New grow process?/What to call it?

[Clackamas Coot]

Does the granular Sul-Po-Mag dissolve in water for you? How long does it take. I stirred for 5 minutes and still had plenty of grains undissolved.

Thanks for your input CC

grapeman

Both K-Mag and Sul-Po-Mag are brand names for Langbeinite. In the case of Sul-Po-Mag they operate much like the Azomite company.

There is a company/product called Azomite which they sell under their own name. They also license a huge number of other companies to package it under their name like Down-To-Earth and the package has to have the word Azomite on it.

Sul-Po-Mag operates the same way. Your question confused me at first because I was not familiar with the granular form. I looked at K-Mag's website and they have both the granular as well as the powder (100% water soluble). The farm store that I go to carries the K-Mag label and it's only available in the powder form.

If it's pellitized (and not prilled) I'm thinking that you may want to look for the powder form. E. B. Stone has the Sul-Po-Mag brand in their product line. I do not know if it's powder or granular so you might want to fire off an email to find out.

Whatever potash product you may be looking at, the most important thing is that it is Sulfate of Potash Magnesia. Non-organic forms contain high levels of chlorine so that can't be good.

HTH

CC

 

[generalgrievous]

I doubt that the high pH will harm your microherd. Do you have specific reason to believe that it will? Anyway, I fear that it will lock out nutrients that your plant needs. I'd immediately start dropping that down to "normal" range.

'the rev' stated in an article that a ph adjustment of only 1 point will shut down the herd....he is a nazi, and i never believe anything without looking into it myself....

i hand water so the kids don't feed directly out of the rez, which i lowered to a steady 5.9...


Wow, that's seriously alkaline. What's your plain water's ppm/EC?
typically it's 0.675 ec.... that particular day i filled a carboy it was 0.875 ec.... put it to bubble for a day anyways and used it...

i know thats high... i used r/o for my grow thats currently in flower and really want drop the cal-mag+ from my mix.... i want to use my tap.


Right, by taking notes you establish trends and can tell when something is "off".
i'm big on taking evolving notes on dry erase boards and permanent stuff into the ipod....


Is your rez foaming? Btw, what are your water temps? Again, I doubt that the herd is too badly hurt. I also say that you don't need to pH the water before you add the organic tea. However, you do need to pH the rez afterwords.
yes sir my rez is foaming.. not like the tea bucket was but a nice consistent head covering the entire surface...temp stays in the low 70's.....i always PH accordingly before feeding but have never PH'd during mixing nutes, only when done.

i'm looking forward to mixing up the next batch of food stuff.... there's a couple things i will do methodically different..... the main thing being ph adjusting with EJ natural crystals, i can replace so much liquid with just a pinch and it doesn't affect TDS... i like that. now that i kinda know where the ph tends to change i can start in a better spot and build the tea in range....

coot.... thnx for the barley ferment idea... i homebrew, love barley soda... have barley on hand.

bit-o-porn....that bud in the upper right has this nice solid crystal cap....

 

[pray4pistils]

'the rev' stated in an article that a ph adjustment of only 1 point will shut down the herd...

Well, did he mean 1.0 or .1 pH change? That's a ten-fold difference, of course. If he meant the latter then he's off his rocker. I do suspect that a 1.0 drop might be enough to suppress some of the microbial range. It won't necessarily kill them but it'll put some to sleep. At that point what's dormant becomes prey for the active stuff that's happy at the new pH. To an extent this is totally normal and just fine because then the nutrients bound in the prey species may be released into the rez. Generally, though, I go for up to .5 pH adjustments per day.

the main thing being ph adjusting with EJ natural crystals, i can replace so much liquid with just a pinch and it doesn't affect TDS... i like that.

That's citric acid, correct? I've used it, too. I think I determined that it's very powerful with dropping pH but maybe doesn't hold it down as effectively as phosphoric? Is that your experience? It's been too long for me to remember specifically.

typically it's 0.675 ec.... that particular day i filled a carboy it was 0.875 ec.... put it to bubble for a day anyways and used it...

