

this is from the back of my meter case.... TDS factor...0.40 to 1.0... i'm guessing my meter is 400 scale. this makes sense cuz i recently calibrated it for the first time using milwaukee 1500 ppm solution and it was reading exactly 20% low.

i calibrated it to 1500 ppm.... with milwaukee test solution....now i'm confused..... did i calibrate it to 500 scale...? gonna order some oakton test solution right now...

someone dumb down the EC/tds conversion formula for me please... if my meter converts at a certain % and i calibrated it wrong, my readings will be skewed across the board... i guess it's all relative till i wanna compare to #'s that aren't mine....

 

[pray4pistils]

Geez C.C., you just shit-canned 11 pages..........SC

Uh... I only mentioned Bushmaster on page 11. It has nothing to do with anything else that's been gone over. In this thread we have been discussing strategically mixing synthetics with organics to realize specific advantages. If you'd like to challenge the concept's validity, go right ahead. Just don't confuse Coot's light-hearted criticism of this particular product with an indictment of the underlying science and processes discussed in this thread. Coot understands what we're doing, why, and how although he's a pure organic grower.

LOL - read labels! This stuff isn't worth diddly-squat and I can prove it!!!!!! Damn! I thought we were making progress!! LOL Seriously - I read labels and this stuff is kiddy-toys - I ain't joking!

I read it! I read it! I already have it on the shelf! Vertical growth has stopped! Is it a coincidence? I dunno! Tell us why it's completely ineffective if you feel it's so! It's all good! Lol! Man, your passion about quirky side topics is delightfully amusing. Fight the power!!!

assembled this tea over the last 24 hours..... thought i had the peace of mind

Mmmmm.... you don't have peace of mind now? What's troubling you?

i was also checking for foam ... didn't get any at all till the bs molasses... now i have plenty.

Consider that the foam only indicates that specific microbes are active processing certain foods. Change up the roster of microbes or the foods or the environmental variables and you may get more or less or no foam at all. When you make everything hospitable for the beneficial microorganisms, though, you can trust that the foam is, indeed, a positive indicator. Or, at least, that's my non-peer reviewed opinion based on lots of first-hand experience and research, anyway.

i'm sure the final ppm and ph of the tea will change in the next 24 hours before it gets added to the 2 gl. nutes, but at this point i find it interesting that the ppm count and ph of the tea and nutes are identical

Remember first of all that organics contain salts, too. However, they're typically lower than synthetics. (See my post on a previous page about organic salt indexing.) So, your organics at "X" ppm may end up being much more powerful than a conventional synthetics-only batch at "X" ppm. That's half the point with the HyNT method! You can run more nutes without fear of an overdose.

Secondly, you may get a lower ppm when the microherd eats the organic foods and holds them in their little tummies. Later, you may see a surge in ppm when those microbes are eaten and any waste compounds are released back into the environment. Concentration measurements will often reveal "pulses" in concentration as the microherd does its feed/release thing. For sure, though, if you start with low-ppm organics and end up with higher ppm, it's because the foods have been pre-digested and converted to ionic salts which the plants can directly absorb. (The pre-digestion bit is significant. If you add a non-"finished" tea to your rez, you may see the ppm creep higher than you originally planned.)

Last night I added a double dose of organics (pH 5.8) to my synthetics-only rez. Previous to that addition my pH was at 5.8 and salts concentration was 1100ppm/ 1.37 EC. The pH stayed at 5.8 and ppm dropped slightly (because the organics were somewhere down in the 420ppm range). Then, I added more FloraNova to bring my ppm back up to 1100/ 1.57 EC. This morning I went in there and did another test. The concentration didn't changed at all but pH shot all the way up to 6.9 (higher than my tap water which is 6.5)! Foam was boiling over in my rez. These organics are seriously active even with fairly strong synthetic concentration!

someone dumb down the EC/tds conversion formula for me please...

It's actually quite simple. These devices measure EC. Period. Then, there's a conversion factor to turn the number into ppm. A 1.0 ppm is converted to a 500ppm on the 500 scale and a 700ppm on the 700 scale. So, a 1500ppm on the 500 scale = 3.0 EC. Or, a 350ppm on the 700 scale = 0.5 EC. I usually quote both EC and ppm to make things easily understood and suggest that we all do so for uniformity.

 

[generalgrievous]

in that case my meter reads at 400.... and all my #' are 20% high.... no matter, just ordered the correct calibration solution for this one and purchased an ec meter as well.....

i do like toys and gadgets....

pistils..... when you ph your combined brew, do you do it all at once or in smaller increments.... i've only had to go up lately and have been using EJ crystals... they're great.

now i gotta go down and only have techna flora liquid... i hate it...whats this stuff gonna do to the micro-dudes...

piss 'em off i'm sure.... hopefully not kill anybody.

