mazar I shariff RSC line roms

[BakedBandit]

I knew ghengis kush just couldn't stay away

 

[ngakpa]

hi - yes, this paper seems to have been inspired by a suggestion Sherratt made years ago - thanks for reminding me to check it out

btw this article you've quoted (not the paper itself) misrepresents the Yamnaya as being "European"... iirc the heart of their region was the Pontic-Caspian steppe and the Caucasus, which is basically the internal Eurasian frontier... Central Eurasia, not Central Europe... it's the same region in which Herodotus later observed the Scythians smoking cannabis

so it's misleading to describe this as an export from Europe... if this trade happened at all, which I am skeptical about... though I should check out this paper before I comment further

No it's not misleading, you just couldn't handle being wrong.
The Yamnaya horizon was located in Eastern Europe. So they originally lived in Eastern Europe. And the overwhelming majority of modern European males descend directly from them.

it is misleading, mate --- n.b. it's the magazine that did it, not the scholarly paper

the Yamnaya were located on the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but arrived there from the east, from Central Asia - they were nomads; not only that, Yamnaya also migrated back east into Siberia

calling the Pontic-Caspian Steppe 'Eastern Europe' is not just a stretch, it's also inaccurate, given that the P-C steppe reaches all the way into contemporary Kazakhstan

it's even more misleading when you consider the era we are talking about

Herodotus, writing much later, didn't consider the nomads living on the Pontic-Caspitan steppe to be Europeans - e.g. he considered the Scythians to be Asians

Herodotus placed the 'border' of Europe, and the start of Asia, at the Kerch Strait (eastern Black Sea), which lies more or less on the midpoint longitude of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe

like the Yamnaya, the Scythians arrived on the P-C from Central Asia -

the P-C steppe is the frontier zone which nomads migrated through on their way out of Central Asia and into Europe

to the Greeks, who had settled on the northern coast of the Black Sea, these nomads were outsiders, an alien culture, that had arrived in Europe from Asia

placing a strict dividing line Europe/Asia is always going to be arbitrary, because Europe and Asia are on one landmass - Eurasia

which is why it makes sense to consider the Pontic-Caspian steppe an internal frontier region within Eurasia

geographically and culturally that works - it's a steppe frontier, a transitional region between cultural zones

edit: most modern Europeans have some Yamnaya DNA, but that doesn't make the Yamnaya themselves 'European' any more than it makes early hominids in Africa Europeans

 

[meizzwang]

Quick update on Mazar I Sharif hash yield: did a bubblehash run on the small amount of resinous leaf trim, and the yield was great! Will do a smoke report shortly.....

 

[ngakpa]

Quick update on Mazar I Sharif has yield: did a bubblehash run on the small amount of resinous leaf trim, and the yield was great! Will do a smoke report shortly.....

worth noting: you are likely to get the nicest hash by blending the resin from several different plants

 

[Water-]

.

 

[Water-]

it is misleading, mate --- n.b. it's the magazine that did it, not the scholarly paper

the Yamnaya were located on the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but arrived there from the east, from Central Asia - they were nomads; not only that, Yamnaya also migrated back east into Siberia

calling the Pontic-Caspian Steppe 'Eastern Europe' is not just a stretch, it's also inaccurate, given that the P-C steppe reaches all the way into contemporary Kazakhstan

it's even more misleading when you consider the era we are talking about

Herodotus, writing much later, didn't consider the nomads living on the Pontic-Caspitan steppe to be Europeans - e.g. he considered the Scythians to be Asians

Herodotus placed the 'border' of Europe, and the start of Asia, at the Kerch Strait (eastern Black Sea), which lies more or less on the midpoint longitude of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe

like the Yamnaya, the Scythians arrived on the P-C from Central Asia -

the P-C steppe is the frontier zone which nomads migrated through on their way out of Central Asia and into Europe

to the Greeks, who had settled on the northern coast of the Black Sea, these nomads were outsiders, an alien culture, that had arrived in Europe from Asia

placing a strict dividing line Europe/Asia is always going to be arbitrary, because Europe and Asia are on one landmass - Eurasia

which is why it makes sense to consider the Pontic-Caspian steppe an internal frontier region within Eurasia

geographically and culturally that works - it's a steppe frontier, a transitional region between cultural zones

edit: most modern Europeans have some Yamnaya DNA, but that doesn't make the Yamnaya themselves 'European' any more than it makes early hominids in Africa Europeans

