MGT builds 6 stacked cabs(planning phase)

[Rocket Soul]

Have not looked into board/strips in a couple of years, but this is first thing I was looking at earlier today. I would need 4 of them for each cab. they rated for up 150w i think, I would have to run them at like half that.

Rspec FR Quantum Board

Ultra High Efficiency LED Boards for DIY. 256pcs Mid power Whites, 12pcs Deep Red

horticulturelightinggroup.com

These seems to be a very good deal right now, they where 26 up until very recently.

Ca; what driver/s for 430w? Is that board or system? If MW, how do you dim your drivers? Those nrs (ppf/w and how you calculate ppfd for op) seem somewhat sloppy tbh.
Id tend to agree on a m2 but 3x3 aint a m2

 

[MedGrowerTom]

90% sure that I want to go with bars/strips instead of quantum boards. Should have a lil less heat, and more even coverage. Looks like final 'outside' dimensions are 32" deep and 40" wide. that comes out to like 8.88sq ft. my ocd may make me make these slightly wider for an even 9 sq feet.....Anyways if I go with strips, my inside space is roughly 30" and strips for me would 12" or 24" . I may go with 12" strips and have a small space between them to make the space on the ends slightly less. I'm on the fence on that, but thats what I'm roughly thinking. May have couple extra strips to turn on/of that are either blue/red to help out during veg/flower. Also on the fence on that. I feel I would regret it if I didn't..Even if it wont make a huge dif.

Currently looking into what strips are avail that are 12" and 24" Somewhat still thinking about just doing 4 of the above quantum boards and call it a day, but I think I would have more even coverage and less heat with the strips.

 

[MedGrowerTom]

Kind of have an idea of what I can fit bar wise for each of 6 main cabs.

if I went with like 5" spacing, I could do 6 bars. i could either do 24" strip each bar, or two 12" strips to make ocd happy for the spacing.

or if i go the other direction, I could do 4 bars, with three 12" strips each.
either way I go, its the same spacing between lights and the same amount of strips(if I go with 12")
I would like to add a couple bars that I could turn on/off during veg/flower,

I have not started to look into those yet, aside from seeing that there were some options.
Still looking for dif sources for strips, some of the ones I remember from before are no longer around.

well, that sums up where we are at on the 6 main cabs

This is exciting, I need to figure sizes for the other sections and get an idea of lights for there as well, then I will start looking at drivers.

 

[Rocket Soul]

Kind of have an idea of what I can fit bar wise for each of 6 main cabs.

if I went with like 5" spacing, I could do 6 bars. i could either do 24" strip each bar, or two 12" strips to make ocd happy for the spacing.

or if i go the other direction, I could do 4 bars, with three 12" strips each.
either way I go, its the same spacing between lights and the same amount of strips(if I go with 12")
I would like to add a couple bars that I could turn on/off during veg/flower,

I have not started to look into those yet, aside from seeing that there were some options.
Still looking for dif sources for strips, some of the ones I remember from before are no longer around.

well, that sums up where we are at on the 6 main cabs

This is exciting, I need to figure sizes for the other sections and get an idea of lights for there as well, then I will start looking at drivers.

5 inch spacing, and then say 1 inch for your strip: if you want 5 inches to walls of the last strip then you got 30" left, 6" per strip means 5 strips. If you want +300w those strips are running quite hard and will cause a fair bit of heating in your sinks. Trust me ive tried already. Id go for 8 strips at least and lower separation. But really, as for even coverage strips is not always the best way to go, i find that a fairly square place is really best served by 4 decent placed boards. If you feel its not enough and you have a rectangular space you can add another 2 in between on the long side. You can even run these on a separate driver to dial in. Also strip lights tend to have a really drastic fall off on anything not directly under the strips: using 2 feet strips leaves 8" not covered, thats a 1/4 of your space with low light.
This can kinda be remedied with more power and higher hanging height

But...