 

[pray4pistils]

i do like toys and gadgets....

Hehe. I do, too. That's what's so boring about soil. There's no gadgets. Then again, that's what the dirt dudes say is great about it. Thus, I suppose that we're all equally wacky. Some are just more equal than others.

pistils..... when you ph your combined brew, do you do it all at once or in smaller increments.... i've only had to go up lately and have been using EJ crystals... they're great.

Mmmm... I keep adding ingredients over the 12 - 36 hour brew period (longer for a greater diversity of foods) and pH/measure salts concentration each time just to keep track of things and to recognize trends. When done I confirm that everything looks and smells great, filter the stuff to remove pump-clogging particles, and then pour it all in. Then, I gauge the effects on the rez with regards to pH and ppm/EC.

If the total ppm is lower than I want, I add more synthetic nutes to reach "my number". This lowers the pH, of course. That's typically fine because my pH is almost always higher than desired without a fairly strong salts concentration. Last night with a half-filled rez (1/5 organic + 4/5 synthetics) I saw that I had a 5.7pH at only 800ppm. I was shooting for 1120. Adding more salts would have raised my ppm but the pH would have dropped too far. So, I waited until this morning to add my latest batch of organic soup (which almost always raises pH). However, I took a measurement before adding the new stuff and realized that pH had climbed from last night's 5.7 to something nuts like 6.9!!! That was the organics running buck wild. (The plain water pH was 6.5 just hours before.)

now i gotta go down and only have techna flora liquid... i hate it...whats this stuff gonna do to the micro-dudes...

Get very used to this situation after a rez change out and keep an eye on things. I've found that the organics are not fully digested within the time it takes to prepare a batch of tea. Thus it'll often kick into high gear in the reservoir (yes, even with lots of synthetics in the mix). This is exactly where I was at 7:30am this morning. More often than not it's a challenge to keep the pH down within normal hydro range (~5.6 - 6.2). Btw, if you EVER see the pH nosedive it's almost a certainty that your brew has gone anerobic. BAD! Aside from the pH pen, your nose will know exactly when/if that happens. Believe me!

The big question is how much we need to stick to the conventional numbers. In a full organic soil grow pH isn't nearly as critical. But, this is a hybrid hydro technique. So, until we determine optimal settings (assuming that they'd be any different than full "chem" growing), I'd stick to the current practice of adding minimal amounts of phosphoric acid to achieve nothing higher than a 6.1. With that said my plants have shown no stress at all even when they hit pH's like 6.5 for several hours. On average, I'd say that it's easiest for me to stabilize between 5.9 and 6.1 after several days of rez use.

now i gotta go down and only have techna flora liquid... i hate it...whats this stuff gonna do to the micro-dudes... piss 'em off i'm sure.... hopefully not kill anybody.

I have no first-hand experience with that product. However, I do know that TechnaFlora's pH down is nitric acid (which is different than the AN's phosphoric acid that I use). Here's some info from the TechnaFlora site that might be worth looking at.

 

[Balazar]

I just spent a lot of time catching up on this thread. Does anyone make a different tea for folier spray vs what they put in the res?

 

[pray4pistils]

I dunno what the other guys do, but I usually scoop right out of my rez (i.e. both organics + synthetics), dilute to 1/4 strength and then spray away. With the extra tap water included the pH jumps up to about 6.5 and that helps suppress mold. Btw, I tend to do target the bottom 2/3 of the plant. That's to avoid light burning when the HIDs are on and also to make sure that immobile nutrients are replaced. I'm assuming that this second maneuver actually works in the way that I figure it does.

 

[Balazar]

Ok a few more tea questions:

a.) Do you folier spray the tea in flower?

b.) have you put any synthetics in the tea brew?

c.) I have heard of the use of "catalyst" instead of basic sugars. WTF is catalyst?

 

[pray4pistils]

Ok a few more tea questions:

a.) Do you folier spray the tea in flower?

I do in early flowering but with caution. Buds will mold easily if the moisture can't escape. That's why it's smart to spray just before lights come on. Make sure air is moving around, too. Not only will it evaporate standing water but it inhibits mold -the main issue.

b.) have you put any synthetics in the tea brew?

Yep, see my previous post. Remember that plants can't absorb raw organic foods. So, synthetics are actually better bets for foliar feeding. A pre-digested batch of organics certainly works, though. That's precisely what a mature hybrid rez will contain (in addition to any synthetics that you run).

c.) I have heard of the use of "catalyst" instead of basic sugars. WTF is catalyst?

A catalyst is a substance that intiates or accelerates a chemical reaction in another substance without the first substance changing its composition. I'm not sure how that applies in your example's context, though.

