Mossy's BW: Use the feminine male(s)???

[ChynaRyder]

....I Never said you had to make them....I said you HAD them.
PC AND DW are Both ALF#4 line F3's....(no-non af seen since F1)
(ALF#3 + DC)
(A)fghan (L)ittle (F)u*K......ALF....

Damn, you just made my day I had forgotten what all I had in the gun...Thanks m8

And you Know what AF %'s I have been getting in the crosses out of them...

I sure do, and add to it that she is already primed with the initial LR cross, so should be 100% af in the progeny It seems that my af stable will grow sooner than I intended...I will seek your advice on the male selection when the time comes, but I believe it shall be soon. Matter of fact, I will pull the beans and start em cooking tonight

Great weekend wishes to you, as well

 

[mossy]

:yay: Yeah..you will be pulling your own little ALF#5..

5 X Afghan Dominant..Inc Deep Chunk....


PC..Punk Chunk..is the Only Sati dom..(and only for 2 F's)
She was initially put into roll because of her EXCEPTIONAL aromatic buds.
Not pulled out yet..but I know I'll pick it up @ f3..
and they are at..emmm..f3...

DW..I've said DW..I mean BW..ULTRA INDY
She kicks like a Mule from Drying..she doesn't Need cure.
She picked up colour @ F2..BUT...I would knock it out of her and go with the WHITEST pheno you find.
I THINK that that is where the Treasure is.
F3 too..strong crosses for her best attributes.

She was one of my Favourite Girls of early 2009.
Brilliant Meds.

I'll bring you more info and photos.
Clip and copy any info you want to Save..we may be talking a bit much for On Thread.

and is filling out wonderfully

I can vouch for that...

 

[mossy]

Ha ha..just a thought...
BW is Technicaly a 7 x Afghan dom.


The original F1 Mom was non-af..so she was put back to ALF#3..

ALF#3 X DC X ALF#3....
The bushy one on the far right under the date stamp.

BW...Bud-Wide-der...at f1 af..

Punk Chunk..

 

[ChynaRyder]

to date, the 4 BW girls I have going have a headpiece and overall look more like the pc in the pics...not much without some pics, I know...so damn busy right now that I have not had the time for it. I will put some up this weekend tho...if I can get away from the office for more than a minute.

I did get some pics of the paki last night, but the batteries in my camera died before I could pull em off. I will put them up when I get home, but this girl is insanely vigorous...almost a hybrid type vigor that I was not expecting. Abrading the stems for a sniff gives all sandalwood...

 

[mossy]

so damn busy right now that I have not had the time for it.

Don't fret it...

Plenty time to talk..as and when...
We did a seasons worth of homework on the DC before we made the cross..no hurry at all.

the 4 BW girls I have going have a headpiece and overall look more like the pc in the pics

Ain't it Always the way..
of course..Everything turns up@ F3..so it is no surprise..

Interesting thoughts...I have been considering the Somatization phenomenon....I have not tried it much, but it seems to work when tried, but I cannot generalize to ALL canna...But, it would appear that most canna is programed to hermie when needed...it is a useful tool, and nature always conserves useful tools

Start thinking of it in Sati Doms only..see if we can prove/disprove DJ Shorts homework.

I have not explored this much...so my thinking may be totally flawed...

At least it IS thinking m8..
maybe we can suss this between us..because I haven't seen
too much info on them.

 

[arcticsun]

hey all sorry for the absence in the thread. Kicked off a bit of an inspirational runaround.


Ive found that some of the pehkuruders seems to be male to female hermies. One of the cheese/ssh/pkr males also flipped male to female on me because I gave it too little light and water. I chopped the cheese/ssh/pkr male he was releasing pollen, on the pure pehkuruders however it seems only a single male shoot(banana) has sprouted and its immature, it doesnt release pollen. These hasnt been subjected to the same maltreatment as the other plant.


