Neem Cake

[ozzieAI]

I think you are forgetting one very important aspect about medicine...

The difference between a medicine and a poison is the dose.

I don't recall who said it but:

Are you even taking that into consideration?
From everything I've read from any of the neem advocates I'd sa that is a big fat NO!

yes i am taking this into consideration... you are speaking without checking your facts...

try this for size: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691500001538

[Azadirachtin, a biopesticide obtained from neem, was subjected to subchronic toxicological testing to document its safety for use as a pesticide. Azadirachtin technical 12% orally administered to male and female rats at doses of 500, 1000 and 1500 mg/kg/day for 90 days did not produce any signs of toxicity, mortality, changes in tissue weight, pathology and serum and blood parameters. It can be suggested that azadirachtin at the highest dose tested is well tolerated by rats of both sexes. The highest dose, 1500 mg/kg, can be used as a basal dose for the determination of the no-observed-effect level (NOEL) of azadirachtin to calculate its safety margin.

your arguments would be much more effective and convincing if you found EVIDENCE...

 

[ozzieAI]

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/che...registration/decision_PC-025006_07-May-12.pdf

Acute and Chronic Dietary Risks for Sensitive Subpopulations Particularly Infants and Children FFDCA section 408 provides that the Agency shall apply an additional tenfold margin of exposure (safety) for infants and children in the case of threshold effects to account for pre- and post-natal toxicity and the completeness of the database unless the Agency determines that a different margin of exposure (safety) will be safe for infants and children. Margins of exposure (safety) are often referred to as uncertainty (safety) factors. In this instance, based on all the available information, the Agency has concluded that there is reasonable certainty that no harm to infants and children or adults will result from the use of Cold Pressed Neem Oil when label instructions are followed.

In March 2012, BPPD reviewed data required to support the addition of a “new use” to the Cold Pressed Neem Oil registration. The “new use” is indoor use for the control of bed bugs. In support of this use, additional mammalian toxicology data/information was submitted to fulfill the biochemical pesticide data requirements of 90-day dermal toxicity and 90-day inhalation toxicity. Product performance (efficacy data) was submitted to support label claims.
Based on the data available to the Agency, it has been determined that no unreasonable adverse effects to the U.S. population and the environment will result from the use of the active ingredient when label instructions are followed and good agricultural practices are employed. Laboratory studies indicate that the active ingredient is not toxic following oral, inhalation or dermal exposure. Cold Pressed Neem Oil and neem extracts are widely used in cosmetics (soap, hair products, hand creams, etc.), traditional folk medicine (acne, fevers, rheumatism, diuretics, inflammations, etc.), as an insect repellent, insecticide, nematicide, fungicide, and as a fertilizer.
There are no reports of adverse effects following human exposure to this biochemical. Moreover, the pesticidal usage of Cold Pressed Neem Oil will not have any harmful environmental effects. Studies indicate that Cold Pressed Neem Oil will not cause adverse effects to mammals, birds, fish and aquatic invertebrates, other non-target insects, or plants.

i can't post the tables that contain the results of this testing, they are at the end of the linked document...

 

[ozzieAI]

The difference between a medicine and a poison is the dose.

i think you mean this: Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy.
Paracelsus

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/paracelsus_300347

 

[Shmavis]

Hi All,

I've read conflicting stuff about Neem and ended up getting some Neem cake.

A quick question when is best to add Neem cake to soils?


Long version...

I run made soils through three stages of composting.

Is it best to but Neem in at the start and let it compost down or during last stage? - this is when i put final amendments in about four weeks before use.

I'm thinking to add the Neem during the final stage, there is about 9 months between stage one and stage three.

Also I presume Neem cake does compost down over six months, is this correct? I don't want to run the risk of overloading.

To be honest I've fought gnats successfully with hypoaspis Miles and Nematodes, but there are expensive and i have difficulty getting them in the mail.

Thanks all.

