Neem Cake

[wetdog]

wait so if you smoke weed a lot that was grown with neem meal as an amendment then you get sick? I add 1/2 cup per cf, thanks.

IDK about CHS but tend to agree with heatherlonglee's take on it.

However, from sad experience I can tell you that you CAN turn your soil mix toxic from overuse.

This was not overapplication, I never got heavy handed with it, but I did do long term, light top dressings over several seasons as both a IPM and a N source. Like, 1cup/cf in the initial mix (never more than that), and light top dressings once or twice a month during the season, mainly in outdoor no tills.

I was well aware of the warning in the neemresource site about seeds, seedlings, and young plants and neem cake causing problems like, poor germination, deformed growth and such. I was very careful about how much I added. Apparently it also builds up over time and doesn't go away. I also had toxicity issues with soil that had no neem added for OVER a year.

It first showed up in container grown garlic (no till), where the entire crop failed and this was like my eighth year growing garlic. Pepper plants grown later in the same season did fine and no neem was added that season. The next year I again planted garlic in the same no tills figuring the pepper plants would have consumed what neem was in the mix. I was wrong. The crop didn't totally fail, but what did grow was terribly deformed and pretty much useless. Other plants showed issues also which got me to the conclusion that ALL my soil was toxic, pretty much a CY in total. It ranged in age from ~3 years old to ~5 years old.

What a pisser!

Anyway, the good news is, from people who know like Coot, is 1/2cup/cf in the initial mix is plenty for soil pest deterance and well below any toxicity issues. This is all that *I* will be using in the future, along with no additional top dressings.

You should also be fine with your 1/2cup/cf amount.

Wet

 

[CrushnYuba]

I can't tell you about the toxicity of neem, but i can say 100% CHS is real and not just misdiagnosed neem poisoning.
I 100% had CHS and i was not using neem products at all.

 

[BerrySeal]

I don't believe neem makes you sick! I use Neem and have for many years. The over excessive inhalation of smoke makes you sick.

Some of us live in the 21st century and vaporize. I can vaporize clean weed all day long. FUCK NEEM. The worst weed has the shittiest buzz. Everyone can agree on that. And it ALWAYS smells like neem. Its a god damned epidemic. I dont know or care how they are using it, it's one of the main reasons I cant smoke the garbage grown for pot stores. When you smell the shit and feel like shit. You put two and two together. Most yall pig lunged donkey brains getting high off smoke deprivation probably can't tell side effect from effect. The only thing worse than neem is hydro nutes. Shouldn't have to get sick to get high. But it kills the high is first thing a perceptive human being notices. Maybe everyones mistaking getting sick for getting high. Maybe that's why professional pot veterans still smoke out of plastic and aluminum pipes and die of cancer in their 50s. Like I said all the donkey brained Americans will smoke rolled up cow shit and talk about how "fuct up" they got. I saw it first hand in my youth. I only wish my reality was that flexible at the will of others. Would make life easy, for things to exist and not exist depending on what they are told and by whom. Now I guess these braindead people grow and judge Cannabis cups professionally. Same people who can't feel Sativas. Cuz they're already fuct in the head,getting high off neem for decades.

I've sold alot of dank ass weed that veteran tokers poopooed because of their mood or what other drugs they were on. I know the average American and their flexible reality. I know the "my customers say" explanations. Fuck the average persons opinion. Now I'm realizing way more people in the pot realm are 'average' than I thought. I thought most pot growers were different. Nope just dumbasses affected by mood and marketing just like those idiots standing in line at the Supreme store to get a red crowbar and some numchucks with a sticker on em. (Then off to jungle boys for some moldy unflushed grodan garbage!)

ANYWAYS... Name one other crop that you vaporize into the lungs. Tobacco? Can you name a second? Do they use neem on tobacco? I won't let that azadirachtin shit anywhere near me on principal alone. Grow some quality weed and you don't need to lace the shit with "organic"
pesticides.