Ill get some pics up of this phenomenon for you, recharging the battery at the moment. Im thinking the indicas and afghans cannot be immune to hemafrodism, they may have a higher degree of gender specification.


We may have to classify the genotypes according to habitat as sativa doesnt really specify any genotype. Are tropical sativas more or less prone to hemafrodism feks then central asian ones.. etc

 

[arcticsun]

Ok guys im a giant idiot, I just on afterthought realized that the cheese/ssh/pkr male that I chopped was fully auto in the F1 generation and it was also fully reversing from male to female.

In addition to that it was the largest and fastest growing of all the plants in my auto orgy grow, thats over 50 F1 plants, this was the only one that has fully flowered under 24h light.

It suffered some bad conditions for a while, ran almost dry a couple of times, but other plants has had equally bad conditions and not showed this behavior from the same grow.


In short I just killed the perfect subject to study regarding this subject, a super hybridized sativa that autoflowered and male to female hermed fully under 24h light in the F1 generation offspring between an auto and a non auto. Which I just happen to have the complete parent list of back to the landraces used.

l did it just on a whiff of disappointment over finding hermies in this generation, didnt think for a second. Ill snap a picture of the victim for you lol..

I think however I have a pehkuruder that also has male to femaled on me, this pkr has much less developed male shoots tho, hardly visible at all and they are not releasing pollen, they seem to have stopped developing entirely.

Also worth noticing is that I seem to have a high number of males in this generation of the pehkuruders, I suspect several of the females are actually male to females with undeveloped male shoots. They have a undeveloped preflower shoot on the lower nodes that is undefinable whether its male or female, but it looks rather male like.

The female used in this pehkuruder cross was very tall, masculine like one could say, the male was also very tall and stretchy for an autoflower. Both were over 1 meter tall.


I think I shall want to do some crosses with this pehkuruder, just to see what the results are. I have a rather dominant looking true male.

Hope this helps, ill post up pics asap, I have this ultra slow wireless network tho..

peace..

 

[ChynaRyder]

@ Arctic Sun - brilliant m8, brilliant input...tis amazing the knee jerk reaction we all have to KILL THE FREAK !!!!

I would love to see the carcass...


alas, m8, never fear, my freaks are growing along happily, and did not blink at the snow

I got some pics of the freaks before the sun went down today, and will put them up a little later, but i too am a victim of slow connection speeds, so I will leave some pics of the giant paki ryder for now...



She's huge, and the date is planting date...been in 12/12 for about 10 days now...I vegged her so long cause I wanted to know what I had...pulled her slow down from 24/0 to see if she would semi auto and she did not...She has been topped and pruned many times, and I have 6 cuts off her going too...Once I grow her out, and test her Femaleness a bit, sample her wares, if she is worthy I will put her to one of your ALF lines Mossy....ALF #5 here we come.

 

[ChynaRyder]

Im thinking the indicas and afghans cannot be immune to hemafrodism, they may have a higher degree of gender specification.

what is the mechanism for gender specificity???Is it higher/lower hormone/ethylene production....is it greater resistance to the effects of ethylene release....sorta ethylene resistance? I have concluded in my mind, at least for today, at this very moment that is, that all canna is programmed to hermie...it is ubiquitous throughout the genus...controlled in indica varieties, but rampant in satis....but subtle variation in hormone production/expression/susceptibility regulate the the morphology of the flower, and whether or not pollen will be produced...which if true then shoots down my hope for a preponderance of true females from a cross using a reversed male.

We may have to classify the genotypes according to habitat as sativa doesnt really specify any genotype. Are tropical sativas more or less prone to hemafrodism feks then central asian ones.. etc

Curious if a link could be found with population densities and herm traits....those individuals living in more stressfull environments with fewer neighbors with which to mate, would have a herm trait strengthened due to selfing under times of unsuccessful out-crossing....individuals from conducive environments with plenty of mating opportunities would have the trait suppressed by successful out-crossing to many neighbors...climatic conditions in the region of origin could play a role in the number of individuals freely expressing herm traits...