You need to catch up on your knowledge a bit. You are pretty outdated with your understanding of current findings in human population genetics and movement . Yamnaya people originated in what I consider Eastern Europe . Many if not most of Northern European patrilineal lineages originate with these people. It is a very complex issue that is probably better discussed in a different thread as to not distract from the purpose of this thread.
My original point was that the earliest evidence of burning cannabis comes from the European region and not far Asia where current evidence shows that it was first cultivated for fiber and seeds. It seems that the practice of burning cannabis may have been brought to Asia by people from the European part of the Eurasian continent..

Aloha

Irie not Irate

 

[ngakpa]

You need to catch up on your knowledge a bit. You are pretty outdated with your understanding of current findings in human population genetics and movement . Yamnaya people originated in what I consider Eastern Europe . Many if not most of Northern European patrilineal lineages originate with these people. It is a very complex issue that is probably better discussed in a different thread as to not distract from the purpose of this thread.
My original point was that the earliest evidence of burning cannabis comes from the European region and not far Asia where current evidence shows that it was first cultivated for fiber and seeds. It seems that the practice of burning cannabis may have been brought to Asia by people from the European part of the Eurasian continent..

Aloha

Irie not Irate

I can see why people are keen to sieze on the idea that cannabis smoking began with Europeans

but the Yamnaya were steppe nomads - and the Yamnaya horizon stretches from the Don-Volga all the way east beyond the Caspian to an area that literally nobody claims is Europe...

what we are talking about here is the steppe and steppe nomads

nomadism is fundamentally a steppe phenomenon

and nomadism is also totally antithetical to the settled cultures that have existed in Europe for millenia -

this is why there was always such tension between European farmers and city dwellers on the one hand and steppe nomads on the other --- it's the fundamental cultural divide of that period onwards

most importantly: in pre-history and the Classical period, cannabis smoking was a steppe phenomenon

insisting that the Yamnaya were 'Eastern Europeans' just shows a failure to grasp the geography and culture of Eurasia

there were pasturalist cannabis smokers even further west than the Yamnaya during the Classical period - eg the Thracians (Getae) in what is now Romania, but they had also migrated into the Pontic Caspian steppe due to pressure from other steppe tribes in Central Asia... the same reason as almost every other nomad tribe that arrived at the door of Europe did

it's never a good idea to put too much weight on one study, particularly one like this that is openly speculative

 

[Water-]

I can see why people are keen to sieze on the idea that cannabis smoking began with Europeans

but the Yamnaya were steppe nomads - and the Yamnaya horizon stretches from the Don-Volga all the way east beyond the Caspian to an area that literally nobody claims is Europe...

what we are talking about here is the steppe and steppe nomads

nomadism is fundamentally a steppe phenomenon

and nomadism is also totally antithetical to the settled cultures that have existed in Europe for millenia -

this is why there was always such tension between European farmers and city dwellers on the one hand and steppe nomads on the other --- it's the fundamental cultural divide of that period onwards

most importantly: in pre-history and the Classical period, cannabis smoking was a steppe phenomenon

insisting that the Yamnaya were 'Eastern Europeans' just shows a failure to grasp the geography and culture of Eurasia

there were pasturalist cannabis smokers even further west than the Yamnaya during the Classical period - eg the Thracians (Getae) in what is now Romania, but they had also migrated into thei Pontic Caspian steppe due to pressure from other steppe tribes in Central Asia... the same reason as almost every other nomad tribe that arrived at the door of Europe did

it's never a good idea to put too much weight on one study, particularly one like this that is openly speculative

You assume my education is limited to one article. It's not.

It's never a good idea to argue about something you are not educated on. That's why you need to stop now.

