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BullDogUK

Member
Sorry I feel I should say; when I say disorganized, I'm in no way trying to infer that the Native Americans were 'savages' or anything, I mean that they existed as a large number of disparate tribes and groupings, compared to the pretty concerted settlement efforts by European powers.
 

DemonPigeon

Member
Veteran
I wasn't saying you called them savages mate, Huge used the word and I was responding to him.

I totally agree that most large native groups were basically non-hierarchical federations of smaller hierarchical groups.
 

BullDogUK

Member
BullDog, acquiescence as you suggest, to many people is WORSE than death

Well the point I was trying to make was that if the government singles you out as a target to remove, you're not going to be able to do much to defend yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIUZ-QtflQw

If you think you can fend off that sort of effort by yourself then good luck trying to stay alive...

On the other hand, an armed rebellion is perfectly feasible, I just don't see it happening in the western world
 
B

Bag

NO GUNS FORT COFFEE DRINKERS !!!!


dont think coffee is a drug, take it away from people who drink it and see how they act , coffee is a mind and mood altering drug , period !
fuck the american govt and their ideas about plants that grow on this planet.
 

imnotcrazy

There is ALWAYS meaning to my madness ®
Veteran
A bit off topic but because it was brought up......

A bit off topic but because it was brought up......

I totally agree that most large native groups were basically non-hierarchical federations of smaller hierarchical groups.


"
The Iroquois (pron.: /ˈɪrəkwɔɪ/ or /ˈɪrəkwɑː/), also known as the Haudenosaunee or the "People of the Longhouse",[1] are a league of several nations and tribes of indigenous people of North America. After the Iroquoian-speaking peoples of present-day central and upstate New York coalesced as distinct tribes, by the 16th century or earlier, they came together in an association known today as the Iroquois League, or the "League of Peace and Power".[2] The Iroquois are a matrilineal society. They have clan mothers, or main women of the leagues.

The original Iroquois League was often known as the Five Nations, as it was composed of the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca nations. After the Tuscarora nation joined the League in 1722, the Iroquois became known as the Six Nations. The League is embodied in the Grand Council, an assembly of fifty hereditary sachems.[2] Other Iroquian peoples lived along the St. Lawrence River, around the Great Lakes and in the American Southeast, but they were not part of the Haudenosaunee and often competed and warred with these tribes.

When Europeans first arrived in North America, the Haudenosaunee were based in what is now the northeastern United States, primarily in what is referred to today as upstate New York west of the Hudson River and through the Finger Lakes region.[3] Today, the Iroquois live primarily in New York, Quebec, and Ontario.

The Iroquois League has also been known as the Iroquois Confederacy. Modern scholars distinguish between the League and the Confederacy.[4][5][6] According to this interpretation, the Iroquois League refers to the ceremonial and cultural institution embodied in the Grand Council, while the Iroquois Confederacy is the decentralized political and diplomatic entity that emerged in response to European colonization. The League still exists. The Confederacy dissolved after the defeat of the British and allied Iroquois nations in the American Revolutionary War.[4] "




Native American Contributions
Number 1



Did you know that Native Americans have contributed many things to the American way of life today? Things that you use or do now, many Native Americans have been using and doing for many, many years.


Many times, the only thing people remember about Native Americans are the negative things-but they contribute many positive things and should be remembered for them. A lot of time, we only think about things we can readily identify as representing Native Americans, such as their fine art
work. Yes-the people of the Southwest are known for their beautiful silver and turquoise jewelry. The people of the Northwest Coast are known for their fantastic woodcarvings. The Plains Indians are well known for their beautiful beadwork.


But other than art, the Native Americans have influenced many areas of American living. Some of these things were begun long before the arrival of the European settlers on North American land.

DID YOU KNOW THAT ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF NATIVE AMERICAN LIFE IS ECOLOGY? People of today have just begun to think about this. The Native Americans have always had a deep respect for the land. There was a love of every form of life. The Native Americans did not kill anything they could not use. They never killed an animal or a fish for the sport of it. Fishing and hunting were a way to survive. The Native Americans lived in harmony with nature and did not abuse the natural world. Native Americans were ecologists long before they were ever used. The Anishinaabe people do not have a word for “Conservation”, because it is an assumed way of life, it did not have to have a special word.



DID YOU KNOW THAT MANY OF THE FOODS WE EAT TODAY WERE FIRST GROWN BY NATIVE AMERICANS? Native Americans learned to grow and use many different kinds of food that many people eat today, never considering that they first came from Native Americans: potatoes, beans, corn, peanuts, pumpkins, tomatoes, squash, peppers, nuts, melons, and sunflower seeds. They also helped the European settlers survive in the New World by sharing their farming methods with them.