So I did get some pics of the freaks...dont know wtf happened that I cannot post full pics....I used to be able to...guess I am not special enough yet, so bear with the thumbnails...


This one has appeared to have completely reversed...no new production of staminate flowers, only pistilate...


The way it looks, is the structure is all male, but the flowers just happen to be female....the calyxes are spaced and arranged as one would expect to see staminate flowers arranged...



New pistils emerging from the apical meristem...They are just now resuming growth...been outside for about a week, following almost 2 weeks in a rubbermaid with an 8w flouro while I pollen stripped....but this one appears to be resuming growth as a fem alone

But this one appears to be continuing to mix it up....



Bractless pollen sacs forming right in there with the pistlate flowers...in some instances the sacs appearing to emerge from within the calyx....calyxes bearing seed. The sun was going down and the light bad, so I did not get a shot of the heavy trich production on each of the little naked calyxes...

what a fun little puzzle...

 

[arcticsun]

Great post chynaryder.. im baked as fuck as usual, and as usual ill need some time to process hehe..


here are a cpl of pics from the poor victim of my rampage..


..slaughtered..

The top, sorry the debt focus is not sharper, I dont know how to work the debt focus to be honest, im not so clever with this camera.

Lower part of the plant has no female flowers, the top seems to have only female flowers sprouting, im guessing the reversal would have been full if allowed to develop.



I dont know what determines gender specificity, mossy mentioned that all canna herms in under 10h of natural light. Im guessing light plays a certain role in why sativas are more prone to herm.

 

[ChynaRyder]

Another thought on environment and hermie traits that got my ass out of bed this morning, is to look at the moisture of the environment....water, the enemy of pollen....the kush region, dry, dry, dry...a dry, open, windy environment well suited to convey pollen long distances for successful out crossing...tropical regions...wet. wet. wet...dense, wet environments poorly suited to wind borne pollinators (picture the dizzying array of tropical pollinators, moths, bats, hummingirds, insects)....increased propensity for selfing due to difficulties in outcrossing


>>>>further evidence of Artic's theory of a polar expansion of canna, with rudy possibly being the progenitor???? Would not a mechanism of pollination other than wind be present in a population that evolved in a tropical environment? I shall have to read up on the pollination strategies of understory tropical fauna to draw any stronger conclusions...

 

[NHMI]

Wow that is amazing. I had a hermie but never got to see what it did cuz it was when I still lived with my parents and my mom found it and tossed it out the 2nd story window...now that I am married I just have to deal with the wife...lol...

 

[ChynaRyder]

it was when I still lived with my parents and my mom found it and tossed it out the 2nd story window...now that I am married I just have to deal with the wife...lol...

Dude, you made me spit coffee on myself....rotflmfao

 

[vicious bee]

Stick it in some water. Quick. Maybe it will make a little pollen. Wouldn't need much. You posted today may be time.

Great post chynaryder.. im baked as fuck as usual, and as usual ill need some time to process hehe..


here are a cpl of pics from the poor victim of my rampage..


..slaughtered..

The top, sorry the debt focus is not sharper, I dont know how to work the debt focus to be honest, im not so clever with this camera.

Lower part of the plant has no female flowers, the top seems to have only female flowers sprouting, im guessing the reversal would have been full if allowed to develop.



I dont know what determines gender specificity, mossy mentioned that all canna herms in under 10h of natural light. Im guessing light plays a certain role in why sativas are more prone to herm.

 

[arcticsun]

thanks VB, ive got another male to female so i wouldnt use that one i guess..

 

[ChynaRyder]

so, I have been reading this paper several times a day for the last week http://www.rexresearch.com/hhusb/hh4bot.htm#HH45 and i am starting to grasp it a bit...seems there are multiple theories on hemp sexuality, and no real consensus on the mechanisms of intersexuality...but here's what i have gathered so far:

the natural state of canna is dieacious (both sexes on one plant) and only with man's intervention is a moneacious (distinct male and female) state attained...if no intervention by f2 and f3 intersexed individuals will begin to appear. So, we all must be vigilant for hermies, and eliminate them from the line to maintain our distinct males and females.