Holy Jeebus. That's crazy high. This is well water? I'd cut that with RO to bring your numbers down to by 2/3 or so. Then, you can eliminate the CalMag and also not crank your alkalinity through the roof when you make tea (since oxygenation exaggerates it).

yes sir my rez is foaming.. not like the tea bucket was but a nice consistent head covering the entire surface...temp stays in the low 70's.....i always PH accordingly before feeding but have never PH'd during mixing nutes, only when done.

Yep, I think everything is healthy. Keep it up!

bit-o-porn....that bud in the upper right has this nice solid crystal cap....

Man, I'm jealous. My girls are only in weak 5 of 9 and 11 (respectively for both strains) and both are known to pack on weight towards the end. Of course, now I've got all this celebrity attention and pressure to demonstrate a superior grow. Man, I gotta produce! Well, at least now I can point to you. What's up with those crispy/upturned tips, though? Did you run into some trouble a short while back? It's like a chapter in a book. On my plants you can see when I applied the Bushmaster. There's one node section that's obviously affected while what's below and just above (4 days later) looks normal.

Moments later: OH, but look at what TND has done! His Kush plants have recovered with use of organic teas. Yay! Good for you, dude.

 

[pray4pistils]

An old organic farmer's mix for heat stress is barley tea.

How does this work bio-chemically-wise, wise one? These 19th Century remedies are most intriguing. Well, that and I'm into jamming as much "organic" into my stuff as I can. It offsets the deep pain and guilt I feel from using limited synthetics.

Hahaha

@allMy rez has been really warm this week (75degF). Frozen 2l bottles have gone in to take the edge off but this is still 7deg warmer than normal. Good news, however, is that even with a double share of organic tea the water's health is excellent. It's bubbling away with nice-airy foam and doesn't smell any different than normal. The pH keeps creeping upwards (rather than downwards -a sure sign of anerobic conditions) and I've dropped about 50ml of AN's phosphoric acid concentrate to keep it in hydro range. Finally, I'd like to think that one precaution that I took has helped matters. That is that I'm running only 25 gallons in the rez right now so that there's more air saturation from the fixed supply of air.

Everything seems fine but I'm happy to see that cool weather is expected for a while. (wiping brow)

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

A 1.0 difference in PH vs a 0.1 difference in PH isn't a 10 fold difference, as PH isn't a linear scale, it's a logarithmic one.

Every 1.0 PH below 7 is 10x more acidic.

6.0 is 10x as acidic as 7.0
5.0 is 10x as acidic as 6.0, and 100x as acidic as 7.0
etc.

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/184ph.html

 

[pray4pistils]

A 1.0 difference in PH vs a 0.1 difference in PH isn't a 10 fold difference, as PH isn't a linear scale, it's a logarithmic one.

 

[generalgrievous]

What's up with those crispy/upturned tips, though? Did you run into some trouble a short while back? It's like a chapter in a book.

at week 4 everything was picture perfect.... i switched from PBP bloom (2-3-5) to EJ bloom (0-3-1) for a no N source of macros.....everything from botanicare smells clean and crisp.... the EJ was like mud, didn't like the smell.... within a week the fan leaves started showing symptoms of every deficiency in my garden saver handbook....extreme lockout.... she obviously didn't like the EJ bloom...did some extreme flushing and switched to PBP soil (1-4-5)..... my fan leaves and some sugar leaf took a beating and kept curling.... i didn't let it bother me too much.... happy to say that bud growth never seemed to slow, and as we near the end... she's still stacking up .... hate to count my chickens before my eggs are hatched, or however that goes.......


ph in the rez has risen from 5.9 to 7.8 and tds from 1.5 to 1.7 ec.... i've been cutting with r/o to < 1.0 ec, and ph'ing back to 5.9 to feed with.... i would like to lock in the rez ph.... or can i expect it to continue to drift upward....?

the solution smells very clean in a slight 'salamandery' way.... not offensive at all....nothing like the heavy fish emulsion smell i started with....


one of the chem d x spacedawg kids thats been feeding on the hybrid solution.....