Hi BG,

If all you're looking to do is combat fungus gnats and are unsure of how to go about using Neem Cake correctly to accomplish that, and would prefer to avoid neem altogether, consider watering on occasion with H2O2. In my early years of growing I used to fight them. Until I started watering with H2O2 every third or so watering. It's the first thing I do if I happen to spot one. Next watering definitely includes it. If you look around online you'll find most recommendations are for, generally, around 1:4 or 1:5 parts H2O2 to water. But I only add a 1/3 of a cup or so per gallon. It's a great biological control.

Good luck!

 

[MJPassion]

None of those studies addresses smoked aza products.


I'm not sure how aza sensitive patients react to skin blots but direct exposure to aza is not the same as exposure to the same while it is burning.


All 3 people that I personally know, that have had CHS diagnosis, have a better day with cannabis NOT grown with Aza products.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I know having some Azamax sprayed on my skin resulted in surprise, no-nausea, zero-warning, projectile vomiting the next day. I was literally in mid sentence and was lucky no one was standing directly in front of me. NEVER had that happen before or since, no change in diet for weeks. I don't remember if I had muscle tension and increased pain from my skeletal issues, but I definitely remember the vomiting.

The CHS I experienced at this particular harvest was the first since a year+ break from depending on California dispensary cannabis.

My reaction to neem cake amended and neem treated cannabis is the same. The differences in reactions comes from all the variables involved. Strength, application method, veg period, flowering period, environment and so much more. Since the body processes it slowly, it builds up over time. People who are sensitive and smoke a lot can get CHS from lightly contaminated cannabis, after a week or so of constant exposure. Say sprayed 2 weeks before flower on a 9 week strain. An amount which has zero symptoms showing for the heavy smoker who's not sensitive. Definitely not showing for the light toker, at a bowl a day or a few bowls/joints a week.

If there wasn't anything to it, the people who 'were' suffering from CHS and are now fine (and still using mass amounts of 'clean' cannabis) are what? Lying to everyone?

 

[CrushnYuba]

I get that smoking bud sprayed with aza in flower may be bad for you. And smoking something is way different then eating it. There is tons of stuff that is safe on vegetables that isn't safe on cannabis. But is there any evidence to support that using neem seed meal in soil would be harmful? Can a plant even take up something oil based with its roots? Im going to lean towards no. Neem seed meal has also had the majority of it's oils pressed from it. Does it actually have enough oils in it, to prevent much other then fungus nats?

 

[DTOM420]

I get that smoking bud sprayed with aza in flower may be bad for you. And smoking something is way different then eating it. There is tons of stuff that is safe on vegetables that isn't safe on cannabis. But is there any evidence to support that using neem seed meal in soil would be harmful? Can a plant even take up something oil based with its roots? Im going to lean towards no. Neem seed meal has also had the majority of it's oils pressed from it. Does it actually have enough oils in it, to prevent much other then fungus nats?

Short answer? NO. There are ZERO accredited scientific double b studies showing a negative effect from growing cannabis is soil that incorporates Neem or karanja or castings made from Neem or karanja or using Neem on cannabis in any way. There is nothing but anecdotal claims by armchair stoner scientists and those “bloggers” that they hang out with. Lol!

If you’ve got negative symptoms from smoking weed it would make sense to me to consider all this and even to experiment with been free cannabis; to see if it alleviates your symptoms. That’s just common sense. Although, there are some other things I’d look at first. But this nonsense of screaming from the rooftops with hyperbolic rhetoric, as if the sky was falling, is just ridiculous. Hey, to each their own. Don’t trust it? Weellllll, DON’T USE IT! It’s a free country. What I take issue with is being TOLD I need to warn people about my best practice growing technique because some folks with weed and a keyboard decided to play doctor and scientist with amateur analysis of anecdotal evidence. I’m not willing to go full-on paranoia because a guy who uses bloggers as evidence or fella who can’t pull up ANY actual scientific data or even find links to anectodal evidence that was cited says it’s so!