Strips or bar lights: these have better evenness of spread but only if youre quite close to the cannopy, the higher have them the more the space under your light will hotspot due to crosslighting being a bigger factor the higher it hangs. In your case, and especially if in the US id go for r-spec boards. The numbers presented by HLG are somewhat messy to use, they include driver losses and are for boards ran at close to 150w. If your counting board level and use only 80w they will be considerably higher.
Hlg are supposed to be very good for after sales and id trust their general build quality more than any china boards.
Sinking 80w boards is easy. If using 6 boards you would already be in the territory of not needing any sinking if using 320w. Id still do some just in case, but alu sheet would be enough.
Also hlg are supposed to be the best for after sales

 

[MedGrowerTom]

5 inch spacing, and then say 1 inch for your strip: if you want 5 inches to walls of the last strip then you got 30" left, 6" per strip means 5 strips. If you want +300w those strips are running quote hard and will cause a fair bit of heating in your sinks. Trust me ive tried already. Id go for 8 strips at least and lower separation. But really, as for even coverage strips is not always the best way to go, i find that a fairly square place is really best served by 4 decent placed boards. If you feel its not enough and you have a rectangular space you can add another 2 in between on the long side. You can even run these on a separate driver to dial in.

Strips or bar lights: these have better evenness of spread but only if youre quite close to the cannopy, the higher have the the more the space under your light will hotspot due to crosslighting being a bigger factor the higher it hangs. In your case, and especially if in the US id go for r-spec boards. The numbers presented by HLG are somewhat messy to use, they include driver losses and are for boards ran at close to 150w. If your counting board level and use only 80w they will be considerably higher.

yeah, each cab will be about 4 1/2 feet tall, so the plants will be fairly close to the lights. And I agree, after looking at the wattage of using 6 strips, that puts me under what I'm after. and 8 puts me more there. I def dont want to run them hard to get my wattage goals, I would def rather add a couple more bars.

and we are looking to be rectangular, 32" x 40"

I am have trouble finding 12" strips, I didn't want to use 24" because it leaves 3" on each side, but I suppose thats not that big of a deal

I'm still on the fence on 4 150w quantum boards(not ran that high of course)...where did you source your strips?

 

[Rocket Soul]

yeah, each cab will be about 4 1/2 feet tall, so the plants will be fairly close to the lights. And I agree, after looking at the wattage of using 6 strips, that puts me under what I'm after. and 8 puts me more there. I def dont want to run them hard to get my wattage goals, I would def rather add a couple more bars.

and we are looking to be rectangular, 32" x 40"

I am have trouble finding 12" strips, I didn't want to use 24" because it leaves 3" on each side, but I suppose thats not that big of a deal

I'm still on the fence on 4 150w quantum boards(not ran that high of course)...where did you source your strips?

Ive worked a fair bit with bridgelux strips, both eb range and i especially like their vesta strips: offers one warmwhite and one coldwhite channel with matched voltage so both channels can be run in parallel. You can source them with model nr in octopart.com, it will give any major online distributors. But actually i seem to get better deals locally on some blux stuff.

Ive also worked with alibaba sourced strips, cheap and cheerfull.

If money isnt an object and you want creme de la creme id suggest growlights australia : they have some strips im testing next. Real full spectrum from uv to far red and uses highest quality diodes from Nichia and Led TEKNIK. Very good spectrum and output, there is a lot of info on riu where theyre sponsors.

 

[MedGrowerTom]

Ive worked a fair bit with bridgelux strips, both eb range and i especially like their vesta strips: offers one warmwhite and one coldwhite channel with matched voltage so both channels can be run in parallel. You can source them with model nr in octopart.com, it will give any major online distributors. But actually i seem to get better deals locally on some blux stuff.

Ive also worked with alibaba sourced strips, cheap and cheerfull.

If money isnt an object and you want creme de la creme id suggest growlights australia : they have some strips im testing next. Real full spectrum from uv to far red and uses highest quality diodes from Nichia and Led TEKNIK. Very good spectrum and output, there is a lot of info on riu where theyre sponsors.

High Light 420 LED Strips - Grow Lights Australia

These new LED grow strips are perfect for shelf, wall, side-lighting, cloning, seed-raising or anywhere else you need a sunlike indoor plant spectrum.

growlightsaustralia.com

were those what you were checking out? those look neat, and those are not above my price point. be like 48+ of those strips for the 6 cabs, another 30+ strips for the other spots(including the kitchen grow cab)

 

[Ca++]

These seems to be a very good deal right now, they where 26 up until very recently.