Nomadism is a phenomenon related to seasonal changes in resource availability, it's not a steppe phenomenon. The steppe may be a place where it appears most evident from your perspective. Yet there are nomadic Sea Gypsies in SE Asia and nomadic peoples living in the Amazon jungle still to this day.

Did I day the Yamnaya spread cannabis smoking to Asia?
The article may have, as much of the "Neolithic package" was transported to Asia by people from the western end of Eurasia.
Here is a link to the actual scientific journal, "Vegetation History and Archaeobotany " it came from.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00334-016-0579-6

But what I said is that the oldest evidence of burning cannabis is from European part of the Eurasian continent .

You are mistaken about the origins of the Yamnaya . The western Ukraine is certainly Europe. And genetically they are a mixture of Near Eastern, European Hunter Gatherer and Ancient North Eurasian components.
I think this is better discussed in an anthropology blog like:
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/11/whos-your-proto-daddy-western-europeans.html?m=1


Im on there daily if you would like to continue this discussion

 

[ngakpa]

You assume my education is limited to one article. It's not.

It's never a good idea to argue about something you are not educated on. That's why you need to stop now.

Nomadism is a phenomenon related to seasonal changes in resource availability, it's not a steppe phenomenon. The steppe may be a place where it appears most evident from your perspective. Yet there are nomadic Sea Gypsies in SE Asia and nomadic peoples living in the Amazon jungle still to this day.

Did I day the Yamnaya spread cannabis smoking to Asia?
The article may have, as much of the "Neolithic package" was transported to Asia by people from the western end of Eurasia.
Here is a link to the actual scientific journal, "Vegetation History and Archaeobotany " it came from.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00334-016-0579-6

But what I said is that the oldest evidence of burning cannabis is from European part of the Eurasian continent .

You are mistaken about the origins of the Yamnaya . The western Ukraine is certainly Europe. And genetically they are a mixture of Near Eastern, European Hunter Gatherer and Ancient North Eurasian components.
I think this is better discussed in an anthropology blog like:
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/11/whos-your-proto-daddy-western-europeans.html?m=1


Im on there daily if you would like to continue this discussion

I didn't assume anything about your education

first thing to be clear on:

we're talking about Europe (and the Middle East) vs. Asia, which means settled urban centres and settled agriculturalists vs. nomadic pasturalism

this is an absolutely fundamental cultural divide

I'm well aware that there are numerous other examples of nomadism outside the steppe, including other types of nomadism, but what we are talking about here is pastural nomadism in Eurasia in the context of Europe and what it means to be European vs. not

again, I'm aware of the genetics of the Yamnaya, and again you're missing the point:

genetically Europoid nomads formed a part of nomad groups from the outset

nomad confederations were typically mixed race groups of Mongoloid and Europoid, reaching as far east as the steppe would take them (modern far east of Russia north of Korea)

(incidentally, the 'Near Eastern' genetic thing doesn't do your case favours - given that it is a reference to the Caucasus, which many people reasonably consider to be Europe)

and again, you're missing the point about geography:

yes, politically western Ukraine is undoubtedly part of modern Europe

but geographically, the Don-Volga region is on the steppe, and in the period we are talking about the Yamnaya horizon is entirely within the geographic and cultural steppe continuum

this is the whole point:

the Yamnaya were cannabis smoking nomads from the east, which means they were totally 'Other' to the settled European cultures to their west

understood in their cultural, historical, and geographic context, it makes no sense to refer to the Yamnaya as 'Europeans'

 

[therevverend]

Are we talking about actual smoking or Herodotus' accounts of nomads taking 'smoke baths' in tents? As far as I know smoking was introduced to Europe after the Columbian Exchange.
Maybe I can solve this argument before it drags the off topic blah blah even further away from the Mazar i Sharif line then it already is? Can we call them Eurasian? A nomad hops on a horse, one day he's in Germany a week later he's in China, doubt he keeps track if he's European or Asian. When you're born on a horse or in a wagon the world is your home..