 

[Greenmopho]

Holy crap, just checked my PMs and followed the link. This thread is friggin long....don't have time to read it all yet, but heres my 2 cents after reading 1 out of 5 pages...

sometimes it hurts the herd sometimes it dont . depends . i have mixed chems and organics for years. hydro and soil

I prefer conventional, but I believe in using a strong backbone of beneficials to strengthen the immune system and help the plants along. In my experience, using GH Flora at less than the full recommended amount does not seem to hamper my microbes. Boosting certain microbes has always been done out of the bottle for me, even if its a bottle of tea I get from someone else. I've used products like Vectra (I think thats what its called, concentrated earthworm casting tea), GH FloraBlend Organic Compost, Molasses, AquaShield (Poultry Compost Tea, source of B. Subtillis), and GH Subcultures.

pray4pistils

Both but with a heavier emphasis on the specific soil mix that I make using a wide range of organic strata - i.e. earthworm castings, thermal compost, Alaska humus (sold under the retail name of 'Denali Gold'), bokashi bran along with minerals (Azomite, soft rock phosophate, Canadian glacial rock dust, New Jersey Green Sand, powdered oyster shells and limestone.

One final thought - there came a time a few months ago when I was gifted with the entire line of GH Organic Hydroponic products (I don't remember the correct name) and there were 8 bottles if I remember correctly. As I perused the labels one thing that struck me was how much carbohydrates (usually molasses but not always) most of these products contained. I'm still scratching my head on that one.

So if a plant naturally grows through the top soil and into a limestone sediment below it, is that calcium considered organic? It is natural, and that and science is more what I'm focusing on, rather than what has what label and certification.

nothing new

botanicare feed schedule for power series is a hybrid synth.organic schedule

works great

I don't think the Botanicare stuff, at least the PBP is truly or organic as in there are live cultures. I'm pretty sure I recall reading that they are cultures that they feed, allow the to produce the necessary nutrients, and then they pasteurize it or something, killing or making dormant all the microbes. So your plant is just feeding on nutrients that microbes have already produced, and some left over dormant bits of microbes. You have to add other things to kind of "wake" the microbes up.

I plan on doing a little project with some of the earthworm castings tea, which has tons of microbes, and just bits of bat guano and seaweed. I do deep water culture (DWC), so I'm looking for a more organic solution that won't get all mucky and hold back my DO levels. GH's organic line smells so gross and totally clogs up my buckets.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I read it! I read it! I already have it on the shelf! Vertical growth has stopped! Is it a coincidence? I dunno! Tell us why it's completely ineffective if you feel it's so! It's all good! Lol! Man, your passion about quirky side topics is delightfully amusing. Fight the power!!!

pray4pistils

First off - I want to thank you again for inviting me to this thread. It's been an interesting read and I look forward to seeing the results of your test/experiment.

Back to 'soluble potash' (i.e. potassium) I would like you to peruse this web site and take a look at the N-P-K numbers on a 'real soluble potash' which IS organic as long as you buy the right product, i.e. non -chlorine versions.

K-Mag is a 'trade name' for this product as is Sul-Po-Mag. The generic name is 'langbenite' which is named for Dr. Langben who discovered this in 1880 or so.

Read the specs and then we can discuss how you, yourself, can create 'Bush Master' for about $.10 per gallon.

HTH

CC

 

[grapeman]

pray4pistils

First off - I want to thank you again for inviting me to this thread. It's been an interesting read and I look forward to seeing the results of your test/experiment.

Back to 'soluble potash' (i.e. potassium) I would like you to peruse this web site and take a look at the N-P-K numbers on a 'real soluble potash' which IS organic as long as you buy the right product, i.e. non -chlorine versions.

K-Mag is a 'trade name' for this product as is Sul-Po-Mag. The generic name is 'langbenite' which is named for Dr. Langben who discovered this in 1880 or so.

Read the specs and then we can discuss how you, yourself, can create 'Bush Master' for about $.10 per gallon.

HTH

CC

So I was on the hunt today for an organic K supplement for my current organic soil grow. Von recommended K-mag but i couldn't find it.

I did find Sul-Po-Mag and bought a small bag. Happy to see your post above after I got home.

My disappointment was when I got home and put some on my tomatos (everything goes on my tomatos first) I found out it was granular. I threw a few teaspoons in a qt. of water and stirred but most of it was not water soluble. I like the fact that it has sulfer, which imo is always good for most soils.

So CC, how do you use it? As a top dressing? Mixed in the soil? Or does it eventually go into solution if you wait long enough?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

So CC, how do you use it? As a top dressing? Mixed in the soil? Or does it eventually go into solution if you wait long enough?

grapeman

I use this product in a couple of different way. First, I add it to my potting soil mix at 1/4 cup for 5 gallons of my potting soil mix.

