I've got no dog in that hunt but if I did I would realize that without tissue analysis my hypothesis would have little merit.
-
ICMag with help from Phlizon, Landrace Warden and The Vault is running a NEW contest for Christmas! You can check it here. Prizes are: full spectrum led light, seeds & forum premium access. Come join in!
looks like aza/neem is not tested for in Colorado as it is approved for use there.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1upPu4MArl5Wcdy0eOgP7fkgFDTTSmQo0/view
so looking further a field i found this paper: https://cannabissafetyinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/CSI-Pesticides-White-Paper.pdf
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Such a lame response. If anyone would care to contribute something worthwhile, I'll be happy to work with it.
paradoxlost
Member
Such a lame response. If anyone would care to contribute something worthwhile, I'll be happy to work with it.
If I was a mod I'd ban you for trolling. You can't be serious in this thread.
PaullyHighBred
Active member
Such a lame response. If anyone would care to contribute something worthwhile, I'll be happy to work with it.
Lol... Yeah okay... as opposed to someone who seems incapable of contributing anything other obfuscation and endless transparent logical fallacies...
Such a lame response. If anyone would care to contribute something worthwhile, I'll be happy to work with it.
G `day DC aka TCG
In the words of the great Abe Lincoln ;
You can fool some of the people some of the time . You can`t fool all the people all the time .
Thanks for sharin
EB .
CrushnYuba
Well-known member
DC: that's a pretty dick response and i hope people don't dismiss information you bring just because because you were a dick.
All microbe was saying is if you really want people to take your work seriously, the next step is getting tissue samples and doing double blind studies.
At the same time everyone, how many studies have really been done like this on cannabis. We accept alot as fact with just a theory that sounds good, and a few observations and experiences that back it up.
I had CHS symptoms for years, and i never used neem. I know CHS isn't just neem poisoning. Maybe some cases probably are though.
To think you can use neem in any application, at any rate, and at any time is just silly. Aza is a pesticide! There is probably a safe way to use it, but it probably needs to be used more conservatively then it is.
If there is some evidence that aza can be toxic, do we really need to put it in our soil? There are plenty of other amendments that can provide the same NPK at a lower cost. And what does neem meal in your soil kill? It won't kill root aphids. Is it just mostly for gnats? Are gnats that bad and unstoppable? Just proper watering prevents them.
All microbe was saying is if you really want people to take your work seriously, the next step is getting tissue samples and doing double blind studies.
At the same time everyone, how many studies have really been done like this on cannabis. We accept alot as fact with just a theory that sounds good, and a few observations and experiences that back it up.
I had CHS symptoms for years, and i never used neem. I know CHS isn't just neem poisoning. Maybe some cases probably are though.
To think you can use neem in any application, at any rate, and at any time is just silly. Aza is a pesticide! There is probably a safe way to use it, but it probably needs to be used more conservatively then it is.
If there is some evidence that aza can be toxic, do we really need to put it in our soil? There are plenty of other amendments that can provide the same NPK at a lower cost. And what does neem meal in your soil kill? It won't kill root aphids. Is it just mostly for gnats? Are gnats that bad and unstoppable? Just proper watering prevents them.
Shmavis
Being-in-the-world
Hear! Hear!
Logical fallacies abound herein...
This thread:
(We all know who the horse is, right?)
Apologies to the OP.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Both subjects have been endlessly discussed prior. It's already known I don't have access to lab results. It's already known the double blind study I set up did not happen. They're simply being a dick about it, in lieu of adding actual content.
You're completely correct. There are no studies and this community does have a lot of anecdotal science integrated with it.
Indeed, there are straight up cannabinoid CHS sufferers along with CVS sufferers from cancer, gall bladder or other issues. Do you still have CHS issues, or use cannabis?
I would agree with this as well. Considering I've used cannabis only lightly contaminated with neem/aza, and only had mild reactions, I would say it may be possible to use it on mums and clones. I'm actually going to test it for my own use, since I now seem to live where gnats and thrips seem ever present.
I feel the same way with neem as a spray and being an oil. There are cleaner and less expensive choices which do not leave a residue. Other than marketing efforts, why is it used so much?
Personally, I use Bt bits, mosquito dunks type gnat control. I have a lot of plants around the house in soil, and only a few of them are cannabis. lol I've only really used aza for mites.
Drewsif
Member
If CHS comes from smoking too much, and it's Cannabis causing it, why can I vaporize home grown herb all day every day, but vaping some Cannabis from dispensaries causes symptoms ? No smoke involved. Clean bud causes no negatives, dispensary bud does. There's no money in investigating it. Look at tobacco. Full of crap. Secures an "insensitive" customer base. They dont care about those sensitive to contaminants.
I'm not convinced it's azadirachtin specifically, but possibly foreign substances all together. This bud for example causes upset stomach and aching internals: Organic fertilizer, inorganic fertilizer, rosemarin, clove, garlic, lecithin, lauric acid, polyglyceryl oleate, khco3, coriander, canola.
All that on one bud,plus whatever they didn't feel like mentioning (most dispensaries list nothing, the law isn't enforced in AZ) If you have to use all this oily crap on your buds you shouldn't be growing, period. Lots of dispensaries smelling like a pizza crust and coating your lungs like the inside of a kitchen vent hood. On principal alone relying on neem products shows a lack of skill, if you're skilled don't use it. Prove your skill, or admit you're over your head and need to go back to 3 plants in you closet. "Oh we don't use pesticides, just neem oil and BT and milk and garlic and essential oils and nicotine"
Shouldn't be nothing in your bud but bud. How can anyone argue against that?
I'm not convinced it's azadirachtin specifically, but possibly foreign substances all together. This bud for example causes upset stomach and aching internals: Organic fertilizer, inorganic fertilizer, rosemarin, clove, garlic, lecithin, lauric acid, polyglyceryl oleate, khco3, coriander, canola.