 

[Water-]

I didn't assume anything about your education

first thing to be clear on:

we're talking about Europe (and the Middle East) vs. Asia, which means settled urban centres and settled agriculturalists vs. nomadic pasturalism

this is an absolutely fundamental cultural divide

I'm well aware that there are numerous other examples of nomadism outside the steppe, including other types of nomadism, but what we are talking about here is pastural nomadism in Eurasia in the context of Europe and what it means to be European vs. not

again, I'm aware of the genetics of the Yamnaya, and again you're missing the point:

genetically Europoid nomads formed a part of nomad groups from the outset

nomad confederations were typically mixed race groups of Mongoloid and Europoid, reaching as far east as the steppe would take them (modern far east of Russia north of Korea)

(incidentally, the 'Near Eastern' genetic thing doesn't do your case favours - given that it is a reference to the Caucasus, which many people reasonably consider to be Europe)

and again, you're missing the point about geography:

yes, politically western Ukraine is undoubtedly part of modern Europe

but geographically, the Don-Volga region is on the steppe, and in the period we are talking about the Yamnaya horizon is entirely within the geographic and cultural steppe continuum

this is the whole point:

the Yamnaya were cannabis smoking nomads from the east, which means they were totally 'Other' to the settled European cultures to their west

understood in their cultural, historical, and geographic context, it makes no sense to refer to the Yamnaya as 'Europeans'

I could care less what it means to you to be European or Asian

You have no idea what you are talking about.
End of conversation unless you would like to debate in an anthropology forum where you will be quickly shut down for your ignorance on the subject.

Or start a thread about the Yamnaya

This is a thread about Afghan herb not your egos inability to not be an authority on everything.

 

[meizzwang]

how about we discuss a Mazar I Sharif smoke report, shall we? Keep in mind, your mileage may vary, this is a report from only one individual plant.

The aroma from the plant directly translates to the flavor, it tastes outstanding! I get a deep skunky aroma, and as it dries, it smells more like fresh roasted high quality coffee with a hint of sweetness. When you take a nice "green rip" the flavor tastes like your everyday high class chronic but it's slightly different and unique (in an excellent way...hard to describe). When smoking buds, the potency is perhaps a notch above "moderate" and the high is gentle and very relaxing. The full melt hash was decently strong, but there seemed to have been a ceiling at some point. It's 100% couch-lock and body high, ideal for night time and relaxation. In my opinion, the high seems one dimensional (ie. only one type of effect, which is narcotic, sedating) so with that respect, it seems a bit boring (disclaimer: I'm a sativa lover). However, there's no doubt in my mind this is a winner strain for indica lovers in search of new flavors and a non-paranoid, comfortable effects. I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be high in CBD or of medical importance in the future.

My particular plant was very leafy, so it's not exactly the most beautiful looking thing, but it tastes and rips way better than it looks! Overall, Mazar I Sharif went beyond my expectations just because the flavor alone makes it worth growing again! I find myself going back to this strain in the evenings when winding down from the day.

 

[ngakpa]

Are we talking about actual smoking or Herodotus' accounts of nomads taking 'smoke baths' in tents? As far as I know smoking was introduced to Europe after the Columbian Exchange.
Maybe I can solve this argument before it drags the off topic blah blah even further away from the Mazar i Sharif line then it already is? Can we call them Eurasian? A nomad hops on a horse, one day he's in Germany a week later he's in China, doubt he keeps track if he's European or Asian. When you're born on a horse or in a wagon the world is your home..

hi there -

the Scythians in Herodotus were getting high by inhaling smoke inside tents, hence the "howls of delight". There are several other accounts from Classical historians (e.g. Strabo) of nomadic steppe tribes smoking to get high, including the Getae and Massagetae, by throwing plants onto fires and deliberately inhaling the smoke. Smoking did exist in the Old World prior to the 16th century. You can check out Andrew Sherratt.

It's not really off the topic of the Mazar-i-Sharif, which is why I kept pursuing it. The Massagetae were described as smoking a plant that was very likely cannabis that grew along the Araxes or possibly the Oxus, and those strains are likely to be distant ancestors of the cannabis strains grown in modern Afghanistan such as the Mazar.

