MM X 78Thia was never released by Nevil
- Thread starter Thread starter @hempy
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@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
I like the smell of lemon but not a fan of lemon, but I thought it was odd many have come across strong lemon smelling plants, where I have come across zero.
The only thing I can think of is maybe because I grew and grow mostly sativas and heavy sativa hybrids, other than that I honestly don't know.
The only thing I can think of is maybe because I grew and grow mostly sativas and heavy sativa hybrids, other than that I honestly don't know.
Stoneguru
Well-known member
That's to be expected. Even at node 3 ~80 Nevil's haze could be divided by at least 4 distinct Morphological traits with cross over between.
At most there might be 2 or 3 that are almost identical. I expect there will be even more distinct markers as I they progress.
Basically even if a person wanted to select the same Nevil's Haze as he used in Outback or Hempy used they would look quite different.
There are clear differences between the Thai side of Outback and Nevil's Haze.
So far the profile add by the Thai is non descript. The Nevil's side is noticeable with meat and savory on some. Metals, Eucalyptus. Lemon on one. So far if the Thai has a profile it disappears in the Nevil's Haze.
The Trichomes are smaller on Outback than Nevil's Haze as well as more stalkless old world trichomes.
The 3 leaf with leaflet webbing to petiole comes from the Thai side. Never had it on Nev's.
The Thai have a bract sequence of 2 where Nev's tend toward helical and MM will be symmetrical 1:1
Structurally the Thai lended the menorah frame to the ones I grew similar to the males in Hempy's picture here, but more stretch from NH branch length
The top cola of the one one the left was just like the Outback Silk #11. Almost a separate set of branches from the menorah.
Nevs is branchy, but very lateral while the Thai has a distinct menorah when flower early and the top cola almost separate like the male on the left. I couldn't find a better picture, but it's a district characteristic.
I only grew 5 of that particular Outback line and I consider 30 plants the threshold.
It's not singular traits, but the amalgamation of interrelationship that has value for selection along with knowledge of the specific parents used.
Process of elimination is most effective with more data points of which there are plenty.
I haven't studied the Nevil's Haze Hempy selected so I can't offer as much as the Outback which has pictures of the parents.
I can say that Nevil's haze is a huge spread Morphologically so any given selection will change quite a bit.
Dwight and I were going to collab later this year.
Overall the high is what you'd expect and the winners on profile are Nevil's Haze.
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Stoneguru
Well-known member
There is a lot of diversity in haze profiles.
Many were locked out in the '97 Nevil's Haze and the Mango Haze for that matter. Nevil's haze went further into savory and mango into fruit.
While they are good for what they are...every door opened shuts the door on others.
there is a lot more in there. Some of the best are less than 1:100 for sure.
I don't care for the savory meat liver types.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
You haven't grown an F1 Outback have you and as far as I am a wear all you grew was Hybrids of the Outback and at best all I have ever seen you post is a PIC here a PIC of a few plants.
How would you know what my Thai grows like you haven't grown it or has Dwight or any hybrids of it so how would you know what smells it has what traits it has and the waffle your going on about traits is all fiction.
Dwight also doesn't have any hybrids of my Thai.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
What are you talking about Stoney how was the diversity of Haze locked out in the first Nevil's Haze made in 97 for the first time ?
The Mango Haze is a 50% Haze hybrid again have you even grown it to understand the line I have and right now I have 4 plants in flower 2 are at week 17 of flower the other 2 were put into flower a few weeks after, and they are nowhere near finished.
All you do is post up opinion peaces like a critic and act like they're facts, how many documented grows have you done and how many of the lines you put down have you even grown ?
Nevil's Haze used both the HzA and HzC and if you have grown it and grew enough of it you would have seen the ancestral types.
ninox33
Active member
I like your posts @Stoneguru and appreciate your detailed observations you share. I have worked professionally as a botanist and enjoy your descriptions, opens my eyes more when I hang with my girls.
Please excuse Hempy, his digital Tourette’s gets beyond his control at times, as his Yiayia spoilt him too much, he became the human being we all have grown to love.
I agree with your 3rd sentence not from the point of view you expressed but in general cannabis and the tragedy of bag appeal on modern genetics.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
So you're a botanist, care to point out to Stoney why the diversity of Haze was not locked out of Nevil's Haze, since you chimed in ?