Ca; what driver/s for 430w? Is that board or system? If MW, how do you dim your drivers? Those nrs (ppf/w and how you calculate ppfd for op) seem somewhat sloppy tbh.
Id tend to agree on a m2 but 3x3 aint a m2

The only calculation, was turning your feet into meters. Which was done, as PPFD is metric, and literally per meter. Once you see it for what it is, the labeling of the units really makes no difference. It's all the same thing, so there is no real maths. The only confusion is you trying to use feet, or 9 feet, when ppfd isn't in feet.

What I have done, is say what the light meter will read. If you put 40w over a foot. The light meter, however, will be telling you how much is falling over a meter, based on it's sample of a few mm. It's ppfd/m/s (per meter, per second). It's a measure of density, so is in a defined space, and in this case it's a count of quantity moving through, so we need a time-frame. PPFD is how much light hits a meter, every second. Calculated from measuring just a few mm of that meter.

If we start in feet, then we have 40w a foot, at 2.5umol/w so 100umol. There are 10.75 feet in a meter, so 1075umol, per meter, if we illuminated foot after foot, indefinately. However that's from the lights, so we don't have 1075ppfd, as we can expect losses. I'm guessing I said 850ppfd on the last page. Any difference, is 'the slop' and tbf, that 20% for losses, is not a constant at all. Just moving the light changes it. But as we are calculating a build that has not been done, it's reasonable. As is saying 10.75 feet in a meter, when it's a thumb different.

I have 1350umol per meter, but I only know this from the plug adapters that read the power used. I do have light meters, but don't need them. I know what they are going to say. They will say lots of things, as I move them about. Sometimes going the extra mile, is just exhausting. With no gain. My numbers will be right.

If you have the numeracy skills to judge the metric system (or my use of it) then lets see it.
Edit: Incidentally, my big school maths grade was average. Middle class stuff. This light stuff is easy, if you use it how it's meant to be used. Metric.

 

[Rocket Soul]

The only calculation, was turning your feet into meters. Which was done, as PPFD is metric, and literally per meter. Once you see it for what it is, the labeling of the units really makes no difference. It's all the same thing, so there is no real maths. The only confusion is you trying to use feet, or 9 feet, when ppfd isn't in feet.

What I have done, is say what the light meter will read. If you put 40w over a foot. The light meter, however, will be telling you how much is falling over a meter, based on it's sample of a few mm. It's ppfd/m/s (per meter, per second). It's a measure of density, so is in a defined space, and in this case it's a count of quantity moving through, so we need a time-frame. PPFD is how much light hits a meter, every second. Calculated from measuring just a few mm of that meter.

If we start in feet, then we have 40w a foot, at 2.5umol/w so 100umol. There are 10.75 feet in a meter, so 1075umol, per meter, if we illuminated foot after foot, indefinately. However that's from the lights, so we don't have 1075ppfd, as we can expect losses. I'm guessing I said 850ppfd on the last page. Any difference, is 'the slop' and tbf, that 20% for losses, is not a constant at all. Just moving the light changes it. But as we are calculating a build that has not been done, it's reasonable. As is saying 10.75 feet in a meter, when it's a thumb different.

I have 1350umol per meter, but I only know this from the plug adapters that read the power used. I do have light meters, but don't need them. I know what they are going to say. They will say lots of things, as I move them about. Sometimes going the extra mile, is just exhausting. With no gain. My numbers will be right.

If you have the numeracy skills to judge the metric system (or my use of it) then lets see it.
Edit: Incidentally, my big school maths grade was average. Middle class stuff. This light stuff is easy, if you use it how it's meant to be used. Metric.

Dude, im not trying to be up your ass about this, im just trying to help this guy size a driver. Are you recing 430w for that space then what driver/s? 430w at board or whole system?

I make calculations for a 320 A type driver i get around 1050ppf, which you seem to feel sufficient more or less but i look at actual output of board and driver.