Now, on the 2 ladyboys in question, here's what I believe the reading says:

there are multiple alleles controling sexuality or should I say expression of sexuality in canna....not just the x and y, but other genes are at work. I believe that the preflowers are an indication of whether the plant is x or y, but the infloresence is not just programed by the x or y chromosome, but also hormones play a role in the structure of the flower...hence, the ladyboys are gentically male, as the preflowers were staminate, But the hormones controling the morphology of the infloresence are reversed, and forcing the production of pistillate flowers, on masculine architecture.

So, my speculation is indeed the pollen from these individuals may have some value...the trait of production of feminizing hormones is of value, and because it is a separate allele, it can be selected for...additional pressure for female flowers is a good thing to me. However, I am only gonna play with these guys outdoors, and isolated from my other breeding projects.

 

[ChynaRyder]

Oh, I forgot to add, one of the freaks is going black

 

[ChynaRyder]

Lil' freak show



its kinda pretty...note the masculine frame and flower arrangement...only the very lowest growing points on this plant are still producing staminate flowers...as if the masculine inducing hormone is from the roots, and it's waning.





it was late, and the sun was going down...this one is the real freak...the calyxes are these big swollen bladder looking things, with pollen sacks spilling out on some...very weird appearance...no hint of color. Hopefully my temps will rise soon and I can push them just a bit. I am pleasantly surprised to see they have survived 28 F nighttime, with not a hint of injury.

Fired up 10 pehkurudur/finx, 10 punk chunk, and 10 sour 60 to begin my outdoor.

 

[arcticsun]

brilliant m8, brilliant input...tis amazing

Thant link on hemafrodism.. fkn awesome bro!!!


As far as the pkr finx are conserned, im expecting there to be herms in that line on the fyi!!


In late flowering the Finx has showed herm tendencies.. It is sad because that particular finx has a fantastic dark color and it goes purple in late flowering. This trait comes from the K2 in it I think. There should be some purple phenos in there, these are normally darker in color from the get-go. Not sure if you will find them in your 10 beans, but lets hope they get the color from the father. The FINX father was a halfling, 33% AF and the pkr girl was 100% af and very feminine. Short and quite bushy.

Both these strains are to some degree intersexed. But there are interesting phenos to select from within the stock if one has time to work out the hermafrodite expressions.

For example the Finx sports a very greasy purple almost black, early pheno which carries the trichome structure and color of the K2 and has semi auto characteristics. It will feks flower on 18/6. This pheno tends to be somewhat lower yielding then its lighter colored siblings however.


Im wondering whether there is a connection between photosynthetic capacity and trichome production. Ive noticed that dark indicas often sport an impressive tricome coverage. Also that these dark girls often do not seem to yield as well as their greener siblings. This dark color I think has to do with the photo synthetic capacity or the photosynthetic process.


Peace bro, that link on intersex traits was fantastic, thanks alot

 

[arcticsun]

there are multiple alleles controling sexuality or should I say expression of sexuality in canna....not just the x and y, but other genes are at work. I believe that the preflowers are an indication of whether the plant is x or y, but the infloresence is not just programed by the x or y chromosome, but also hormones play a role in the structure of the flower...hence, the ladyboys are gentically male, as the preflowers were staminate, But the hormones controling the morphology of the infloresence are reversed, and forcing the production of pistillate flowers, on masculine architecture.

So, my speculation is indeed the pollen from these individuals may have some value...the trait of production of feminizing hormones is of value, and because it is a separate allele, it can be selected for...additional pressure for female flowers is a good thing to me. However, I am only gonna play with these guys outdoors, and isolated from my other breeding projects.

Thank you!!!! This makes sense to me!! A lot of sense! You have given me a foot to stand on in terms of how i should go about working with the pehkuruders!!