I swear if people can't grasp the difference between Cannabis and tomatoes in both the ways they hold on to contaminants and the way they are consumed.. Just give up.. Kill yourselves. Strengthen the gene pool. Do it for humanity. And I'll tell you why vaporizers aren't popular. Because average people don't even know what getting high is; the dirtier the smoke the more "fuct up" they get. I'm moving to Spain, Americans are getting too fucking retarded. Especially internet pot growers who worship spooks who were in 2 places at once, photoshop Sacred Seeds onto Cultivators Choice packs and argue against concepts backed by science articles they posted themselves.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I can't tell you about the toxicity of neem, but i can say 100% CHS is real and not just misdiagnosed neem poisoning.
I 100% had CHS and i was not using neem products at all.

Ok this I find interesting.


Just for the record, would you please state exactly how your cannabis was grown, the strain, lighting, local air quality & temp/rh, nutrients, any treatments whatsoever, water source (and analysis if possible) background on soil and amendments, if any, and so on.


I've been railing about neem/aza for 7 years now and have yet to find someone with CHS who's 100% neem/aza free. So I'm definitely interested in as much detail as possible. As you're aware it's extremely debilitating, so anything to help prevent it in the future is awesomely helpful.

 

[Microbeman]

That is interesting Wet. I've never used neem cake but always wondered how it both worked as a pesticide and also fed microbes as KIS details.

The CHS thing is new to me. The articles linked to are unfortunately pretty irrational. If this is caused by some form of pesticide uptake, I wonder if spinosad might be another culprit. It causes vomiting in many dogs.

 

[Blu_channel]

Never had a problem with neem cake. I bubble it out for 24 hours in my tea then water my plants in veg as needed. Works great if you go light with it. Pretty simple.

 

[paradoxlost]

I like neem a lot. Neem is a great slow release nitrogen source. Also everytime i top dress with neem a thick layer of fungi starts growing. I believe this is due to the anti bacterial affects of the neem, reducing competition. But it was a huge positive. Karanja did this as well, almost better.



as far as CHS, I don't believe its a thing. I've smoked weed every single day for about 10 years now. Some times up to a quarter a day, along with edibles, concentrates, you name it. I know a lot of people like me. Never encountered it. I've encountered people who don't like it, who thinks it makes their back hurt, pass out, vomit more easily after drinking, etc. But no weird systemic issue.

 

[CrushnYuba]

Ok this I find interesting.


Just for the record, would you please state exactly how your cannabis was grown, the strain, lighting, local air quality & temp/rh, nutrients, any treatments whatsoever, water source (and analysis if possible) background on soil and amendments, if any, and so on.


I've been railing about neem/aza for 7 years now and have yet to find someone with CHS who's 100% neem/aza free. So I'm definitely interested in as much detail as possible. As you're aware it's extremely debilitating, so anything to help prevent it in the future is awesomely helpful.

Saw every specialist and got every test under the Sun.
My style out growing over that time varied pretty drastically. But one thing was constant. I don't ever use neem. Soybean oil and sulfur is mostly what i use. Every year I would smoke outdoor for about 4 months after harvest. Sealed room indoor for 4 months, light depp for 4. Strains varied. My outdoor was always simple organic, allot of chicken manure and dry meals. My light depp was either dry organic meals or sea grow. My indoor was synthetic for a time, and organic meal based for a time. Strains changed.
Never smoked other people's flowers really. Did by edibles from clubs occasionally.
I am confident that my was just from cannabinoid. I bet other people's could be neem related. This is the first i have heard about this neem thing. My buddy has chs symptoms for yeaaaars but refuses to believe in chs. He went for some pretty insane experimental treatments. I'm going to him next time i see him about his neem use and how frequently he smokes other people's ganja.

 

[Lost in a SOG]

In my professional opinion its not the weed causing that syndrome its how your body is responding to it and detoxifying at that time.

I bet you any money if two people smoke some cannabis that makes one sick the other person wont be and that would be the decider for me really. I found that when i was experiencing the same symptom for 3 years, other people were unaffected by the MJ and I only started growing with neem recently. I had a poorer awareness of health at that time.