 

[MedGrowerTom]

High Light 420 LED Strips - Grow Lights Australia

These new LED grow strips are perfect for shelf, wall, side-lighting, cloning, seed-raising or anywhere else you need a sunlike indoor plant spectrum.

growlightsaustralia.com

were those what you were checking out? those look neat, and those are not above my price point. be like 48+ of those strips for the 6 cabs, another 30+ strips for the other spots(including the kitchen grow cab)

damn them Australian led strips. they had a pic of it with 1 strip, and all the rest of pics had strips. so I emailed them, and its 75 bucks for 1 strip, not 4 like I had assumed. (bit less after you convert to usd) they said they would do much better pricing for bulk, as I need 80+ strips. They said its 10% less outside of Australia because no tax, and they less after convert to USD, and then less for bulk price.

I feel that with the cost of everything else, this may still me more than I was planning to pay for the strips. I am still keeping them as an option, and am still in contact with them about some bulk prices.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I get almost 2 Aus$ per euro so they come in a bit under Euro/w.

Edit: iirc they slash sales tax (10%) bulk order discount is another 10% and i think they have a FORUM voucher discount for another 10%. Price the whole thing out in your currency before making any decision.

 

[Ca++]

Dude, im not trying to be up your ass about this, im just trying to help this guy size a driver. Are you recing 430w for that space then what driver/s? 430w at board or whole system?

I make calculations for a 320 A type driver i get around 1050ppf, which you seem to feel sufficient more or less but i look at actual output of board and driver.

You said my math was sloppy lol
No, I'm not suggesting 430w. I'm pretty sure he knows the math as well as I do.

I was looking at strips recently, and put up a few links in the interlighting thread.
If the 3 foot was 94cm, these are fair https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004284877619.html
It's here as a 3x3 320w kit I think https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/3X3-0-9mX0-9m-320W-kit/911608218_10000002548351.html
I'm late for work, so can't look properly.

The AU site might be taking off 10% in sales tax, but won't the US put their own back on? I feel there is a good chance they are not manufactured in AU, but could be found in China. Again.. to busy.. but not forever

 

[Rocket Soul]

You said my math was sloppy lol
No, I'm not suggesting 430w. I'm pretty sure he knows the math as well as I do.

I was looking at strips recently, and put up a few links in the interlighting thread.
If the 3 foot was 94cm, these are fair https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004284877619.html
It's here as a 3x3 320w kit I think https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/3X3-0-9mX0-9m-320W-kit/911608218_10000002548351.html
I'm late for work, so can't look properly.

The AU site might be taking off 10% in sales tax, but won't the US put their own back on? I feel there is a good chance they are not manufactured in AU, but could be found in China. Again.. to busy.. but not forever

Ok, thats one approach. I find it more helpfull to start with an actual existing driver and go from there for driver selection. What good in suggesting a wattage that no driver has?
Im fine with the 80% thing of wall losses.
But r-spec 2.5 efficiency; thats with driver losses included and with boards at 150w. If you adjust for driver efficiency and lower amps @ 80 w per board you get close to 2.8. i use 94% for driver efficiency and about 7% efficiency boost when you half the watts of the board.
The hlg 320 48A have up around 7.5A output according to meanwells report, and with voltage regulation will reach the necessary voltage (its a 54V board but the regulation goes up to to 53, aswell as voltage drop using only 80w per board)
Assuming a 10ish% voltage drop so around 50V per boards this driver will easily manage.
So 50x7.5x2.8 =1050 ppf which is plenty.

https://www.meanwell-web.com/content/files/pdfs/productPdfs/MW/HLG-320H/HLG-320H-48-rpt.pdf

I find it much better to try to work numbers on the dc side of the driver since there is where we have actual measured numbers. They very rarely vary from these numbers. I think meanwell as a manufacturer just prefers to over spec a bit inorder to stay over stated spec.


I asked about what driver you meant to figure out how your counting; cause 2x hlg185 gives about 430w AC draw. Id agree 2x200 w drivers is probably preferable on a 1m2 build but this is 20% less, 9 ft2 is around 0.8 and bit m2, lets say .85
So your ppfd would be around
1050x0.80/0.85= 988 ppfd. Seems pretty much right in the range of no more light needed.

 

[MedGrowerTom]

You said my math was sloppy lol
No, I'm not suggesting 430w. I'm pretty sure he knows the math as well as I do.