You could call steppe nomads Eurasians, but you can call anyone on the Eurasian landmass a Eurasian. It's an interesting topic because it relates to the origins of the use of cannabis to get high. It seems clear enough that the practice of getting high on cannabis (first by smoking, later by drinking) belonged to mobile nomadic warrior cultures from the steppe, which is why it appears that Europeans and Chinese never acquired it (until comparitively very recently) because nomadism is and was totally antithetical to them, whereas India, which tended to absorb steppe influences, such as Vedic culture, did.

 

[ngakpa]

how about we discuss a Mazar I Sharif smoke report, shall we? Keep in mind, your mileage may vary, this is a report from only one individual plant.

The aroma from the plant directly translates to the flavor, it tastes outstanding! I get a deep skunky aroma, and as it dries, it smells more like fresh roasted high quality coffee with a hint of sweetness. When you take a nice "green rip" the flavor tastes like your everyday high class chronic but it's slightly different and unique (in an excellent way...hard to describe). When smoking buds, the potency is perhaps a notch above "moderate" and the high is gentle and very relaxing. The full melt hash was decently strong, but there seemed to have been a ceiling at some point. It's 100% couch-lock and body high, ideal for night time and relaxation. In my opinion, the high seems one dimensional (ie. only one type of effect, which is narcotic, sedating) so with that respect, it seems a bit boring (disclaimer: I'm a sativa lover). However, there's no doubt in my mind this is a winner strain for indica lovers in search of new flavors and a non-paranoid, comfortable effects. I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be high in CBD or of medical importance in the future.

My particular plant was very leafy, so it's not exactly the most beautiful looking thing, but it tastes and rips way better than it looks! Overall, Mazar I Sharif went beyond my expectations just because the flavor alone makes it worth growing again! I find myself going back to this strain in the evenings when winding down from the day.

View Image

View Image

interesting and confirms what others have said

I think you get more depth by blending several plants

I suspect the ceiling is linked to CBD too

In my experience smoking the resin at source there is a light bright heady element too it as well as the intense physical relaxation... a dreamy loss of time quality that I think the Afghans go for

I guess if you went through more plants then you would find ones where the more cerebral effects are more pronounced

And as you say, the flavour and aroma is a standout quality too

Edit: worth pointing out that the plant Meizzwang is describing is not the Roms one. It's from RSC and now a couple of generations from source

 

[Water-]

hi there -

the Scythians in Herodotus were getting high by inhaling smoke inside tents, hence the "howls of delight". There are several other accounts from Classical historians (e.g. Strabo) of nomadic steppe tribes smoking to get high, including the Getae and Massagetae, by throwing plants onto fires and deliberately inhaling the smoke. Smoking did exist in the Old World prior to the 16th century. You can check out Andrew Sherratt.

It's not really off the topic of the Mazar-i-Sharif, which is why I kept pursuing it. The Massagetae were described as smoking a plant that was very likely cannabis that grew along the Araxes or possibly the Oxus, and those strains are likely to be distant ancestors of the cannabis strains grown in modern Afghanistan such as the Mazar.

You could call steppe nomads Eurasians, but you can call anyone on the Eurasian landmass a Eurasian. It's an interesting topic because it relates to the origins of the use of cannabis to get high. It seems clear enough that the practice of getting high on cannabis (first by smoking, later by drinking) belonged to mobile nomadic warrior cultures from the steppe, which is why it appears that Europeans and Chinese never acquired it (until comparitively very recently) because nomadism is and was totally antithetical to them, whereas India, which tended to absorb steppe influences, such as Vedic culture, did.

The Yamnaya had a greater influence genetically and culturally in Western Europe than they did in India. They almost completely replaced the male gene pool all the way out to Ireland where almost all males are their direct descendants
It's not clear what happened in India but there is a genetic research paper coming out soon that should help clear things up.

What do you know about ancient Northern European beliefs compared to Vedic beliefs ? Or the real origin of the Vedas?