 

[pray4pistils]

at week 4 everything was picture perfect.... i switched from PBP bloom (2-3-5) to EJ bloom (0-3-1) for a no N source of macros

Just curious... why would you want to cut out all nitrogen? Sure, the requirement drops during bloom but it's always needed. What was the strategy here?

ph in the rez has risen from 5.9 to 7.8 and tds from 1.5 to 1.7 ec.... i've been cutting with r/o to < 1.0 ec, and ph'ing back to 5.9 to feed with.... i would like to lock in the rez ph.... or can i expect it to continue to drift upward....?

In my experience, the first week with a fresh rez is largely about keeping pH lower. It likes to go up, up, up -often higher than the point that plain water started at. I'm not sure if this is because of bicarbonates in my tap water (which is actually very low ppm) or if it's only/mostly due to the microbial action. Oxygenating water with lots of bicarbonates will absolutely make the pH go crazy high, though. That's fact.

the solution smells very clean in a slight 'salamandery' way.... not offensive at all....nothing like the heavy fish emulsion smell i started with...

Yep, your fish ferts are now digested which proves that the microbial population is/was happy doing its thing.

one of the chem d x spacedawg kids thats been feeding on the hybrid solution...

So, this is the first plant that you've done from the beginning with the new method, correct? If so, let's see some regular updates, please. Also, what is your rooting medium? (It looks like coco mixed with perlite.) Finally, what ratio of organics to synthetics do you use? I loosely establish this number by dividing the lower salts concentration number by the higher one. So, right now I'm doing 1120/1400= .80. (That 1120 is what I'm feeding now and 1400 is what I would have been doing with pure synthetics.) I think this number is very important for us to share.

 

[Spl1fftast1ck]

Barley tea!, never would have picked up on that one. Thanks Clackamas. +rep

Question though, would an non-alcoholic beer be about the same? Organic of course and w/ the added benefit, (albeit a small amount) of Co2.

I use seltzer water for different reasons here and there, and during hotter days it smooths out the "edge of leaf curl" associated w/ higher than avg heat and the raised leaf veins of heat stress.

great thread +rep to all whom help make the difference.

 

[TND]

as im sipping on some coffee and smoking on some grape ape this morning I realized that I never replied to your thread P4P doh my high ass! lol

Anyway I followed your instructions pretty much step by step with about the same results the KUSH plants are definitely looking better than they did a week ago the masterkush took a real beating to the point that I was about to say fuck it and chop them but until I saw the new pistils

I also added a cup of tea to the pineapple express these girls are looking good and the trainwreck too

Ive been reading thru the threads and think Im going to add some of that grotek pro silicate in my rez for the trainwreck and my next batch of trees since Im flushing the pineapple now and the kush next week, oh yeah big up to Coot for that info!

so thats it for now here is some eye candy the first 3 are of the kush plants and the last pineapple..

 

[Balazar]

What chems do have an impact on the micro heard? Is there any common hydro additive that kills the bugs?

 

[Rednick]

What chems do have an impact on the micro heard? Is there any common hydro additive that kills the bugs?

Ones that are added tooooooooo strooooong...????

I am still trying to figure out why ADDING CHEMS would kill a MICRO-orgasm....

I would think that maybe, if they have nothing to do, then they die off????

It is a rule to some people, however, but I have yet to see some facts to back it up. Kinda like "Skunk" causing psychosis in England!

Edit: pH and saturation would be my keys to healthy micro-orgasms.

 

[generalgrievous]

Just curious... why would you want to cut out all nitrogen? Sure, the requirement drops during bloom but it's always needed. What was the strategy here?

no strategy or sound reasoning, i think i do things just to see what happens.... in this case,it was a supposed 6 week strain, i prefer late harvest smoke, figured i'd go 7 or 8. gonna be between weeks 10 and 11...