I was looking at strips recently, and put up a few links in the interlighting thread.
If the 3 foot was 94cm, these are fair https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004284877619.html
It's here as a 3x3 320w kit I think https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/3X3-0-9mX0-9m-320W-kit/911608218_10000002548351.html
I'm late for work, so can't look properly.

The AU site might be taking off 10% in sales tax, but won't the US put their own back on? I feel there is a good chance they are not manufactured in AU, but could be found in China. Again.. to busy.. but not forever

Yeah, I'm looking at like 40" wide, so thats 101.6 cm wide, so if those strips are 84cm they will fit long ways in the cabs. If I were to rock those, 4 puts me at about 320 watts 5 puts me at 400. I dont see myself running at 400, but dimmed a bit should good, and If I want to push hard I could turn it up for a bit. I would still need some 24" maybe 12" strips for the non flower cabs. The price point on these is not bad.

Thanks again for the info/help so far, I'm mostly up speed as far as sizing drivers and the leds, I'll def have some efficiency questions to confirm leds and drivers are matched right, but that will be slightly down road after dialing in the led strip choices.

 

[MedGrowerTom]

KingBrite Led King Brite Kingbright KB-W55-L940mm 90W LM301B LM301H Quantum Bar Grow Light (PCBA+Heatsink Only)

thats the bars that Ca++ linked to, so far those are at the top of my list for the 6 flower cabs. 5 per cab. Im thinking of the lm301h over the lm301b's, and leaning towards the 3500k over the 3000k, as there will be some veg going on with these as well. These are 80w bars. I would have to run them at about 75% of that for my output goals. Im not sold on these, but playing with the numbers for now

I still need find smaller ones for the other sections, around 12" - 14" mostly geared towered the veg side of things.

 

[Ca++]

Ok, thats one approach. I find it more helpfull to start with an actual existing driver and go from there for driver selection. What good in suggesting a wattage that no driver has?
Im fine with the 80% thing of wall losses.
But r-spec 2.5 efficiency; thats with driver losses included and with boards at 150w. If you adjust for driver efficiency and lower amps @ 80 w per board you get close to 2.8. i use 94% for driver efficiency and about 7% efficiency boost when you half the watts of the board.
The hlg 320 48A have up around 7.5A output according to meanwells report, and with voltage regulation will reach the necessary voltage (its a 54V board but the regulation goes up to to 53, aswell as voltage drop using only 80w per board)
Assuming a 10ish% voltage drop so around 50V per boards this driver will easily manage.
So 50x7.5x2.8 =1050 ppf which is plenty.

https://www.meanwell-web.com/content/files/pdfs/productPdfs/MW/HLG-320H/HLG-320H-48-rpt.pdf

I find it much better to try to work numbers on the dc side of the driver since there is where we have actual measured numbers. They very rarely vary from these numbers. I think meanwell as a manufacturer just prefers to over spec a bit inorder to stay over stated spec.


I asked about what driver you meant to figure out how your counting; cause 2x hlg185 gives about 430w AC draw. Id agree 2x200 w drivers is probably preferable on a 1m2 build but this is 20% less, 9 ft2 is around 0.8 and bit m2, lets say .85
So your ppfd would be around
1050x0.80/0.85= 988 ppfd. Seems pretty much right in the range of no more light needed.

I wasn't making a suggestion.
You said

Wattage: seems a bit over kill for only 9 ft2, 40w per sq foot is usually the max

I said

40w a foot, doesn't sound extreme

Then I did the maths to explain my viewpoint.


The R-spec name, is HLG. They are mostly 3umol/j diodes, with a 90% efficiency driver. So you have 2.7umol left. This is under test conditions, where the board is ran at 58w@25C. HLG don't even use an extruded heatsink, and run them at 120w. It is illogical to expect more than 2.5umol/j and we have not spoke of conformal coating losses.
The published figures from any supplier are going to be the moment you switch it on, having fetched it from the freezer. This way, they can do as we are told. They just won't do it for us.