If there’s any place on this planet that’s going to JUMP on something to regulate, study and put warning labels on it’s the State of Commufornia! Has never found a substances it didn’t stress out about. I’m surprised there’s enough room to put product names on packaging with all the warning lables. Yet, in the years since legalization California has neither put out a study or a warning on Neem. Especially as it relates to cannabis. Not to mention, NO other state or country has. If it was such a prevalent problem and so well documented by these “bloggers” then why hasn’t anyone used it to get some of the abundant taxpayer grant money? The whole premise doesn’t seem right to me. If we jumped on every theory or claim made on the internet we’d do nothing but chase our tails. That’s why most people wait for real evidence from a scientific source that used an unbiased methodology to determine the truth.

At this point, it’s not the grower that’s responsible for “warning” consumers; but, rather, it’s the responsibility of the consumer to ASK whether Neem was used, IF THEY HAVE A CONCERN! If there were so many people with CHS and Neem was widely believed to be the cause, the market would recognize the need for a niche product that they could charge a premium price for: “Neem-Free Cannabis”

 

[DTOM420]

I get that smoking bud sprayed with aza in flower may be bad for you. And smoking something is way different then eating it. There is tons of stuff that is safe on vegetables that isn't safe on cannabis. But is there any evidence to support that using neem seed meal in soil would be harmful? Can a plant even take up something oil based with its roots? Im going to lean towards no. Neem seed meal has also had the majority of it's oils pressed from it. Does it actually have enough oils in it, to prevent much other then fungus nats?

Yes, a plant could take up an oil-based substance. If microbes can break it down, a plant can take it up. Keep in mind, there are bacteria’s that can eat crude oil. So, chances are, there are soil microbes that will break down oil into components that a plant can take up. Doesn’t mean Neem is bad - just an answer to your question. I’m sure MM can explain way better than I can.

My understanding of Neem in soil is that it’s not just for direct pest management but that it’s a great food for microbial life. A boost in the health and number of beneficial microbes is an indirect form of pest management as well as a source of plant nutrition. There’s some great info on Neem and karanja in the Tad Hussey (KIS Organics) interview with Clackamus Coot. It’s available on Hussey’s YouTube channel.

 

[ozzieAI]

okay lets take a different approach to this argument:

best stats i found come from 2012

In 2012–2013, 9.52% of US adults used marijuana in the past year
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037576/

Population of US in 2012: 314,000,000

Total cannabis users = 29,892,800

Cannabinoid Hyperemesis: A Case Series of 98 Patients
Patients were included if there was a history of recurrent vomiting with no other explanation for symptoms and if cannabis use preceded symptom onset. Of 1571 patients identified, 98 patients (6%) met inclusion criteria.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538402/

Chances of getting CHS is....wait for it...

1 in 305,028

death from:
driving accident = 1 in 77
heart disease = 1 in 4
alcohol or drugs = 1 in 34
firearms = 1 in 77
https://www.cars.com/articles/are-t...rashes-versus-other-fatalities-1420682154567/

so the odds of getting CHS regardless of what is causing it is so ridiculously low yet this is the language getting used:

Do NOT use neem cake.

It still has plenty of azadirachtin in it, which is why it makes a good insecticide amendment. Cannabis + azadirachtin is poison and causes Cannabinoid Hypermesis Syndrome. If you're going to use it, please do not share your cannabis.

so if you are concerned about getting CHS...for goodness sake don't drive a car, drink alcohol or have a poor diet...

i have provide multiple sources for how safe neem is in this thread and we know that not all cases of CHS involve neem...

so why is there so much bad press, fake news around this topic?

 

[paradoxlost]

I know having some Azamax sprayed on my skin resulted in surprise, no-nausea, zero-warning, projectile vomiting the next day. I was literally in mid sentence and was lucky no one was standing directly in front of me. NEVER had that happen before or since, no change in diet for weeks. I don't remember if I had muscle tension and increased pain from my skeletal issues, but I definitely remember the vomiting. View Image

The CHS I experienced at this particular harvest was the first since a year+ break from depending on California dispensary cannabis.