Yep, your fish ferts are now digested which proves that the microbial population is/was happy doing its thing.

what do you think about the rez ec going up....? 1.5 ec to 1.7 ec...

So, this is the first plant that you've done from the beginning with the new method, correct? If so, let's see some regular updates, please.

if you click the blue line of text in my sig...'alphakronics cannabis....' it will take you to my grow diary, i will updating regularly with very detailed, pornofied posts.... as well as plugging the HyNT on a massive scale.... stop by, be great to see you there.... i'm sure you can tell, i will also be plugging in some random pics here...

the ...bog sour bubble... link goes to an album that will soon be a grow diary as well... they will also be feeding with the new method starting in another week or so

Also, what is your rooting medium? (It looks like coco mixed with perlite.)

yes sir, at about 2:1....

Finally, what ratio of organics to synthetics do you use? I loosely establish this number by dividing the lower salts concentration number by the higher one. So, right now I'm doing 1120/1400= .80. (That 1120 is what I'm feeding now and 1400 is what I would have been doing with pure synthetics.) I think this number is very important for us to share.

by pure chance... the PBP hydrogardens lowest #'s cut in half with my tap.... and mother mary's veg tea w/ my soil secrets adjunct in r/o, both stopped dead on at 1.5 ec... so a ratio of 1.0, again by pure chance.... was shooting in the dark as far as ec #'s... for veg at the moment, i'm cutting my HyNS with r/o to < 1 ec.

tonight the rez sits at 1.75 ec, still climbing slowly, and even though i added a shot of 'down' last night... it didn't drop much....ph is 7.1.... wanna lock it in at 5.9, so i will try for 0.5 drop per day till i get there.... what gets fed to the plants of course gets ph'd to 5.9

i imagine your shooting for a specific organic to synthetic ratio and tds count, as your plants feed right out of the rez... what do you feed in veg, early flower, late flower, roughly...? and can that # go way up as the organic / synthetic ratio increases....?





perhaps we can get a mod to change the name of this thread.....

 

[pray4pistils]

Anyway I followed your instructions pretty much step by step with about the same results the KUSH plants are definitely looking better than they did a week ago the masterkush took a real beating to the point that I was about to say fuck it and chop them but until I saw the new pistils

Great job, dude. I'm delighted to read the progress details.

Ive been reading thru the threads and think Im going to add some of that grotek pro silicate in my rez for the trainwreck and my next batch of trees since Im flushing the pineapple now and the kush next week, oh yeah big up to Coot for that info!

+1 for Coot's advice on this stuff. I'm not going to add it to my rez, though, because it seems to jack the pH upwards -the exact opposite direction that I want. I recommend foliar application.

What chems do have an impact on the micro heard? Is there any common hydro additive that kills the bugs?

killer examples:
hydrogen peroxide
chlorine (bleach)
chlorine (in tap water)
chloramine (in tap water)
food preservatives
anti-microbial soaps/cleaners
radically high salts levels
Dutch Master Zone

I am still trying to figure out why ADDING CHEMS would kill a MICRO-orgasm....

It depends on which "chems" are added. Don't forget that organic materials are also chemicals. The organic nazis and their storm troopers confuse this on a constantly annoying basis. They also can't grasp the fact that organic foods can be as salty as synthetics.

I would think that maybe, if they have nothing to do, then they die off???? Edit: pH and saturation would be my keys to healthy micro-orgasms.

All they want to do is eat and reproduce (which doesn't sound like such a bad life, right?!) So long as there's food and the pH, temperature, and dissolved oxygen are within range, the beneficial microbes will flourish.

It is a rule to some people, however, but I have yet to see some facts to back it up. Kinda like "Skunk" causing psychosis in England!

Ding!

what do you think about the rez ec going up....? 1.5 ec to 1.7 ec...