DID YOU KNOW THAT MANY OF THE GAMES YOU PLAY TODAY CAME FROM NATIVE AMERICANS? Canoeing, snowshoeing, tobogganing, lacrosse, relay races, tug-of-wars, and ball games are just a few of the games early Native Americans played and still enjoy today. Many youth groups such as Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Campfire and YMCA Guides have programs based largely on Native American crafts and lore.


DID YOU KNOW THAT THE IDEA FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WAS ADOPTED FROM THE NATIVE AMERICANS? Benjamin Franklin said that the idea of the federal government, in which certain powers are given to a central government and all other powers are reserved for the states, was borrowed from the system of government used by the Iroquoian League of Nations.



DID YOU KNOW THAT MANY WORDS WE USE EVERY DAY CAME FROM NATIVE AMERICANS? Countless Native American words and inventions have become an everyday part of our language and use. Some of these include: barbecue, caribou, chipmunk, woodchuck, hammock, toboggan, skunk, mahogany, hurricane, and moccasin. Many towns, cities and rivers have names of Native American origin. Just a few of these include: Seattle, Spokane, Yakima, Pocatello, Chinook, Flathead Lake, Milwaukee, Ottawa, Miami, Wichita, and Kalispell.



DID YOU KNOW THAT NATIVE AMERICANS DEVELOPED AND COMMUNICATED WITH SIGN LANGUAGE? A system of hand signals was developed to facilitate trade and communicate between different tribal groups and later between Native Americas and trappers and traders. The same idea is used today for communicating with those who are deaf and unable to speak. The signs are different, but the idea is the same.



DID YOU KNOW THAT MANY NATIVE AMERICANS SERVED DURING WORLD WAR I, WORLD WAR II AND OTHER CAMPAIGNS? Even though many of them were not even citizens, more than 8,000 Native Americans volunteered and served during World War I. Well over 24,000 served during World War II. One of the most notable contributions during World War II was the service of the Navajo Code Talkers, a special group of volunteers who did top-secret work using a secret code in Navajo that could not be broken. (even the German Enigma machine code was broken)



DID YOU KNOW THAT INDIANS AS INDIVIDUALS HAVE EXCELLED IN MANY FIELDS? Jim Thorpe (athlete), Billy Mills (athlete), Johnny Bench (athlete), Charles Curtis (vice president of U.S.), Maria Tallchief (ballerina), Johnny Cash (entertainer), Buffy St. Marie (musician) and Will Rogers (entertainer)... these are just a few. With some research, the list could be extended to include someone in every area and walk of life.

Many Students, as well as adults, do not know of the contributions made by the American Indian. The contributions cover a wide spectrum of American culture. It is most important that children be made aware of such information not only to erase
generalizations, but also to make them aware ofthe importance of the Native American in the historical and contemporary settling
of America



60% of the present world’s food supply comes from the American Indians’ agriculture, primarily consisting of corn and the so-called “Irish” potatoes. Thousands of American Indian names dot our maps in states, cities, counties, lakes, mountains and rivers, and hundreds of Indian names are used as trade names for modern manufactured products, etc

Besides the recognized contributions such as corn, squash, etc, the most important contribution is the Indian’s value system.

They placed emphasis and importance on:


Respect for Mother Earth (Ecology),
Respect for Fellow Man ( No Prejudice),
Respect for the Great Spirit (God),
generosity, sharing (no material acquisitions),

honest leadership selection,
bravery, courage,
respect for the aged, family tradition,
no religious animosity,
no major wars (no Indian nation destroyed another),
also there were thousands of years of peace (before 1492);
no tranquilizers, drugs, alcohol, ulcers,
no poor, no rich,
no insane asylums,
no jails, prisons, lawyers, taxes, borders or boundaries,
no germ warfare (smallpox infected blankets),
and no complete annihilation weapons (Hydrogen bomb)


From :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois

and

ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/MI/AI/ContributionsByAmericanIndians.pdf
 
Last edited:

DemonPigeon

Member
Veteran
NO GUNS FORT COFFEE DRINKERS !!!!


dont think coffee is a drug, take it away from people who drink it and see how they act , coffee is a mind and mood altering drug , period !
fuck the american govt and their ideas about plants that grow on this planet.

I'm so hooked on caffeine due to soft drinks I get withdrawl headaches if I don't drink at least a few cans of coke a day, it's awful :-(
I've given it up a few times but then after a few months someone will offer me one can an I'm rigth back on major consumption again.

People would think I was some kind of health food fascist like Jamie Oliver if I told them, "I don't do caffeine, I have an abusive relationship with it".