I am happy to but since you posted go for it.
ninox33
Active member
No, you’re doing fine, it’s your thread, I’m trying to remain a neutral observer, plus I’m retired. A geneticist would be better.
From my limited understanding, I wouldn’t imagine the diversity of haze would be contained in NH. That’s certainly not reflected in the large NH vegging in my garden, especially when compared to the small OH and A5 specimens in another corner.
From my limited understanding, I wouldn’t imagine the diversity of haze would be contained in NH. That’s certainly not reflected in the large NH vegging in my garden, especially when compared to the small OH and A5 specimens in another corner.
Stoneguru
Well-known member
Before anything else @HEMPY . This can be a breakthrough moment. You can fall into my trusting arms big guy.
In your previous 2 messages you are noticably upset that I would make assertions about a line that I haven't fully experienced.
This is entirely valid position Hempy.
It makes you feel irritated and infringed upon. Who is this pompous arrogant Stoney person who believes his beliefs have greater merit then your own experiences? Who invalidates what you have learned through your own 5 sense, risk and hard work?!
Who is this narcissist who believes he can bend reality by overriding your own experiences and invalidate them through partial understanding and iron assertions?!
Hempy. I don't believe the previous posters just want to target you as a person and I doubt most want your beans. We all have our own projects and goals
I don't see them bickering among each other. I see civil discourse. Comparing notes. A general understanding that as gardeners we are on an experiential journey of life long learning. Differences can add a holesome tension that yields greater understanding for both
"Though I am an old man, I am but a young gardener". Thomas Jefferson
This isn't just the reality of what we discover, but a lesson in how to discover. The open observation, Wonder and posture of a child. This allows us to discover more through flexibility and curiosity. In the end to return to the soil grateful.
I do not dislike you as a person hempy. I don't think those holding you accountable do either. We our community of experientialists.
This is a PH issue. No matter how many nutrient combinations you try people are letting you know that your PH is cutting off absorption.
Adjusting pH will allow growth.
How you feel about me can be your lesson too. Recognizing that icky you have is an energy conduit moving both ways is a key understanding.
Do you want others to feel about you the way you feel about me right now? or do you want them to recognize the value of what you can share of your experiences and insights?
On your other specific points I will answer them in context because it does matter and worth clarifying.
In your previous 2 messages you are noticably upset that I would make assertions about a line that I haven't fully experienced.
This is entirely valid position Hempy.
It makes you feel irritated and infringed upon. Who is this pompous arrogant Stoney person who believes his beliefs have greater merit then your own experiences? Who invalidates what you have learned through your own 5 sense, risk and hard work?!
Who is this narcissist who believes he can bend reality by overriding your own experiences and invalidate them through partial understanding and iron assertions?!
Hempy. I don't believe the previous posters just want to target you as a person and I doubt most want your beans. We all have our own projects and goals
I don't see them bickering among each other. I see civil discourse. Comparing notes. A general understanding that as gardeners we are on an experiential journey of life long learning. Differences can add a holesome tension that yields greater understanding for both
"Though I am an old man, I am but a young gardener". Thomas Jefferson
This isn't just the reality of what we discover, but a lesson in how to discover. The open observation, Wonder and posture of a child. This allows us to discover more through flexibility and curiosity. In the end to return to the soil grateful.
I do not dislike you as a person hempy. I don't think those holding you accountable do either. We our community of experientialists.
This is a PH issue. No matter how many nutrient combinations you try people are letting you know that your PH is cutting off absorption.
Adjusting pH will allow growth.
How you feel about me can be your lesson too. Recognizing that icky you have is an energy conduit moving both ways is a key understanding.
Do you want others to feel about you the way you feel about me right now? or do you want them to recognize the value of what you can share of your experiences and insights?
On your other specific points I will answer them in context because it does matter and worth clarifying.
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@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
What are you on about Stoney my PH is on point after mixing it is between 6 and 6.2 you need to stop looking for excuses to attack me, it's rather bitchy from your end now.
You claimed only a few days back that I was over feeding my plants and that was causing the long flowering, honestly you need to get a grip and focus on your own growing.