My reaction to neem cake amended and neem treated cannabis is the same. The differences in reactions comes from all the variables involved. Strength, application method, veg period, flowering period, environment and so much more. Since the body processes it slowly, it builds up over time. People who are sensitive and smoke a lot can get CHS from lightly contaminated cannabis, after a week or so of constant exposure. Say sprayed 2 weeks before flower on a 9 week strain. An amount which has zero symptoms showing for the heavy smoker who's not sensitive. Definitely not showing for the light toker, at a bowl a day or a few bowls/joints a week.

If there wasn't anything to it, the people who 'were' suffering from CHS and are now fine (and still using mass amounts of 'clean' cannabis) are what? Lying to everyone?

You are mind manifesting your own sickeness

 

[MJPassion]

The real question is...

HOW THE FUCK DID THE DOCTORS COME UP WITH A DIAGNOSIS WITHOUT A FUCKING CAUSE? They ONLY use a correlation (with cannabis) and don't even look for a cause!

THESE ASS HOLES AREN'T EVEN INTERESTED TO STUDY THE ISSUE!
THEY JUST WANT SOME GOD DAMN MONEY FROM SOME IGNORANT & UNSUSPECTING PATIENTS!

IS IT ANY WONDER Y'ALL CAN"T FIND ANYTHING OFFICIAL?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

The real question is...

HOW THE FUCK DID THE DOCTORS COME UP WITH A DIAGNOSIS WITHOUT A FUCKING CAUSE? They ONLY use a correlation (with cannabis) and don't even look for a cause!

THESE ASS HOLES AREN'T EVEN INTERESTED TO STUDY THE ISSUE!
THEY JUST WANT SOME GOD DAMN MONEY FROM SOME IGNORANT & UNSUSPECTING PATIENTS!

IS IT ANY WONDER Y'ALL CAN"T FIND ANYTHING OFFICIAL?

Yeah... that!

Thank you MJPassion, you have a way of pointing out the obvious everyone is missing.
(You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MJPassion again.)

 

[Microbeman]

Iboto had lived in his village for his entire life. At 95 he was a revered elder. He spoke of times when all elephants had remained as brothers and sisters to the people. They grazed adjacent to the village and many had formed close bonds with individual people.
The people collected their dung which was used in the fireplaces for cooking and warding off chilly mornings.
Then one day many years back white hunters had come, slaughtering the elephants for joy and for their tusks. The elephants in response, had moved to a more distant western forest for grazing and the villagers had to go further to collect the dung. The elephants were no longer friendly towards the people, often charging at them.
Recently some of the children had started becoming sick. They stared off into space, flicked their hands continuously and would not tolerate affection. Some vomited their food.
A young man who was studying to be a shaman stated the cause was the fumes from the dung because the elephants were eating from a different forest. Everyone but Iboto believed this.
Iboto said perhaps some children are born differently because the men no longer travel over 2 mountain ranges to find a wife or perhaps more dung is being burned because the villagers are eating more meat given to them by the white men. Perhaps more dung is being burned by women during the day to fire the distillers to make spirits to sell to the white men. There could be many reasons for this trouble.
It must be studied carefully eliminating each possible cause one by one. Then we ask the questions again seeking any other causes.
This sounded too difficult to the villagers so they believed the up and coming shaman. Some bought dung, certified from Eastern elephants, some traded booze to whites for firewood.
Iboto sighed.

From an old eastern fairy tale

 

[ozzieAI]

The real question is...

HOW THE FUCK DID THE DOCTORS COME UP WITH A DIAGNOSIS WITHOUT A FUCKING CAUSE? They ONLY use a correlation (with cannabis) and don't even look for a cause!

THESE ASS HOLES AREN'T EVEN INTERESTED TO STUDY THE ISSUE!
THEY JUST WANT SOME GOD DAMN MONEY FROM SOME IGNORANT & UNSUSPECTING PATIENTS!

IS IT ANY WONDER Y'ALL CAN"T FIND ANYTHING OFFICIAL?

actually...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4735328/

Cannabis is known to have antiemetic effects, and has been used to relieve nausea and vomiting associated with chemotherapy. The mechanism for this antiemetic effect is unknown, but may be related to cannabinoid receptors exerting a neuromodulatory effect in the brain. The main active chemical of cannabis is delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC).