My relationship with weed is so much healthier, I may get stoned a lot but I don't acutally spend very much, certainly I spend less than £10 a week (what's that? three beers?) and while I miss it when I can't get high I can go without for months at a time and it doesn't bother me.
 

BullDogUK

Member
Caffeine withdrawal is seriously unpleasant. Frankly I think anyone who thinks our current mode of drug illegality is a good idea should get themselves a caffeine addiction and then go cold turkey to break the habit. Would not wish it upon anyone haha!

imnotcrazy said:
Assorted contributions of Native Americans to modern life

I'm well aware of all the points you mention; indeed the introduction of New World foods is considered a pretty major step on the development of the modern world due to the extra-high calorie content in potatoes and maize.

As for language - you mention a bunch of proper nouns which is sort of like saying that Swedish contributed a lot to the development of the English language because there's a place called Västerbotten. Most of our language comes from a mix of Ancient Greek, Latin and then various introductions of other etymological trees through successive invasions and settlings on the British Isles. As for the idea of small states being governed under one body; hardly a new idea.

Greek democracy, The Roman Republic (seriously, go read some of Cicero's legal documents), The Holy Roman Empire, The Venetian Republic, The Milanese Republic, The Magna Carta... there were centuries of discontent and maneouvring around power structures in Europe long before America was ever discovered so it's not like the idea of rule by popular vote was a new idea.
 

imnotcrazy

There is ALWAYS meaning to my madness ®
Veteran
I didn't say anything, it was copy/pasted and sources given.

I also never implied that the Native Americans were the only influence on American culture

In fact, I only brought it up in response to:

I wasn't saying you called them savages mate, Huge used the word and I was responding to him.

I totally agree that most large native groups were basically non-hierarchical federations of smaller hierarchical groups.


I'm not sure DemonPigeon realized HUGE's use of the term "unorganized savages" was sarcasm. And he was justified in doing so considering this is exactly what the colonists and Custer thought of the Native American populous
 

BullDogUK

Member
It's cool man, it just tickles a bone when people start implying that all these cool ideas that we've managed to develop over thousands of years of struggle and strife in Europe were actually given to us by other cultures we had very little contact with.

It's like when people wonder if the Chinese 'discovered' America first. So what if they did? It doesn't change anything. Equally, just because a group of peoples had an awesome idea which is similar to something we've decided to do today, doesn't mean that we're copying them or they were somehow more prescient than others in the world. It's such a gross oversimplification of history :p
 

DemonPigeon

Member
Veteran
"

DID YOU KNOW THAT MANY OF THE GAMES YOU PLAY TODAY CAME FROM NATIVE AMERICANS? Canoeing, snowshoeing, tobogganing, lacrosse, relay races, tug-of-wars, and ball games are just a few of the games early Native Americans played and still enjoy today. Many youth groups such as Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Campfire and YMCA Guides have programs based largely on Native American crafts and lore.

DID YOU KNOW THAT MANY WORDS WE USE EVERY DAY CAME FROM NATIVE AMERICANS? Countless Native American words and inventions have become an everyday part of our language and use. Some of these include: barbecue, caribou, chipmunk, woodchuck, hammock, toboggan, skunk, mahogany, hurricane, and moccasin.


They placed emphasis and importance on:
,
Respect for Fellow Man ( No Prejudice),

no tranquilizers, drugs, alcohol, ulcers,


and no complete annihilation weapons (Hydrogen bomb)



I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was saying they weren't savages!

The Iriquios were exactly who I was reffering to!

Individual tribal groups were joined together as a federation. Which is exactly what you just said aswell!

But:

I'd say without urban communities, refridgeration and large food surpluses to support towns how could they even have the infrastructure to develope hydrogen bombs?
It wasn't that they decided not to use them... no one had the technology to develope them back then all, the idea would have seemed ridiculous.

There WERE drugs, where else did we get Tobacco from?

And ulcers are the result of a biotic infection, they definately had those, biotic infections can be found everywhere!

I don't think any group has ever been entirely free of prejuduce.


And just to play devil's advocate I'd say I don't play any of those games, I prefer Sid Meir ;-)
 

DemonPigeon

Member
Veteran
I didn't say anything, it was copy/pasted and sources given.

I also never implied that the Native Americans were the only influence on American culture

In fact, I only brought it up in response to:




I'm not sure DemonPigeon realized HUGE's use of the term "unorganized savages" was sarcasm. And he was justified in doing so considering this is exactly what the colonists and Custer thought of the Native American populous


It feels like we've all got our wires crossed :-S

Can we all just say that some of us like guns, some of us are scared of guns and that we can't really attribute many things clearly to one subset of people, we're all just people and originally spread from Africa into the rest of the world adapting as best we could.