That's what happens as the nitrogen cycle perpetuates. First you'll see EC reductions as the first wave of microbes eats organic foods and bind the stuff within their bodies. Then, they'll excrete what they don't need. This shows up on your meter as measurable salts whereas before it didn't. You'll never know exactly what's going on and why, but the changes signify metabolism and that's what we want!

if you click the blue line of text in my sig...'alphakronics cannabis....' it will take you to my grow diary, i will updating regularly with very detailed, pornofied posts.... as well as plugging the HyNT on a massive scale.... stop by, be great to see you there.... i'm sure you can tell, i will also be plugging in some random pics here..

Perfect! I'll definitely stop by your thread. I saw it before but was bashful about posting when you were singin' the praises. (I hate it when people actively fish for compliments. It's a sign of insecurity.) Hahaha! I love the positivity, though. Let's keep all this goin' strong.

tonight the rez sits at 1.75 ec, still climbing slowly, and even though i added a shot of 'down' last night... it didn't drop much....ph is 7.1.... wanna lock it in at 5.9, so i will try for 0.5 drop per day till i get there.... what gets fed to the plants of course gets ph'd to 5.9

That sounds like perfect cultivation/maintenance practice, General.

i imagine your shooting for a specific organic to synthetic ratio and tds count, as your plants feed right out of the rez... what do you feed in veg, early flower, late flower, roughly...? and can that # go way up as the organic / synthetic ratio increases....?

Ya, right now I'd like to collect info about which ratios folks use with greater or lesser amounts of success. Ultimately we have to look at the plant's general health as the indicator for it. But, we can also try various ratios and analyze lesser indicators like rez foaming, tea aroma, pH and ppm fluctuations (with other variables held steady -all of which are signs of microbial metabolism), etc.

As for ratios, I've been doing about 8:2 (synthetics/organics) in veg and early transition to flowering. That's because the organics crank the pH up big time without the synthetic salts to drop them down into range. So, I just can't run but so much organics at a time. Keep in mind that my tap water pH is 6.5, though. RO water would allow for more organics, I'd suppose. My ladies are only just starting their mid-flowering stage and I've been doing about 7:3.

I haven't decided on anything for peak and ripening stages. However, I'm inclined to use the organics to balance the drop in pH from the higher salts concentrations that will follow. (So, yes we should adjust ratios/ppm as the plants mature.) I think this may be the HyNT's most basic principle. It's all about establishing balance between organics and synthetics. We'll use pH down (primarily) to fine tune and shouldn't need pH up at all when things are running as they should.

On that note, I mentioned previously that I increased the organic content this week and that I'd had some pretty serious rez temps at the same time (not an ideal combo). After 6 days of 75degF temperatures everything is is still fairly happy. My pH dropped down to 5.6 on its own after trying to knock it down all week. I smell just a teeny bit of funk. So, I'll keep an eye on the numbers and my nose on the rez/pots. The plants look totally happy, but they didn't show much signs of stress 3 weeks ago when things really went south either. (That was due to kinked feed lines.) My buddy called my grow tent a "fart factory". The pots reeked!

perhaps we can get a mod to change the name of this thread.....

Can they do that? At this point I'm inclined to call this whole thing "Hybrid Nutrient Technique/HyNT" because that's what I got the most votes for. I'll speak to a mod.

 

[asstastic]

hey p4p lookin good in here i just went dwc so well se how the hynt works on that so thanks and keep up the good work

 

[generalgrievous]

asstastic welcome.... i think DWC and HyNT will be a perfect match.... looking forward to seeing your results.


after posting last night i stuck my nose in my rez to discover a pleasant change... the slight 'salamander' odor is completely gone now and has bean replaced with a very clean 'rootball' odor with a sweet edge, can't put my finger on the 'sweet' part but it reminds me of something edible... i'll get it sooner or later.