For making a soil drench mix, I add 1.5 tsp. to a gallon of water and apply to the soil. 1/2 that amount as a foliar application.

HTH

CC

 

[generalgrievous]

potassium silicate.....

coot.... do you use this adjunct in veg or in flower only.... ?

i have some on the way. i'm hoping this will help keep my girls happy in higher temps...
gonna be gnarly this summer in and out. i'm trying to figure out how to dial in my temps inside and gotta run in the high 90's outside.


i added my gallon of tea 1.5 EC, ph 7.6 to my nutes 1.5 EC, ph 8.0

over the last 24 hours the nutes and the tea dropped 70 ppm, they both started at 820 ppm and both ended at 1.5 EC

my combined brew is 1.5 EC at ph 7.7....

i'm feeding young plants and 1.5 seems a bit hot to me.... i may cut the whole thing with r/o back to 1.0.....as far as the ph of 7.7... thats pretty high.....possibly killed the environment i just spent 2 days creating.

the tap i used for the nutes started at 8.5.... it's typically in the range of 7.3.... if i had started there i may have ended up in range or close....now that i've taken note of how each addition to the tea or nutes affects the ph, i will try to keep it dialed into range, or close, as i build the tea. i added my tea the res without PHing the nutes.....

i should have ph'd my nutes before adding the tea .... like i said i probably killed all the micro-dudes with that move.

 

[grapeman]

grapeman

I use this product in a couple of different way. First, I add it to my potting soil mix at 1/4 cup for 5 gallons of my potting soil mix.

For making a soil drench mix, I add 1.5 tsp. to a gallon of water and apply to the soil. 1/2 that amount as a foliar application.

HTH

CC

Does the granular Sul-Po-Mag dissolve in water for you? How long does it take. I stirred for 5 minutes and still had plenty of grains undissolved.

Thanks for your input CC

 

[pray4pistils]

i'm hoping this will help keep my girls happy in higher temps... gonna be gnarly this summer in and out. i'm trying to figure out how to dial in my temps inside and gotta run in the high 90's outside.

I'm just starting to deal with high temperatures now. Instead of a comfy 68degF or so the number is now about 73. So, since I don't have a chiller, I've been dropping frozen 2 liter bottles in there. It works okay but I think a full gallon will be more effective. Anyway, our developing technique here may have to be adjusted for high-temperature use. We may have to dial back the amount of organics. I mean, it's all good so far, but we've got to be vigilant to see what the limits actually are.

over the last 24 hours the nutes and the tea dropped 70 ppm, they both started at 820 ppm and both ended at 1.5 EC

Perfect! Your girls are eating.

as far as the ph of 7.7... thats pretty high.....possibly killed the environment i just spent 2 days creating.

I doubt that the high pH will harm your microherd. Do you have specific reason to believe that it will? Anyway, I fear that it will lock out nutrients that your plant needs. I'd immediately start dropping that down to "normal" range.

the tap i used for the nutes started at 8.5....

Wow, that's seriously alkaline. What's your plain water's ppm/EC?

now that i've taken note of how each addition to the tea or nutes affects the ph, i will try to keep it dialed into range, or close, as i build the tea.

Right, by taking notes you establish trends and can tell when something is "off".

i should have ph'd my nutes before adding the tea .... like i said i probably killed all the micro-dudes with that move.

Is your rez foaming? Btw, what are your water temps? Again, I doubt that the herd is too badly hurt. I also say that you don't need to pH the water before you add the organic tea. However, you do need to pH the rez afterwords.

Yes, watch that plant!

 

[Clackamas Coot]

potassium silicate.....

coot.... do you use this adjunct in veg or in flower only.... ?

Both - 1/2 strength with every watering and applied as a foliar application as an emulsifier and surfactant when applying neem seed oil.

i have some on the way. i'm hoping this will help keep my girls happy in higher temps...

gonna be gnarly this summer in and out. i'm trying to figure out how to dial in my temps inside and gotta run in the high 90's outside.

An old organic farmer's mix for heat stress is barley tea. Simply take a couple of cups of barley (organic of course!! LOL) in 5 gallons of water and let it ferment for a few weeks. Do this outside because it will smell - big time.

Apply 1/4 cup of the fermented tea to 1 gallon of water and spray your plants until the leaves are drooping.

The use of grains in fertilizers is something that both GH and Earth Juice have in some of their products so that might make you feel more comfortable trying out some of these processes.

RE: PH

I'm the wrong guy to ask about PH - it's something that I've never messed but I'm mixing my own soil almost from the ground up so I'm ahead of the game by knowing each and every component in this potting soil mix.

Good luck for the upcoming heat season. We had it last summer - 107F with 85+ humidity. If I wanted to live like that I'd just move to Dallas. Or Biloxi.

LOL

CC