Stoneguru
Well-known member
Inbetween the beginning and the light there was haze
Ancestral types/memory, Ghosts (recurrence or former types) and Outliers. These all describe slightly different concepts/occurrences with some overlap.
Starting with what it sounds like you consider Ancestral. fenotrigo long flower types.
There is nothing that specifically links this Morphological trait to metabolic enhancement beyond spacing for full trichome development
However, there is a logic or reason based case for Latent genetic novelty within this trait/adaptation as well as some other novel adaptations.
The fenotrigo trait is found in multiple different regional landraces. Theoretically a fenotrigo/long flower trait has a longer window to receive pollen outside of the main cultivated crop or wild plot.
This could act as a catch all for other outliers of the population. This isn't to say good or bad, but rather a lifeline of a highly adaptive species.
Another equivalent adaptation is common in my Alpine lines.
Any stalk or branch within ~3-5" of the soil grows roots. This isn't environmental. All the other Haze hybrids and landraces in the same environment do not have this to the same extent.
In a wild setting this type of plant could continually break, fall and reroot sending trailers out for multiple generations and many pollen donors over a larger window.
Generally my lesson in breeding has been both tension and balance.
I have found Fenotrigo/ancestral long flower types in Nevil's and landraces.
Based on the above theories i would incorporate a male into breeding, but not exclusively as this would be imbalanced and potentially miss the mark through an exaggerated expectation and potentially diminish the desirable characteristics that the line was selected and developed to be.
A little can be great. To much. You lose it.
I would select a male over a female not because I believe it has a specific genetic memory that a female does not.
The difference between male and female is hormonal. Rather. I would use it among the Other Select males for the practicality of even or ratioed distribution.
If I selected a female with this trait I would likely do isolations on each branch from the selected males.
This is the logic and reason basis for Fenotrigo, but beyond the catch all of outliers in a wild setting there is no intrinsic value that I can think of.
Ghosts or recombinant traits that cause the parental lines to become recessed and present the likeness of a grandparent or great grandparent are fascinating. These are outliers, but an outlier isn't necessarily a ghost. The are a result of rate recombinant recessive traits that become dominant rather than the fenotrigo or terrestrial roots which and adaptation traits.
This gets into the non-linear theories of breeding backwards. Just as potentials can be locked out in 1:1 parenting, this could theoretically be done in reverse.
The lockout of 1:1 such as Nevil Haze or any other line is the natural process of selection itself. Cause and effect.
Haze has a multitude of very different keeper types. While Nevil's haze did blend many together in a soup, it is a soup. Not the isolations of ingredients.
Some types of combination become very dominant. Particularly on the subject of profiles. By comparison it is easier to find the novel haze effects than the novel haze profiles.
Pouring the soup back and forth through Fgen and serving up many cups Some will have more carrot or celery etc.
In time with large populations, multiple generations and selective breeding practices isolations of haze can be found and from these isolations much more is possible.
Hopefully that answers most of your questions..
And yes. I have a great deal of experiences and still learning. I have systems, protocols, goals that have developed along side my theories which I then implement.
I adapt and learn and while some theories have been wrong they add to the context and ability to see through multiple facets and not observe just windows, but prism.
see past the matrix of specific details into the holistic system dynamics of adaptations themselves while still accounting for the details.
Playing off the rebound of adaption May lead to more predictively accurate outcomes and possibilities.
Complexity science isn't more complicated. It's a means by which to comprehend complexity.
Anyway. I also don't know anything. I wonder, I do and then I observe.
Ancestral types/memory, Ghosts (recurrence or former types) and Outliers. These all describe slightly different concepts/occurrences with some overlap.
Starting with what it sounds like you consider Ancestral. fenotrigo long flower types.
There is nothing that specifically links this Morphological trait to metabolic enhancement beyond spacing for full trichome development
However, there is a logic or reason based case for Latent genetic novelty within this trait/adaptation as well as some other novel adaptations.
The fenotrigo trait is found in multiple different regional landraces. Theoretically a fenotrigo/long flower trait has a longer window to receive pollen outside of the main cultivated crop or wild plot.
This could act as a catch all for other outliers of the population. This isn't to say good or bad, but rather a lifeline of a highly adaptive species.
Another equivalent adaptation is common in my Alpine lines.