Im gonna go there and say a lot of us pretty much abuse cannabis as a crutch in an increasingly dystopian existence, im definitely included there. If you go by the mantra of "variety is the spice of life" and do no real work on cleansing our bodies with the plethora of other herbs or having a broader diet or changing anything really about how we got sick in the first place then IME this is how this kind of thing becomes a syndrome, and like most syndromes, a poorly diagnosable one at that. I suspect its to do with the liver in some way or other, possibly a genetic/epigenetic detoxification enzyme deficiency putting pressure on other detox pathways. People forget smoking anything is rough on the kidneys as well and once they start struggling to work the body starts trying to eliminate through the lungs and the best way the body can eliminate that exudate is through emisis. I bet you people with "CHS" have poorly functioning detox pathways.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Saw every specialist and got every test under the Sun.
My style out growing over that time varied pretty drastically. But one thing was constant. I don't ever use neem. Soybean oil and sulfur is mostly what i use. Every year I would smoke outdoor for about 4 months after harvest. Sealed room indoor for 4 months, light depp for 4. Strains varied. My outdoor was always simple organic, allot of chicken manure and dry meals. My light depp was either dry organic meals or sea grow. My indoor was synthetic for a time, and organic meal based for a time. Strains changed.
Never smoked other people's flowers really. Did by edibles from clubs occasionally.
I am confident that my was just from cannabinoid. I bet other people's could be neem related. This is the first i have heard about this neem thing.

And through all this you have had CHS and still have it, yes?
What exactly are the symptoms you experience?

Have you checked the dry organic meals or sea grow for neem meal? What organic meals did you use?
The only constant has been soybean oil and sulfur, Correct?

 

[paradoxlost]

If it's the neem doing it how come there is no other known similar afflictions associated with neem, neem being the oldest known medicinal plant, having a history of use dating back to 6000 B.C. and it is still widely used in India for a cornicopia of uses. So it's a combination of azadiractan and cannabaniods? Well india has been using cannabis as well forever. Neem isn't new, its just new to the United States.

 

[CrushnYuba]

I had symptoms for a few years. I always smoked allot of cannabis, but at the time of chs symptoms, i really consumed a crazy amount. It took some time of that level of consumption before i had symptoms. its the way my body deals with that extreme amount of cannabinoid. I know other people that consume that much and they are fine.
Sea grow its water soluble powder. Neem meal wouldn't dissolve. I also read the ingredients and i have had these long emails with the manufacturer. They are smart guys. They even thought me how to make a fermented blood meal extract to increase the organic n in my solution.

I have never used one of those mixed organic meals. I only use single ingredient. Bone meal, fishbone, precipitated bone, seabird guano, feather, blood, potash, alfalfa. That's about it.

The soybeen was on and off. Sulfur burned out sprayed was pretty consistent.

 

[paradoxlost]

define crazy amounts, cause there were times that i would eat a over 500 mg in edibles and smoke like a quarter a day for like months straight.

 

[PaulieWaulie]

IDK about CHS but tend to agree with heatherlonglee's take on it.

However, from sad experience I can tell you that you CAN turn your soil mix toxic from overuse.

This was not overapplication, I never got heavy handed with it, but I did do long term, light top dressings over several seasons as both a IPM and a N source. Like, 1cup/cf in the initial mix (never more than that), and light top dressings once or twice a month during the season, mainly in outdoor no tills.

I was well aware of the warning in the neemresource site about seeds, seedlings, and young plants and neem cake causing problems like, poor germination, deformed growth and such. I was very careful about how much I added. Apparently it also builds up over time and doesn't go away. I also had toxicity issues with soil that had no neem added for OVER a year.

It first showed up in container grown garlic (no till), where the entire crop failed and this was like my eighth year growing garlic. Pepper plants grown later in the same season did fine and no neem was added that season. The next year I again planted garlic in the same no tills figuring the pepper plants would have consumed what neem was in the mix. I was wrong. The crop didn't totally fail, but what did grow was terribly deformed and pretty much useless. Other plants showed issues also which got me to the conclusion that ALL my soil was toxic, pretty much a CY in total. It ranged in age from ~3 years old to ~5 years old.