THC is highly lipophilic and, with chronic use, can accumulate in high concentrations in the body, including in cerebral fat. This can cause severe nausea and vomiting in sensitive patients. THC binds to cannabinoid receptors in the brain, but also to those in the enteric nervous system. Additionally, it slows peristalsis and gastric emptying. Chronic, heavy cannabis use may cause cannabinoid receptors in the gut to override the effect of cannabinoid receptor stimulation in the brain, thereby leading to paradoxical hyperemesis.

Peristalsis: is a series of wave-like muscle contractions that moves food to different processing stations in the digestive tract. The process of peristalsis begins in the esophagus when a bolus of food is swallowed.

 

[aridbud]

ozzie....did the NCBI mention Neem/Azo in their study on cannabis and antemitics? I don't think so.

 

[ozzieAI]

ozzie....did the NCBI mention Neem/Azo in their study on cannabis and antemitics? I don't think so.

no they as far as i am aware are not even investigating it...however neem/aza isn't the only factor causing CHS as you can see there are 2 member contributors to this thread that have CHS without the presence of neem/aza products...

my main concern is people trying to link neem/aza to ALL cases of CHS as well as calling neem poisonous when used correctly. there are thousands of years of prehistorical neem use that didn't lead to the symptoms of CHS. there is also a raft of scientific testing on neem that prove it's safety including inhalation, ingestion and dermal applications that demonstrate no adverse effects as shown in the following links...

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/che...registration/decision_PC-025006_07-May-12.pdf

http://data2.xjlas.ac.cn:81/UploadFiles/sdz/cnki/外文/ELSEVIER/evironmental risk assessment/114.pdf

 

[ozzieAI]

ozzie....did the NCBI mention Neem/Azo in their study on cannabis and antemitics? I don't think so.

no they as far as i am aware are not even investigating it...however neem/aza isn't the only factor causing CHS as you can see there are 2 member contributors to this thread that have CHS without the presence of neem/aza products...

my main concern is people trying to link neem/aza to ALL cases of CHS as well as calling neem poisonous when used correctly. there are thousands of years of prehistorical neem use that didn't lead to the symptoms of CHS. there is also a raft of scientific testing on neem that prove it's safety including inhalation, ingestion and dermal applications that demonstrate no adverse effects as shown in the following links...

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/che...registration/decision_PC-025006_07-May-12.pdf

http://data2.xjlas.ac.cn:81/UploadFiles/sdz/cnki/外文/ELSEVIER/evironmental risk assessment/114.pdf

my previous post shows that there is an explanation for CHS that doesn't include any agents other than cannabinoids and how our body can react to them when used chronically...

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Anyone know the source of information Health Canada used to ban neem for cannabis? The have an awesomely short list of approved pesticides and neem/aza are not on it.

From Health Canada

• Agrotek Ascend Vaporized Sulphur
• Bio-Ceres G WP
• Bioprotec Caf
• Bioprotec Plus
• Botanigard 22 WP
• Botanigard ES
• BW240 WP Biological Fungicide
• Cyclone
• Doktor Doom Formula 420 Professional Use 3-in-1
• Influence LC
• Kopa Insecticidal Soap
• Lacto-San
• MilStop Foliar Fungicide
• Neudosan Commercial
• Opal Insecticidal Soap
• Prestop
• Purespray green spray oil 13E
• Rootshield(R) WP Biological Fungicide
• Rootshield HC Biological Fungicide Wettable Powder
• Rootshield Plus WP Biological Fungicide
• Sirocco
• Vegol Crop Oil

 

[Samuel Caldwell]

From what I can find, neem is not 'banned' in Canada, it's just not 'approved.' Lots of testing involved to get the 'approved' label so lots of cost involved and so far no one has wanted to foot the bill.

Just my quick 'net search but I'm following along closely. I've always used neem, in fact I added a bit of neem seed meal when I mixed up my latest batch of soil. I've never had any issues but I'm always looking to learn and improve.

edit add -

First half of this cbc radio-canada broadcast from 2016 has a Health Canada rep explaining it.