#'s for the day.... 1.825 ec .... ph 7.0. disappointed in last nights adjustment.... 1 tenth of point.... ... i keep dumping this ph down in there, at this point, it's whats causing the small rise in tds. i'll have a bottle of EJ down crystals monday, and i'll see if that makes me any happier

I'm inclined to use the organics to balance the drop in pH from the higher salts concentrations that will follow. (So, yes we should adjust ratios/ppm as the plants mature.) I think this may be the HyNT's most basic principle. It's all about establishing balance between organics and synthetics. We'll use pH down (primarily) to fine tune and shouldn't need pH up at all when things are running as they should.

have to agree with you 197% on this.... ph adjusting with these chemical acids is one thing i despise... ph adjusting in general seems to even make me angry.



gonna go off topic here...... take a look at this...

pistils.... any thoughts on this.....? that entity lookin' crystal thing started growing 48 hours after adding humbolt nutes ginormous in place of hydroplex as a bloombooster.... there's a few more pics of that nug, tonight in my white label album.... needless to say the ginormous stays.

this plant was grown with my original synthetic/organic hybrid method.... nutes on weekdays and organic teas on weekends using alternating tea recipes..... once i saw pistils original post here, i knew thats what i was after..... i foresee good things in the future.

 

[Stoned Crow]

Uh... I only mentioned Bushmaster on page 11. It has nothing to do with anything else that's been gone over.

Sorry, I was talking about how you ruined your grow by putting Bushmaster on it.....SC

 

[pray4pistils]

Sorry, I was talking about how you ruined your grow by putting Bushmaster on it.....SC

I dunno where you got that idea. I never stated or implied that there was any damage done. Vertical growth stopped and budset was initiated with the application. The haze-pheno plants did show a lil' bit of stress after application but are trucking along. The Mazar-i-Sharif took it in stride. Everything is fine n' dandy except for my wallet which Coot revealed was unnecessarily lightened.

@everybody: P.S. After several days of mild weather the rez is back to normal pH and scent. The ppm is down by about 300, though, so it's time to replace the brew anyway.

 

[pray4pistils]

the slight 'salamander' odor is completely gone now and has bean replaced with a very clean 'rootball' odor with a sweet edge

Your microbes are working hard converting raw organics to plant food. It's as simple as that. You've got your rig dialed in.

i keep dumping this ph down in there, at this point, it's whats causing the small rise in tds... ph adjusting in general seems to even make me angry.

Doing the pH down thing is annoying but it's probably just part of the process. Have you tried running more RO to see if it stays lower without as much intervention?

pistils.... any thoughts on this.....? that entity lookin' crystal thing started growing 48 hours after adding humbolt nutes ginormous in place of hydroplex as a bloombooster....

My thought is "GREAT!" I've never seen a trichome concentration like that after a single additive application. I wonder if Coot has the low down on what that stuff is and how to replicate the formula on the cheap. Let us know if you do, Coot!

needless to say the ginormous stays... this plant was grown with my original synthetic/organic hybrid method.... nutes on weekdays and organic teas on weekends using alternating tea recipes.....

Right on. My hunch is that the HyNT method will work better because of the extended brewing time which makes the nutrients more available to the plant. The alternating synthetic/organic method probably flushes the semi-processed organics away before they're even ready for action. Did you notice any obvious changes when you switched to this thread's process? That is, aside from the Ginormous.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

How does this work bio-chemically-wise, wise one? These 19th Century remedies are most intriguing. Well, that and I'm into jamming as much "organic" into my stuff as I can. It offsets the deep pain and guilt I feel from using limited synthetics.

Hahaha

pray4pistils

Barley (in general) contains any number of sugars, hormones, auxins that are helpful for plant vigor. Not unlike alfalfa meal, canola seed meal, et al.

Barley, specifically, contains any number of enzymes that move the photosynthesis process forward which is why barley straw is used in ponds (barley bales) to get rid of algae (i.e. Hygrozyme) and other 'dead' plant material. [cite: Masanobu Fukuoka's The One Straw Revolution]

These enzymes, applied as a foliar application, are helpful for a plant's overall health/vigor as well as facilitating the photosynthesis process = bigger flowers.

HTH

CC