With a QB board coming in at £15 each, I weighed up the idea of adding more boards than needed, rather than adding heatsinks to the boards.
We should also look at typical bar lights, and taking them to pieces.
I did do a lot of this though, and the KB 55 series really isn't bad. After that was the bridgelux strips, also in that interlighting thread. Those sort of things will come in short lengths. I remember the website offering me things similar to my item, and I'm certain there were 10" and then quite a few around 6" that could be spaced out for 12-14"
These strips can usually run to about 80% without the need for heatsinks. Usually!
What is PCbuds using? His are that sort of size, and just stuck to the wall.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I wasn't making a suggestion.
You said

I said

Then I did the maths to explain my viewpoint.


The R-spec name, is HLG. They are mostly 3umol/j diodes, with a 90% efficiency driver. So you have 2.7umol left. This is under test conditions, where the board is ran at 58w@25C. HLG don't even use an extruded heatsink, and run them at 120w. It is illogical to expect more than 2.5umol/j and we have not spoke of conformal coating losses.
The published figures from any supplier are going to be the moment you switch it on, having fetched it from the freezer. This way, they can do as we are told. They just won't do it for us.

With a QB board coming in at £15 each, I weighed up the idea of adding more boards than needed, rather than adding heatsinks to the boards.
We should also look at typical bar lights, and taking them to pieces.
I did do a lot of this though, and the KB 55 series really isn't bad. After that was the bridgelux strips, also in that interlighting thread. Those sort of things will come in short lengths. I remember the website offering me things similar to my item, and I'm certain there were 10" and then quite a few around 6" that could be spaced out for 12-14"
These strips can usually run to about 80% without the need for heatsinks. Usually!
What is PCbuds using? His are that sort of size, and just stuck to the wall.

Driver is 94%. Which tests are you referring to, can you link? The tests on the HLG site is continuous use , 1-2hrs after being turned on, and at 150w with driver included, as such they are at working temps. Please peruse the linked tests if you like. HLG dont work with conformal coatings afaik.
Whats illogical with math??? All these things can be counted rather than assumed, its all in measured documentation. I dont understand why you would assume assume a board have the same efficiency at half the current there is defo an efficiency increase.
And i still dont get the point in suggesting a wattage without a driver suggestion in mind, a bit more helpful if you actually come up with a suggestion, hes building a real grow not a theoretical one.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1538/8585/files/700_Rspec_FR_PAR_Aug12_2022.pdf?v=1669134388

 

[Ca++]

That is Samsung's documentation. Where is the increased efficiency from lower power use?
I'm not sure who shopify are. I look places like Samsung and Meanwell, and pretty much ignore the downstream manufacture and sales claims.
This is now revolving around a few percent here and there. The losses seen through mounting them are 20-30% so a few here and there, are not worth thinking about. This can only ever be a rough number, and any real effort to be precise means measuring the reflectivity of the walls and such. It's not worth it.
I also use 288QB boards with a 301 and 660 mix, which is what the r-spec is. I'm no stranger to putting light meters under them, and looking at the power consumption. What really makes the difference, isn't things like driver efficiency curves. It's implementation.

 

[Rocket Soul]

View attachment 18927781
That is Samsung's documentation. Where is the increased efficiency from lower power use?
I'm not sure who shopify are. I look places like Samsung and Meanwell, and pretty much ignore the downstream manufacture and sales claims.
This is now revolving around a few percent here and there. The losses seen through mounting them are 20-30% so a few here and there, are not worth thinking about. This can only ever be a rough number, and any real effort to be precise means measuring the reflectivity of the walls and such. It's not worth it.
I also use 288QB boards with a 301 and 660 mix, which is what the r-spec is. I'm no stranger to putting light meters under them, and looking at the power consumption. What really makes the difference, isn't things like driver efficiency curves. It's implementation.

The efficiency increase per watt is mainly in the lower voltage at lower currents. The graph you show only current on the x axis, not total power, this is why it seems like theres no gains. But yeah, usually the voltage scales at 10% lower when halfing the current, and the total efficiency boost is around 7% for white diodes.
R-spec isnt samsung whites its Seoul semiconductors. My cualms isnt really with light loss thru hanging, its the same on any similar build, its about guesstimating efficiency instead of calculating when we have good measured numbers for everything if we look for it. Documentation is all good but allways better with real life tests which are available

 

[Ca++]

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