All that on one bud,plus whatever they didn't feel like mentioning (most dispensaries list nothing, the law isn't enforced in AZ) If you have to use all this oily crap on your buds you shouldn't be growing, period. Lots of dispensaries smelling like a pizza crust and coating your lungs like the inside of a kitchen vent hood. On principal alone relying on neem products shows a lack of skill, if you're skilled don't use it. Prove your skill, or admit you're over your head and need to go back to 3 plants in you closet. "Oh we don't use pesticides, just neem oil and BT and milk and garlic and essential oils and nicotine"
Shouldn't be nothing in your bud but bud. How can anyone argue against that?
With any product there's always possibility of sales/marketing. Instead of benefits or harm/risk it's a sales pitch. Environmental control (pests) without the harmful/expensive chemicals might be more difficult for some. Try to use physical means swept floor, grow tent, intake filter so you aren't letting any bugs in. Pests will come from outside but if done properly it isn't necessary to wear a hazmat suit or spray chemicals around every week. Maybe one neem oil dip with an early clone would have less CHS symptoms but if it isn't necessary don't use it. Just natural soap or even a water jet if you have enough time will get rid of most bugs.
paradoxlost
Member
I don't see how using neem can be harmful at all when there is 6,000 years of documented use in India indicating it's one of the most beneficial plants for humanity. I worked for a dispensary grow. The state was appalling at checking. I watched the head grower apply Forbid and Avid, both of which were banned. But since the system was down no one was doing any testing. So they just did it and said fuck it. I don't think you guys realize how shady teh cannabis industry is. Probably just as shady as the tobacco or pharma industries.
Just a small point is that I believe the thread is about neem cake and not oil. Using neem cake in a soil mix does not show a lack of skill. I do agree that much of the dispensary product is inferior.
DC Why don't you have access to lab testing?
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
When the testing was done, lab tests were not available to the general public. Even now there are very few labs which do public testing, I don't even know any by name.
The CHS symptoms during this time pretty much obliterated my ability to make a living, so I wouldn't have been able to afford lab fees anyway.
Was your only way test for or assume the continued presence of 'azo' the effects upon the user?
I apologize if this has been addressed. When I requested the parameters of your trial/study I believe you only posted a brief summary.
If there are details somewhere else please point me in the correct direction.
I apologize if this has been addressed. When I requested the parameters of your trial/study I believe you only posted a brief summary.
If there are details somewhere else please point me in the correct direction.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Correct. I had grown for years previously without changing anything but npk/micros. Anything grown the same way as before didn't cause any problems. I had clean cannabis from a previous run, the test run had treated plants specifically to test the my theory.
Treated plants gave me the same issue as dispensary cannabis and cannabis grown by growers known to be using neem/aza products. Non-treated plants caused me zero CHS symptoms. It was a no-brainer to see I have issues with Aza.
I have continued to use large quantities of cannabis daily, for years afterward. Just as I was able to do so for years before the "aza years" with me.
My apologies, I do not have a formal write up of the testing.
Iman_Iffigai
Member
Don't they have legal labs in Co?...surely they must.
Howdy y'all...I think one thing I haven't seen mentioned is drug interactions. Have you taken this into account Douglas? I presume keeping track of any other medications or supplements people with CHS are taking would help with your investigations...
For instance, I'm on a drug for nerve damage and have been for 4+ years, ok. My Mom was on the exact same shit years ago at about 30% of the dose, her eyes were bugging out of her head nor could she talk. That's called a severe negative reaction, are you implying people can't have the same kind of reaction to cannabinoids? I doubt cannabis is for everyone, how would you think their bodies reject it?
Me and some of my friends smoke pounds and pounds for years now and none of us have ever had this shit, not one, and I'm from cannabis friendly culture...idk
I do love all the data being thrown around,must have takes ages to interpret and compile, it sure is helping me understand the risks.
Howdy y'all...I think one thing I haven't seen mentioned is drug interactions. Have you taken this into account Douglas? I presume keeping track of any other medications or supplements people with CHS are taking would help with your investigations...
For instance, I'm on a drug for nerve damage and have been for 4+ years, ok. My Mom was on the exact same shit years ago at about 30% of the dose, her eyes were bugging out of her head nor could she talk. That's called a severe negative reaction, are you implying people can't have the same kind of reaction to cannabinoids? I doubt cannabis is for everyone, how would you think their bodies reject it?
Me and some of my friends smoke pounds and pounds for years now and none of us have ever had this shit, not one, and I'm from cannabis friendly culture...idk
I do love all the data being thrown around,must have takes ages to interpret and compile, it sure is helping me understand the risks.
paradoxlost
Member
The fact that such a casual and pedantic observation can be equated with a study is beyond me. That proves nothing about aza or neem. Dispensary/commercial growers are notoriously dishonest about their growing methods, testing, tracking, etc. so I wouldn't believe any of the labelling on any of the packaging, soil/pesticide/fertilzer disclosures, etc.
You didn't control for your lifestyle to rule out interactions with cannabis/azadiractin ORdid you even consider that while you were paying attention to cannabis related sources for percieved CHS symptoms that something else completely was making you sick? Considering the fact that I have never heard of CHS from anywhere except this website, I highly doubt that CHS is a real thing. I would more believe that you are a hypochondriac than a CHS sufferrer, but that is not to say anything about anyone else claiming CHS symptoms.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Though I have not checked them all, the ones I have are licensed producers only.
I have, and the only medications I take are cannabis and some tylenol when the pain gets really bad. It's a good question, since many people are on prescription medications. Some prescriptions (I'd have to go back and look) cover up the symptoms of CHS.