Has anyone heard/read "A history of the World In 100 objects"?
They use 100 items from the british museum to look at cultural and technological developemens from all over the world from the earliest tools to modern credit cards.

Lots of things that are were developed in different areas

I suppose you could call it convergent social evolution.

And once an idea caught on it would usually be passed through the world by trade and migration.

I'm sure most people know the painting "The Wave" from the 30 views of mount Fuji, it seems so Japanese, yet the colours used were imported from spain and first developed in germany.

The Benine Bronzes, considered one of the most impressive pieces of casting, were made by africans using bronze bought from portugese sailors.

The egytians pharoahs included Dynasties who were black, greek and arab, and those were decedents of hellenic greeks who originally migrated to greece from Turkey.

The Knightly culture of dark age Britain and Europe in general owes much to Sarmatian tribes, lance weildign cavalry from central europe, made roman Auxillaries and given medical care by greek doctors, lead by german tribal groups, armoured useing modified french tribal armour and eventually they became part of a huge scandanavian empire.

The same thing happened in South America with Olmecs, and Aztecs and Mayans, Incas and the Moche which are my favourite because they had funerary Toby Jugs :p
 
I grew up with guns, I received my first for my 9th birthday, a single shot 4.10. I still have it to this day. when I was about 22 I was alone and a home invader broke into my house. all doors and windows were locked. He quickly knocked a window off its track and entered my home with a 45 cal hand gun. Lucky for me I had quick access to a hand gun and was able to grab it and confront the intruder. Ill spare you the details but he left in a hurry leaving his weapon behind. I honestly feel that having quick access to my gun saved my life that day.
 

DemonPigeon

Member
Veteran
Over here we don't have guns, the vast majority of our criminals don't have them either, nor do our police, I think we'd be worried about an arms race.

I'd quite like a Tazer for security but that's still non-lethal force.

I'm glad you lived :D
 

imnotcrazy

There is ALWAYS meaning to my madness ®
Veteran
It feels like we've all got our wires crossed :-S

Can we all just say that some of us like guns, some of us are scared of guns and that we can't really attribute many things clearly to one subset of people, we're all just people and originally spread from Africa into the rest of the world adapting as best we could.

Has anyone heard/read "A history of the World In 100 objects"?
They use 100 items from the british museum to look at cultural and technological developemens from all over the world from the earliest tools to modern credit cards.

Lots of things that are were developed in different areas

I suppose you could call it convergent social evolution.

And once an idea caught on it would usually be passed through the world by trade and migration.

I'm sure most people know the painting "The Wave" from the 30 views of mount Fuji, it seems so Japanese, yet the colours used were imported from spain and first developed in germany.

The Benine Bronzes, considered one of the most impressive pieces of casting, were made by africans using bronze bought from portugese sailors.

The egytians pharoahs included Dynasties who were black, greek and arab, and those were decedents of hellenic greeks who originally migrated to greece from Turkey.

The Knightly culture of dark age Britain and Europe in general owes much to Sarmatian tribes, lance weildign cavalry from central europe, made roman Auxillaries and given medical care by greek doctors, lead by german tribal groups, armoured useing modified french tribal armour and eventually they became part of a huge scandanavian empire.

The same thing happened in South America with Olmecs, and Aztecs and Mayans, Incas and the Moche which are my favourite because they had funerary Toby Jugs :p

Agreed bro, wires crossed..... difficult to determine the inflection of a statement when it is just words on a screen

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to DemonPigeon again"

KUDOS, RESPECT AND BLESSINGS MY BROTHERS
 

trichrider

Kiss My Ring
Veteran
ya'll can say you knew me when...

never register your weapons. remember that ccp is registration. all guns are registered if you go through NCIS background check. don't fall for the tripe they destroy those records...

gov. isn't fond of losing.
 

imnotcrazy

There is ALWAYS meaning to my madness ®
Veteran
You neglected to mention....

You neglected to mention....

Located at the bottom of the webpage your link directs to:

"This is a PARODY of the National Security Agency. This website has not been approved, endorsed, or authorized by the NSA or by any US Government agency."

Not that the website does not hold factual info, I definitely agree that it most certainly does. I just think people should be aware that the website is not affiliated with the US Government considering how close the address is to an actual Government controlled website/address.
 

BullDogUK

Member
"This is a PARODY of the National Security Agency. This website has not been approved, endorsed, or authorized by the NSA or by any US Government agency."

Completely correct! However there are numerous links to unclassified government documents, such as budget applications etc. which are quite revealing.
 

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