There are many thousands of years between the Yamnaya and the modern afghan varieties. It's a bit of an over assumption to claim that they are directly related . Modern Afghanistan has been conquered by many other groups since then.

You keep talking out your ass.

 

[Green]

Thanks Meizzwang for the update, did you have any late to sex? late finishers?

Water, I enjoyed the conversation, but resulting to ad hominem?

 

[herbgreen]

Water, I enjoyed the conversation, but resulting to ad hominem?

ya, brah... a very much harsh ad hominem

 

[Water-]

The exchange only distracted from the thread.
Sorry for that.

But not ad hominem at all. I do not know him at all and have no negative feeling towards him.

I saw it as an attack on an archetype but it's still all meaningless. Aloha

 

[Elmer Bud]

hi there -

the Scythians in Herodotus were getting high by inhaling smoke inside tents, hence the "howls of delight". There are several other accounts from Classical historians (e.g. Strabo) of nomadic steppe tribes smoking to get high, including the Getae and Massagetae, by throwing plants onto fires and deliberately inhaling the smoke. Smoking did exist in the Old World prior to the 16th century. You can check out Andrew Sherratt.

It's not really off the topic of the Mazar-i-Sharif, which is why I kept pursuing it. The Massagetae were described as smoking a plant that was very likely cannabis that grew along the Araxes or possibly the Oxus, and those strains are likely to be distant ancestors of the cannabis strains grown in modern Afghanistan such as the Mazar.

You could call steppe nomads Eurasians, but you can call anyone on the Eurasian landmass a Eurasian. It's an interesting topic because it relates to the origins of the use of cannabis to get high. It seems clear enough that the practice of getting high on cannabis (first by smoking, later by drinking) belonged to mobile nomadic warrior cultures from the steppe, which is why it appears that Europeans and Chinese never acquired it (until comparitively very recently) because nomadism is and was totally antithetical to them, whereas India, which tended to absorb steppe influences, such as Vedic culture, did.

G `day ngakpa

I read about the Sycthians using a tripod to make a tent they could stick their heads into . Rather than a full sized tent one might sleep in .

How about the info in RC Clarke`s Hashish about the Afghan Hash makers being from SW China ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[ngakpa]

The Yamnaya had a greater influence genetically and culturally in Western Europe than they did in India. They almost completely replaced the male gene pool all the way out to Ireland where almost all males are their direct descendants
It's not clear what happened in India but there is a genetic research paper coming out soon that should help clear things up.

What do you know about ancient Northern European beliefs compared to Vedic beliefs ? Or the real origin of the Vedas?

There are many thousands of years between the Yamnaya and the modern afghan varieties. It's a bit of an over assumption to claim that they are directly related . Modern Afghanistan has been conquered by many other groups since then.

You keep talking out your ass.

hi

I hope you're alright mate, the nasty tone is a bit weird - this is an interesting topic, why not keep it nice?

just to try to clear a few things up, because this is interesting:

the points you're arguing with there are things I haven't even said, so we're in danger of things becoming meaningless

but anyway, the main problem that I have with the misleading claim about the Yamnaya being 'Europeans' is that it easily becomes 'cannabis was discovered by white guys', and it's clear why that is the last thing we need (the confused preoccupation with the role of genetics you've already shown is a good reason to be worried about that possibility)

I didn't say anything about the Yamnaya migrating into India, I've no idea where that idea comes from

likewise I said nothing about Afghan strains originating with the Yamnaya

all I said about the origins of Afghan strains is that the plants that grew wild along the Oxus River and were smoked by the Massagetae (a nomad confederation who existed much later than the Yamnaya, at a similar time to the Scythians) were almost certainly cannabis and are likely the distant ancestors of modern cultivated strains grown in places like Afghanistan

have a look at where the Oxus (Amu Darya) flows - it's largely dried up afaik, but its course goes directly past historic growing centers such as Bukhara and north of Mazar-i-Sharif -

steppe nomad confederations were throwing a plant that grew wild along that river onto fires 2500 years ago to get high

seems pretty clear to me that any modern cultivars from that region are going to have some of those genes