What a pisser!

Anyway, the good news is, from people who know like Coot, is 1/2cup/cf in the initial mix is plenty for soil pest deterance and well below any toxicity issues. This is all that *I* will be using in the future, along with no additional top dressings.

You should also be fine with your 1/2cup/cf amount.

Wet

I do 1/2 a cup per cf, but Re-amend that amount every run as well. After a few runs I will cut it down to 1/4 cup. Wonder if this will build up, It seemed like neem was such a key ingredient in organics, everyone was using it and swore by it, then I finally get it shipped in for 100 bucks, and a few months later this thread pops up. what the hell.

 

[CrushnYuba]

What exactly are people using neem meal for? A N source? Fungus nats? I have been growing for a living for some time, and i have never really had a soil bug issue.
How bout just using some diotomacios earth, and letting soil go through good dry out periods ( like you need anyway) and you just substitute feather meal for the neem.

 

[PaulieWaulie]

What exactly are people using neem meal for? A N source? Fungus nats? I have been growing for a living for some time, and i have never really had a soil bug issue.
How bout just using some diotomacios earth, and letting soil go through good dry out periods ( like you need anyway) and you just substitute feather meal for the neem.

I dont care for the pest prevention as fungus gnats have never been an issue for me. the npk is balanced though compared to feather meal is 14-0-0 neem is like 4-2-3 or something around there. also its not an animal byproduct which is a plus, it smells nice and is from india. Many elite organic growers had it it in their recipe so i figured its gotta be good.

I do use de, but not for pest prevention, but silica. 1 cup per cf. Also with organic I thought your not suppose to let your soil dry out. I water mine whenever the top inch has dried. if i dig my finger any further down it will be moist. the bottom usually is still wet at this point, but I have 50% aggregates so good drainage and aeration. I just don't want parts to dry out as the microbial life and roots die when that happens. also when the top gets too dry it becomes hydrophobic which i don't like either as it takes forever to water more slowly and get it wet again, if you water to fast when its like that water just runs down the sides.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I had symptoms for a few years.

What exactly are the symptoms you had?

 

[ozzieAI]

What exactly are people using neem meal for? A N source? Fungus nats? I have been growing for a living for some time, and i have never really had a soil bug issue.
How bout just using some diotomacios earth, and letting soil go through good dry out periods ( like you need anyway) and you just substitute feather meal for the neem.

i use it to prevent Root Aphids (indoors) and termites (outdoors) returning to my grow as well as a nute boost to my soil mix. i find it easier and cheaper to use than neem oil soil drenches.

yes too much can be detrimental to your plants...

it's a pity we can't just discuss neem and it's uses without Dougy C chiming in with his CHS BS every time...i feel sorry for those who do have CHS, but to blame it on neem without any evidence is shortsighted. Neem has been used in agriculture and personal health for 1000's of years and to link it to a very recent occurrence of CHS makes no sense at all.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I'm sure you're screaming "where's my CHS!!??" but I don't read your posts. lol

 

[MJPassion]

i use it to prevent Root Aphids (indoors) and termites (outdoors) returning to my grow as well as a nute boost to my soil mix. i find it easier and cheaper to use than neem oil soil drenches.

yes too much can be detrimental to your plants...

it's a pity we can't just discuss neem and it's uses without Dougy C chiming in with his CHS BS every time...i feel sorry for those who do have CHS, but to blame it on neem without any evidence is shortsighted. Neem has been used in agriculture and personal health for 1000's of years and to link it to a very recent occurrence of CHS makes no sense at all.

Doug has no studies to show you...
Big Fucking deal!


If he wants to take on trying to figure out WHY he was sick and has correlated it with neem... Who are you to question him?
Let him do what he thinks he needs to do!
Maybe something will be figured out because of HIS work.


He's NOT bothering you so why are you making every effort to stop what he is doing?