Any stalk or branch within ~3-5" of the soil grows roots. This isn't environmental. All the other Haze hybrids and landraces in the same environment do not have this to the same extent.
In a wild setting this type of plant could continually break, fall and reroot sending trailers out for multiple generations and many pollen donors over a larger window.
Generally my lesson in breeding has been both tension and balance.
I have found Fenotrigo/ancestral long flower types in Nevil's and landraces.
Based on the above theories i would incorporate a male into breeding, but not exclusively as this would be imbalanced and potentially miss the mark through an exaggerated expectation and potentially diminish the desirable characteristics that the line was selected and developed to be.
A little can be great. To much. You lose it.
I would select a male over a female not because I believe it has a specific genetic memory that a female does not.
The difference between male and female is hormonal. Rather. I would use it among the Other Select males for the practicality of even or ratioed distribution.
If I selected a female with this trait I would likely do isolations on each branch from the selected males.
This is the logic and reason basis for Fenotrigo, but beyond the catch all of outliers in a wild setting there is no intrinsic value that I can think of.
Ghosts or recombinant traits that cause the parental lines to become recessed and present the likeness of a grandparent or great grandparent are fascinating. These are outliers, but an outlier isn't necessarily a ghost. The are a result of rate recombinant recessive traits that become dominant rather than the fenotrigo or terrestrial roots which and adaptation traits.
This gets into the non-linear theories of breeding backwards. Just as potentials can be locked out in 1:1 parenting, this could theoretically be done in reverse.
The lockout of 1:1 such as Nevil Haze or any other line is the natural process of selection itself. Cause and effect.
Haze has a multitude of very different keeper types. While Nevil's haze did blend many together in a soup, it is a soup. Not the isolations of ingredients.
Some types of combination become very dominant. Particularly on the subject of profiles. By comparison it is easier to find the novel haze effects than the novel haze profiles.
Pouring the soup back and forth through Fgen and serving up many cups Some will have more carrot or celery etc.
In time with large populations, multiple generations and selective breeding practices isolations of haze can be found and from these isolations much more is possible.
Hopefully that answers most of your questions..
And yes. I have a great deal of experiences and still learning. I have systems, protocols, goals that have developed along side my theories which I then implement.
I adapt and learn and while some theories have been wrong they add to the context and ability to see through multiple facets and not observe just windows, but prism.
see past the matrix of specific details into the holistic system dynamics of adaptations themselves while still accounting for the details.
Playing off the rebound of adaption May lead to more predictively accurate outcomes and possibilities.
Complexity science isn't more complicated. It's a means by which to comprehend complexity.
Anyway. I also don't know anything. I wonder, I do and then I observe.
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ninox33
Active member
Interesting and complex StoneGuru, will take some time to absorb.
Where does my crusty bread come in the soup metaphor?
Just kidding.
For anyone in my boat here’s a snippet further (a Google search brought up many foreign language answers I’ve never seen before)
Where does my crusty bread come in the soup metaphor?
Just kidding.
For anyone in my boat here’s a snippet further (a Google search brought up many foreign language answers I’ve never seen before)
Fenotrigo in sativas
I've been trying to do research on colombian and mexican landraces and came across a cool term I'd never heard before-fenotrigo. Genetic calyx foxtail. Its straight translation is wheat. Sure we all like foxtail but it's not just looks. This adaptation by extreme tropical plants as a reaction...
mrnice.nl
Stoneguru
Well-known member
Crusty bread is the holy grail
Stoneguru
Well-known member
In the same way you believe you can differentiate male A and C. Observation of the familiar and deductive processes.
It not perfect and can sometimes be misinterpreted, but generally it is what we all work with
The more variations and higher the plant count the more data points can be plotted.
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@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
This part of the Y chromosome does not recombine sexually with the X chromosome during reproduction — meaning that when a father contributes a Y chromosome to the process of sexual reproduction, most of the genes on that chromosome don’t “mix” with the genes on the X. In genetic terms, they’re passed on asexually. While genetic recombination allows for the expression of diverse traits in offspring, the mostly linear transmission of the Y chromosome isn’t necessarily a bad thing. In fact, that trait has allowed scientists to understand the history of male ancestry.
So again,I ask how was the Haze in NH locked out ?
So again,I ask how was the Haze in NH locked out ?
